Blackmail

[SouthernBelle.GG]

Thalia,

I do understand where you're coming from in the need to want your relationship to work. We all want to love and be loved. I can even understand - to a point - why your wife would be reeling after finding out about the CDing and pics and such. To me, your wife has crossed the line, but if you're willing to go along, there's not much else to say.

I still can't help but think you're now going to stay with her out of fear instead of love. That's a hard life to live.

[Barbara Nicole]

Thalia
Wife's go through a form of the grieving process which include the 5 stages of grief . Your wife might have made her statements AND actions during the anger stage . SO's will say a LOT of things when they're in this anger phase.If you understand this ,you and her will be able to eventually coast down this very rocky road .If you understand the 5 steps ,you'll be better able to rationalise her actions ,and perhaps yours.Not one of us here can ,upon the little info provided , advise you to "get out ,she's a blackmailer " You re the only one who can do this ,as you know her .Don't forget you've dropped one hell of a bomb onto her . Just look at Karren Hutton's example of "5yrs +" Just remember there's more of us that don't post a great deal that have been through this and kept our relationships intact .Try and wiegh whether other than the blackmail comments whether she still respects you .Remember there's a final 5th stage =acceptance which doesn't necessarily really mean total acceptance of you as a CD but of the situation
Good luck

[cindym5_04]

Thalia,

I'll start by saying that I feel really bad for you being put in that situation. Now, here's my take on the whole thing:

1) I understand her being VERY hurt by your secret coming out. I think there is a high percentage of women that would feel the "hurt" feeling. It's fine to feel hurt.

2) People say things in anger. We all do it- that's fine.

3) Storing your photos and emails and telling you that you need to sign over property (whether it was acquired together or not, it doesn't matter) or she'll out you to your friends, family, and clientelle is fully illegal. That is blackmail and extortion. If she does proceed to out you (whether or not it ruins friendships and business), you can then throw a libel charge on top of it. DO NOT SIGN ANYTHING.

4) That's great that you are going to counseling together and that it seems to be helping. You need to also consult a lawyer. Do this now to be prepared in case something does happen. It's better to prepare yourself just in case, rather than waiting until it's too late.

5) Not to be critical of you, but to believe "she's not that type of person" is being very naive. She is already proving that she IS that type of person by storing things to hold against you in a safe deposit box- if you don't do what she wants.

6) Essentially this comes down to being a hostage in your own home. You have the right to be who you are. Depending on your state, crossdressing is not an illegal act. Should you have come out a long time ago to her? Yes. We can't change the past, but we can prepare for the future. The feeling that I get is that she is setting the table for your failure in the marriage.

The point has been made on the board so many times that we, as crossdressers, are very selfish. There are many times that I am in total agreement to that. There are the wives, girlfriends, or significant others that say "I'm not comfortable with you doing that" and lay ground rules. That's fine and understandable. There is always a line that's not to be crossed- whether it's with crossdressing or with business. From what you've told us, it sounds like that line HAS been crossed and with the threats of illegal activity, I personally couldn't stay around for that. I understand love greatly and I'm sure that you do love her and that she has love for you. If someone is threatening you with serious illegal activity and essentially threatening to ruin your life, where is the love and where is the trust? To me, it's apparent that there is none.

Just my $.02.

Good luck.

[DonnaT]

Geez Thalia, you need to rethink things and listen to some of the advice given here. Advice you asked for, BTW.

You say she won't out you? fine, then there's no need to sign things over to her.

You sign things over and I can almost guarantee she'll file for divorce within 6 months.

That will leave you with, what exactly?

And if she files for divorce, she's likely to blackmail you even further. A nice big monthly alimony check, or she'll tell your family, friends, associates, etc.

Granted she has a right to be angry, but you have a right to live without fear of loosing all you've worked so hard for.

Really, can you live the rest of your life wondering what she might do next.

What if she decided to take a lover, and holds your CDing as leverage so you won't object.

I'm sorry, but if she'll blackmail you for one thing, she's likey to blackmail you for another.

Head her off at the pass. Tell your friends, relatives, associates that she's trying to blackmail you for all your possessions just because you like to dress up once in a while.

Stand up an own yourself, don't let her own you.

[LA CINDY LOVE]

They say it is good to tell your wife that you are a crossdresser.........before you get married, not 5 10 or 15yrs down the road and when you do tell her the odds are not good for you at all.

Now you say you are going to try to stop dressing once again the odds are not good, most who try to stop........just come back it is very hard to do ...I have try myself.

No married CD wants his wife to out him to his Friends, work and family hell if I was face with that I would sign over the property too....... it is so easy for those who are not in your shoes to pass judgment.

This is why we marrieds CD do not tell are wifes, if it dose not work out the cost could be to great, crossdressing is very hard on a relationship.

You say you were married for 15yrs and for 15yrs you keep your wife from finding out..........you should have wrote a book, because most of us get caught with-in the first 2 yrs, I just do not feel that you should have told her
.......she was happy.

LA CINDY LOVE

[JulieC]

Lorileah: No, I don't like being held hostage; however, I have too much to lose if my cross dressing became public knowledge. ...

I'll vehemently agree with cindym5_04 above. What your wife is doing is illegal.

You can and, in the right moment should, counter her blackmail by noting that you will have no choice but to file a criminal complaint.

I'd be very, very direct with her. Blackmail is not a foundation for a successful marriage. Either the blackmail stops, or the counseling is for naught. Either she is serious about making the relationship work or she is not. You can offer her that seriousness by agreeing to boundaries that you both compromise on (not just her way or the highway) and live within them without question.

As to your sons that are grown; c'est la vie. They are adults. It would hurt if they turned their backs on you, but that's life.

As to your job and standing in the community; tough. Look, there's a damn good chance she's going to pull that trigger anyways.

If you can't get her to stop blackmailing you, the relationship is likely over. What I'd do, since she's going to pull that trigger anyways, is go on the offensive. Defang the blackmail. Inform your sons on your own. Inform your clients. Inform any friends. You have a MUCH better chance of retaining your sons, clients, and friends if you tell them on YOUR terms than if your wife goes blaring it out to the entire world on her terms. Before doing this, set aside some thousands of dollars such that your wife can not get access to it.

If you do this, your wife may go ballistic. In fact, I bet she will. In your shoes, I'd tell her "You left me no choice. It was better to tell these people on my terms than for you to inform them about a subject on which you are not yet knowledgeable."

This is your life. It's not hers. It's not your sons. It's not your clients. Its not your friends. Cut the woe is me song and start standing up for your life. FIGHT. It's the only chance you have of saving your marriage. Acting meek and buckling under every threat she tosses at you is a damned good way to undermine the marriage.

In approaching your clients, you might send out a mailing along these lines:

"Dear Mr./Ms. Smith,

Due to circumstances beyond my control information regarding my private life may become public in the near future. I wanted to take the opportunity to inform you that I have never allowed my private life to affect my professional life. I take your patronage of this practice seriously, and always act in your best interests regardless of any external factors.

In the United States today, there are more than ten million people who self identify as being transgendered. I am one of those millions. I am not a freak. I am not a criminal. I am human. If you would like more information regarding transgender topics, please see <insert resource>

I love my wife and children very much. I've always been faithful to them in every respect and will continue to be so. Similarly, I have always been faithful to professional ethics in my conduct with your patronage of this practice.

I recognize that some of you may not be willing to further consider your patronage of this practice given this knowledge. To you I give my thanks for your past patronage and I wish you the best in your future. For those of you who will be remaining with this office, I also offer my thanks and assurance that this office will continue as before, and nothing will change in any respect with regards to the conduct of business at this office. "

You don't need to go into details about how you are transgendered. It's a private subject. If, following this letter, your wife attempts to contact your clients with more information, call the police and have her arrested for harrassment.

For all the years I cross dressed and I kept my secret, I enjoyed it. Little did I know that something that I enjoyed so much would cause me so much pain.

What caused you so much pain isn't the crossdressing. It was not telling her before being married. You can't correct that now, but you should not attribute to crossdressing what is attributable to a failure to inform.

So many have told me to tell my family and friends about my crossdressing and hope for the best. If that was so easy, then why haven't so many of you done the same?

Nobody said it was easy. It's terrifying. For some, the outcome is incredibly bad. For some, the outcome is great. It is very hard to know in advance what the outcome will be.

But look at it this way; it's reasonably likely that your wife would have found your stash of clothes or some other evidence of your crossdressing eventually. This forum is full of stories of CDers getting caught. The only way one can be 100% sure of never being caught is to never crossdress or have any of the accoutrements of crossdressing. That of course is essentially impossible for a crossdresser.

Which would you rather have? Tell her yourself or have her discover on her own? Maybe she would have said nothing on discovery, and assumed it was another woman and started divorce proceedings right away. You've no idea how she would react to that knowledge.

It is incredibly selfish and self serving to not tell a spouse when there are no children involved. Not only is there substantial risk of discovery, but WHEN you die, she may still be alive (remember that on average women outlive men) and discover all of your clothes, makeup, etc. Then she'll have no one to turn to for answers. She'll never know the truth. Did you have a mistress? She'll spend the rest of her life possibly thinking you were cheating on her.

I don't profess to know the answers when their are children involved. If there are no children involved though, I feel very strongly that it is absolutely wrong to keep this from your wife.

They say it is good to tell your wife that you are a crossdresser.........before you get married, not 5 10 or 15yrs down the road and when you do tell her the odds are not good for you at all.

Now you say you are going to try to stop dressing once again the odds are not good, most who try to stop........just come back it is very hard to do ...I have try myself.

No married CD wants his wife to out him to his Friends, work and family hell if I was face with that I would sign over the property too....... it is so easy for those who are not in your shoes to pass judgment.

This is why we marrieds CD do not tell are wifes, if it does not work out the cost could be too great; crossdressing is very hard on a relationship.

You say you were married for 15yrs and for 15yrs you keep your wife from finding out..........you should have wrote a book, because most of us get caught with-in the first 2 yrs, I just do not feel that you should have told her
.......she was happy.

<assuming no kids involved>

Which is better? The wife finding out by accident or being told? You note that most of us get caught within the first two years. So, better to leave it to being caught than not telling up front?

Not telling is just staving off the inevitable, and potentially leaving a wife with a zillion questions unanswered after you die and she finds your stash.

[Karen564]

In my heart I don't think she will do this....I think it's just leverage to get me to not cross dress again.

Thalia,
This is why your not thinking correctly, because your using your heart, not your brain on this matter...

She has your Emails & pictures and that's plenty of ammo for her to use against you to hold you hostage..So there's absolutely no need for you to sign away your joint properties & sign that letter.....

There's only ONE explanation for why she wants you to do this, and that's because she WILL divorce you after the properties are solely in her name along with the notarized letter stating that those properties are not to be considered marriage assets...that's the final nail in the coffin..

So tell her she already has enough, she doesn't need anything else and see what she says, if she says she must have those properties to keep you from doing this again, then you will know right then & there she fully intends to divorce you very soon.. I'd bet my life on it..

If it was just a matter of putting her name on the properties, that's nothing, because in court, it would still be divided down the middle no matter what, but the biggest killer for you is signing that notarized letter...That would leave you out in the cold without a chance of ever fairly splitting your assets..

What your dealing with is a woman's scorn right now, shes playing it cool using sex as a tool to make you think everything will be fine & buying time until she has everything set up in her favor, after that, she Will go for your jugular in court..
My advise for you is see an very good divorce attorney NOW, before she gets the one you want..but chances are she's already done that, so I'm betting she has already put one on retainer..,

Again, You need to think with the right head on this, the big one, not the little one, and try to leave your heart out of this, it'll just mess you up..

Good Luck..Because your going to need it..

[Veronica75]

There is SO much good advice for you here, Thalia... but the most important should be reiterated:

-- DO NOT SIGN OVER ANYTHING

and you have two choices regarding her blackmailing you:

-- Just go ahead and out yourself before she does, she no longer has a weapon against you. Weather the consequences and get on with your life.

-- Record her conversations, get evidence she intends to blackmail you, and consider hiring a PI to see if there is additional dirt you can get on her. Let her know in no uncertain terms that if she outs you, her name will be dragged through the mud along with yours, and that the results for her will be at least as bad as for you. Blackmailers will pull the trigger on a pistol that will take down their hostage, but they typically will not pull the pin on a grenade that will blow them up too.


You need to protect yourself, no matter where the marriage goes. I wish you luck and hope you can work it out, but in case things don't go that way, get your ducks in a row just like your wife is clearly doing.

[cindym5_04]

I'll vehemently agree with cindym5_04 above. What your wife is doing is illegal.


In approaching your clients, you might send out a mailing along these lines:

"Dear Mr./Ms. Smith,

Due to circumstances beyond my control information regarding my private life may become public in the near future. I wanted to take the opportunity to inform you that I have never allowed my private life to affect my professional life. I take your patronage of this practice seriously, and always act in your best interests regardless of any external factors.

In the United States today, there are more than ten million people who self identify as being transgendered. I am one of those millions. I am not a freak. I am not a criminal. I am human. If you would like more information regarding transgender topics, please see <insert resource>

I love my wife and children very much. I've always been faithful to them in every respect and will continue to be so. Similarly, I have always been faithful to professional ethics in my conduct with your patronage of this practice.

I recognize that some of you may not be willing to further consider your patronage of this practice given this knowledge. To you I give my thanks for your past patronage and I wish you the best in your future. For those of you who will be remaining with this office, I also offer my thanks and assurance that this office will continue as before, and nothing will change in any respect with regards to the conduct of business at this office. "

You don't need to go into details about how you are transgendered. It's a private subject. If, following this letter, your wife attempts to contact your clients with more information, call the police and have her arrested for harrassment.

Thanks, Julie.

I think that's pretty much the perfect letter that could be written too for this particular incident as well.

[JulieC]

she has your emails & pictures and that's plenty of ammo for her to use against you to hold you hostage..so there's absolutely no need for you to sign away your joint properties & sign that letter.....

There's only one explanation for why she wants you to do this, and that's because she will divorce you after the properties are solely in her name along with the notarized letter stating that those properties are not to be considered marriage assets...that's the final nail in the coffin..

So tell her she already has enough, she doesn't need anything else and see what she says, if she says she must have those properties to keep you from doing this again, then you will know right then & there she fully intends to divorce you very soon.. I'd bet my life on it..

[size="4"]Bingo![/size]

This is FANTASTIC way to call her bluff. Major kudos Karen, and Thalia, take this advice. Her blackmail has plenty enough teeth in it without the properties for what she purports it is for; to keep you in line. She doesn't need the properties. She needs them for one reason; to divorce you.

I strongly agree with others. Start thinking with your big head.

[MissConstrued]

Support ???
Oh my god - you even insult the man calling him an fool , you call his wife a bitch , insinuate she,s adulterous and to include the daddy pants comment to which I find a cave man like notion an insult towards any person who may be emotionally unstable . Again , wheres the support ? Is,nt that what this websites about ??

If "support" is all about making people feel better, then no, I suppose I'm not very good at that. Maybe I lack bedside manner. Should we all join hands and sing campfire songs? Group hug? Perhaps I misread the OP, but it looked as though he was seeking advice, not a group hug.

If a swift kick in the pants from me and others is enough impetus to hire a lawyer, and save himself a lot of grief down the road, then it's worth it. Thalia is about to be bent over and dry-raped, and all you're offering is a bit of lube.

I stand by my assertions regarding the wife. I have a number of friends who are/were private investigators. This type of story is quite common. The woman will hire the PI to investigate her husband -- for anything at all that can be used to get her more out of a divorce. Then she'll put on this big drama over being "betrayed" when all along she's been banging the gardener or the pool boy. I may be wrong, but I am drawing on some experience here. I hope I'm wrong, in fact, but we do no one any favors by pretending it's not a possibility.

I wholly stand by my assertion that blackmail is not a heat of passion act. It's an entirely rational and calculated maneuver.

[leslie ann]

Ill have to agree with MissConstrued on this one !! i would NOT sign anything ide take her on vacation !

[Thalia]

FAIL

Threats in the heat of anger are one thing but as MissConstrued said, these are calculated actions in the cold light of day. She's obtained a CD full of photos (we still haven't been told how incidentally) and put them with printed emails in a safe deposit box. She's having legal documents of ownership drawn up. She's clearly thinking and planning ahead here and the stage is being set. And the problem is that she has the initiative here and it's time to start catching up.

While I can understand an emotional response, lashing out as it were, at first, this has now gone way beyond that.

Her'e how she got the photos. She discovered a key on my bureau which was to my 'secret' mailbox where my clothes and correspondence was mailed. We discussed this mailbox and I told her that the year's rental was up and I had to turn in the key or renew the rental. I decided to turn in the key and she came with me. Well, in the box was an envelope containing the cds of my transformation. She wanted to see them and I did not get them back.

[Berinthia]

It's all about Priorities. I'm not sure if crossdressing is a divorcible offense, it's not like you slept with another woman, maybe your wife is feeling betrayed, just because she wants you to burn in hell for a bit doesn't mean she doesn't love you, Do you love her more than your cd parties? More than your job? More than your reputation?
Everyone here is assuming Thalia's wife is the bitch. Maybe Thalia is the bitch. We haven't heard Thalia's wfe's side of this.
As your attorney, my advice would be to protect your own butt and if you've got to get out, get out with as much intact as you can. But it's sad, it seems to me you weren't acting in the best interests of your marrige for a long time, women don't like to be made into fools, you must have known that.
Anyway, I've never been married, It's funny all the married people here seem so cold and ruthless!!!

[Tora]

GET A LAWYER NOW. FIRST THING IN THE MORNING. IN MICHIGAN We HAVE A GROUP OF LAWYERS, ADAM AMERICAN DIVORCE ASSOCIATION for MEN. Get this help NOW. You set the ground rules. A laywer from your state, who knows the local rules.

[Ralph]

If a swift kick in the pants from me and others is enough impetus to hire a lawyer, and save himself a lot of grief down the road, then it's worth it. Thalia is about to be bent over and dry-raped, and all you're offering is a bit of lube.

Preach it, sister. I worry that getting outed would harm my personal and professional life, but even I wouldn't let an extortionist bleed me for the rest of my life. Refuse to sign over and be prepared for some serious spin control on any damage she tries to do, but don't let her call the shots. I do like the idea of keeping something with you at all times that you can record on, so you can get proof she's trying to blackmail you.

And don't forget, if you ever need character witnesses you can call on all of us!

ralph

[AKAMichelle]

No, she won't 'out' me.

I hope for your sake you are right. You may be betting your live on this.

[carhill2mn]

Thalia, you have been given lots of great advice. I can only add one thing from my recent divorce situation: for years my wife (now ex) had talked, yelled, screamed "what will your daiughters think; your sons-in-law won't associate with you; J... will not let you see/take care of your grandchildren. etc". You get the picture.
Well, my wife got a very big unpleasant surprise! When she told them we were getting a divorce and that I was a CD, they really only were upset about the divorce. They didn't really care that I was a CD. After we told my youngest daughter and husband, my wife said "well, I just wasted 20 years of protecting you" or words to that effect.
Your wife is putting you in an untenable situation. You must protect yourself!

[trisha11]

Wow, you are in a very tough spot. I let me soon to be exwife use my crossdressing against me in my custody battle for our son. I did not want it exposed any more than it had been already. I was afraid she would tell my friends, my family, and my coworkers. I caved to her and I regret it today. I know where your coming from and know that you want to do the right thing and make it work but in my opinion she should not be using this against you. She should not have had to take it to this level. Are you a different person because you crossdress? Are you not the same man she fell in love with? What is so wrong with you just because you crossdress. It does not change the person you were and are today.

All I can say is that I wish I would have been more strong, stood up to my exwife more, and not let her use my crossdressing as a tool to get what she wanted. If you let her do this she will continue to use this against you to the day you die.

Is this what you want?
trisha

[Lee Andrews]

It's been three months and it isn't getting better, only worse. Now she has me transferring ownership of two of our properties into her name and I'm to sign a notarized letter that if the marriage should end, these two properties are not to be considered marital property and are to remain her's only. If I do not do so, she will expose me to my family (it's our second marriage) and my clients. Unfortunately, she got her hands on a cd with pictures (very incriminating) which was taken following a transformation) and she has all my clothes. To make things worse, before I could erase e-mails, she got to my computer and printed all of them.. She now has these in a safe deposit box and I am certain she will use all this if I fail in any way to comply with her wishes.

What do you all think of all of this?

Sad to say she is your "best friend", she is far from it. Blackmail under any circumsance is wrong and coming from the person you love is a huge blow. I could see her making you sleep on the couch, not talk to you for awhile or even threaten to get a divorce for this. What she is doing is cold and deliberate. Sign property over or even going to the trouble of rounding up all e-mails and pictures and putting them in a safe deposit box. I'm sorry but this is wrong on so many levels.

She will out you when the time is right for her. This is not being done out of anger. Anger is usually not very rational and she sounds very rational and calculating. Who thinks to change a property over and accompany it with a letter stating it is not 'marital property' unless they had other plans. The pictures should be more than enough to keep you in line . Your defence stating she doesn't need any more, she is fine. Why couldn't she use some more money or property for herself and her kids. Can never have enough.

Hopefully you can stand your ground and protect yourself. Really think about this, in your heart do you think IF someone really loved you, would she pull these actions and threats of blackmail on you?. If you do then have a happy life and I hope you do not regret it later. I couldn't imagine the person I loved doing that to me but to each their own.

For the couple of others who got mad at the responses, check the last line in the original post. Your going to get these replies, you asked.

[FluffyPersian]

Thalia,

I'm a GG and usually sympathetic to the wives' situations. Really, I usually understand where they are coming from.

But in this case, your wife is truly out to take you for all you've got. Please, please listen to all the advice given here. These people are right.

People do not get terms like "joint marital property" out of thin air. They get them from lawyers. She has already seen a tough divorce lawyer, and is looking for ways to get everything she can from you before she files.

The counseling is just so she can tell the judge that she tried her best.

I know you don't want to believe this, but I'm completely certain this is correct. I know you really want to believe that your wife isn't like this, but...she is.

Please be realistic and protect yourself.

[kathtx]

It's funny all the married people here seem so cold and ruthless!!!

Nah, we're a bunch of hopeless romantics. It's just that those of us who are happily married can't imagine our wives blackmailing us, and see that's something's clearly "off" with Thalia's wife. Those who are unhappily married, or divorced, well, they recognize the signs of oncoming disaster.

Anyone who's been married more than a month knows that marriages have their ups and downs. The good marriages are those where the ups and downs are negotiated with patience, understanding, and humor, and don't devolve into mind games, threats, and ultimatums.

[Shelly67]

If "support" is all about making people feel better, then no, I suppose I'm not very good at that. Maybe I lack bedside manner. Should we all join hands and sing campfire songs? Group hug? Perhaps I misread the OP, but it looked as though he was seeking advice, not a group hug.

If a swift kick in the pants from me and others is enough impetus to hire a lawyer, and save himself a lot of grief down the road, then it's worth it. Thalia is about to be bent over and dry-raped, and all you're offering is a bit of lube.

I stand by my assertions regarding the wife. I have a number of friends who are/were private investigators. This type of story is quite common. The woman will hire the PI to investigate her husband -- for anything at all that can be used to get her more out of a divorce. Then she'll put on this big drama over being "betrayed" when all along she's been banging the gardener or the pool boy. I may be wrong, but I am drawing on some experience here. I hope I'm wrong, in fact, but we do no one any favors by pretending it's not a possibility.

I wholly stand by my assertion that blackmail is not a heat of passion act. It's an entirely rational and calculated maneuver.

Has anyone replying to this thread considered the responses given to be intimidating or aggressive ? I think if you ask the originator you will certainly be in for a shock believe me . Tell you what , don,t bother - he's enough to deal with already . Thats all I'm gonna say .

[kathtx]

Has anyone replying to this thread considered the responses given to be intimidating or aggressive?

I've found most responses have been too quick to jump to conclusions. It's completely warranted to suggest that Thalia should not sign anything and that she should be prepared for the worst. On the other hand -- as I think one poster may have pointed out -- it is still possible that these blackmail tactics are simply Thalia's wife's fumbling, desperate attempt to manipulate Thalia into stopping her dressing, and not some setup for a nasty divorce. The truth is, none of us really know.

Thalia, if you're still reading the deluge of responses to your query, don't give up yet on your marriage, but please, please do protect yourself. One thing you should have learned from all the responses is that your wife's financial "blackmail" is not normal even from wives who are intolerant of crossdressing. So hope for the best, but be on your guard.

One other thing: is there anyone among your friends and family to whom you can open up about this? Someone who knows both you and your wife, who can be trusted to be understanding of your crossdressing; a sibling, a friend, a minister? Folks on this board are well-intentioned but we don't know you and your wife, and some here bring baggage from their own bad experiences, and some, like me, who have good marriages might be over-optimistic. Don't bear this all on your own shoulders. If it goes badly, or even if it goes well, you're going to need friends you can talk to about it.

[Sheila]

Did nobody learn a damn thing from this thread by [SIZE="6"]Jess_cd32 ?[/SIZE]