Passing.....but what do you bring to the game.

[Gabrielle Hermosa]

I worry about the day when I may need my increased physical strength to fend off an attacker or something. Probably just paranoia about venturing out en femme, I'm sure.

martial arts!

Actually, I took martial arts training in the mid 90's. Excellent discipline and my exercise routine still incorporates several of the warm up exercises from the class. I'm way out of practice now, but can still handle my own if need be (against an untrained fighter, anyway). Just don't ever want to have to do that en femme!

On a side note, our master used to bring in street fighters for us to practice on during sparring night from time to time. We trained in a very tough neighborhood and these guys were very intimidating to go up against. We sparred full contact - there were not points, it was an all-out match (stopped by the master if need be). Amazing how easily defeated most of these street fighters were. Very sloppy fighters. Oh, it hurt when they landed a punch, don't get me wrong (got a lot of black eyes, and broken bones even), but they were never very good fighters. Good to know when fighting in real life circumstances.

[Nicki B]

Let take a look at Asian Cd's, almost all Asian Cd's pass very good, they have what I call a soft look....slim built, soft voice and look with a nice height....they have a lot going for them to help them to pass.

But they don't often pass to other Asians - who often find it much harder to gender Caucasians.. It depends from where you're looking.

I'm pretty much asset-less.. Lol.

I guess I would say the fact that I dont have much that stands out.

IME, a 'neutral' canvas often makes it much, much easier to change the look drastically.

Passing fully, in any way, is impossible without transitioning, and even if you do that, it's not guaranteed, especially the older you get.

So you can only pass if you transition???? I know plenty of girls who have transitioned who might disagree with you...

Precisely how are you defining 'transition'? To me, it simply means living fulltime in your necessary gender..

[Patricia1]

Passing - the gold standard for crossdressers. Dita & Kim did a great job in summarizing what we need to do to tone down our "shortcomings". Obviously, the fewer male genetic features you have that make you stand out as a man will serve you well in passing. There are some things you can do to compensate but frequently the bar is just set too high. The most important intangible thing you have going for you is, of course, attitude. If you feel you belong, most times people will just look right past you or just shrug. Smiling puts people off their guard & is disarming. Smile as much as you can but don't overdo it. Look at other women and smile & nod. Do not look at men. They don't need any encourgaement. Play down your male features. Nail polish helps large hands but keep them curled as much as you can. Just go about your business and other people will do the same. I think I'm lucky to have soft features and a somewhat "pretty" face with a feminine bust. Compare & contrast with the females you know & you'll have a fighting chance to "pass". Just remember - with most of us it's fourth & long.

[Melanie R]

I have been out in public as Melanie for over 28 years. I do not think about passing but put my energy into trying to be the woman I am between my ears. Sometimes I enjoy educating others about our wonderful community. Many times I just want to either with my wife or alone blend in to be seen as just another aging woman who dresses like most other women. There have been instances of passing such as when my wife and Melanie went on a 7 day cruise together with no male clothes and Melanie 24/7. We were put at a table for six at the 8 PM dining time in the dining room with two couples from Scotland. Almost immediately they asked if we were sisters. Yes, we are sisters. They noticed our wedding rings and asked where our husbands were. No just the two of us wanting to enjoy 7 days together. No more questions except about where we were going on shore excursions, etc. Of course I also recall the times when I was "read" and asked why do you want to dress like a woman and all the other questions usually asked from inquiring minds.

So much of passing is your own acceptance of yourself and also trying to blend in with the other women you encounter when you are out in public.

[Sarah Doepner]

I tend to forget the slights, the "sir's", the stares and double takes. I laugh at myself and try not to question any more my motivation for doing this and just do it the best I can. I'm described myself before as being too tall, with big hands, nose and square face, but I try to enjoy myself.

I may not pass very well, but if I can pass by before they start to talk about me, that may be good enough.

[SweetCaroline]

I think plain and simple, it's the smile. There's a huge difference between a male smile and a woman's smile.

If you're looking for one physical aspect that anyone of us can achieve, I think that's it.

[vikki2020]

At 5' 6", my height works well for me, but my main asset has to be my legs.Attitude is also important, and to tell the truth, the shorter the skirt, the better my attitude!Blending helps, but when I go out in a longer skirt, I just don't have the same feeling.Maybe the legs are my camouflage, and I can use them to hide the parts that aren't that femme.

[Sophie_C]

How many of us have seen a woman and thought to our self she looks manly.....but we know that she was woman just because of the way that she carried her self.... now this is the point that Dita has made.......and a very good one.

Now if this woman who looks manly can do it their's no reason why we Cd's can not do it, like Tracy said " the secret to passing is to blur your own gender to look more like the other" that is why you have to take GG 101, like a lot of Cd's do and say you have to study women, watch women and learn how women act and then you have to practice.

I do not believe that you have to go through transitioning to fully pass.....I have seen some who have and pass very good and some who do not.....but I have also seen some Cd's who pass very good....and a lot who do not.

Now if you have more feminine asset then male then you are off to a good start......but if you walk like a man, act like a man and think like a man...in a dress...then guess what?


LA CINDY LOVE

Nope, I fully disagree.

Eve Salvail, a model with her notoriously shaved head in the 1990s still looked feminine with that, because her neck was feminine, the angles and details of her head were feminine, her lips, cheeks, etc - were all feminine, all a result of the estrogen that ran through her veins. Your underlying body is so strongly a part of what you are, that it'll always stand out.

But, being fair as ever, I challenge you to bring me an example of a girl who has not transitioned who looks 100% "passable." IMO, without biological changes, there is no way a woman can ever come off fully as a man (as I just showed you) and no way a man can come off fully as a woman. Oh, they can try and be part of the way there, but you're always going to have a tremendous amount of the population instinctively knowing "that isn't a woman" since we're wired to just know those things.

[kellycan27]

Small in stature, girly figure (implants and hormones) small hands and feet,long hair...

[LA CINDY LOVE]

Sophie you said early in one of your post " Passing fully, in any way, is impossible without transitioning, and even if you do that , it's not guaranteed, especially the older you get......but to say their is no way that a crossdresser can pass.....is not only unfair but it is not true I have seen and meet a few Cd's who not only pass fully but live 24/7 as a women,

You need to understand that their are some Cd's who are that good that they do not need to go through transitioning to pass.

LA CINDY LOVE

[Sophie_C]

Sophie you said early in one of your post " Passing fully, in any way, is impossible without transitioning, and even if you do that , it's not guaranteed, especially the older you get......but to say their is no way that a crossdresser can pass.....is not only unfair but it is not true I have seen and meet a few Cd's who not only pass fully but live 24/7 as a women,

You need to understand that their are some Cd's who are that good that they do not need to go through transitioning to pass.

LA CINDY LOVE

I am being fair. Give me an example and that'll be it.

You can dig up anyone in the course of history, anywhere in the world, anywhere on the internet. Even if you want to spend weeks or months working on it, go right ahead.

I have never seen a crossdresser who did not transition, who was passable. I've seen some who have done a fantastic job, but even the best of the best will be noticeable to many, many people.

Don't get me wrong, I would love to be proven wrong (and know how someone could pull it off), but there's always countless things the body gives away.

So, saying "some Cd's who are that good that they do not need to go through transitioning to pass" proves nothing. You're just repeating what you said on the previous post. Showing me it, will. So, go right ahead if you're that certain, since it should be rather easy to prove, no?

[curse within]

I don't get it?? I'll take a stabb at it but I am sure I'll miss the point..

Ok so you say most CDers want to pass.. I beg to differ, but that's soley my opinion.Let me elaberate if you will..,,, because I really think I am missing the point.

First off ,no offence I respect you and your opinion and I am not out for arguement sakes.

One, most CDers are not out to pass, where did you get that info from? Most here yes I agree. However most Transexuals are , average Cders are not out to live their life as a female let alone try to pass as one. This takes years in the making and is something that takes time and needs to be enhanced.......( most mind you).. However some do relize at a young age thus promoteing less effort ..

Two why would you want to pass ? Other than doing just that what have you proved? You tricked mother nature?,, I am sorry as I am sure I will get negetive responses from this,, I just don't understand unless of course you are a Transexual and you know you where born as the wrong sex..Nothing wrong with that all you Transexuals so no need to get pi**ed this was posted in the mtf forum ..

[noeleena]

Hi . some interesting info here .
i dont see many andro.s here .. so . there are a few of us . yet for some of us how are we seen .. do we. ill just use the word (( pass )) how do we live .. as a male or female . for me i am not a dresser or a transsexual. allways andro .. wired both male & female . i never saw my self as male . allthough my body said in many ways male.. yet passable as a female .. i am not talking about a young girl . yet i was told i was different . a woman who knew me from the 60.s .. i was told that . two years ago . plus a guy i worked for 4 odd years ago . same thing .
so having said that . its been there all my life .. not some thing i strived for. just me ...
Now i live as me a woman .. for me the most important detail is being accepted .
how i walk . & manerisms . make up most of the time nil . just lippy . what i do see is . i am open . i think as a woman . my attatude is i am a part of our community . being a part of that . being in women.s groups .. no changeing from one to the other . being natural .,. just being that other woman . i have been told i pass.. yet i dought it . may be i do . just not the looks side of things .. you see there is more going on that we miss . in being a woman well some of us any way
. i was out walking on sunday with dejarn our grand kid . i said morning to 15 people . most of the women said hi . .. get this. with smiles so normal a greeting. a few of the men said hi . some i got a mumbled morning .. quite a bit different . so what is it . women talk to me . some men cant . thats the difference.. why .. they have never seen me or know me ..yet the women oh so different ...i wear a skirt . justa winter top . with a jacket boots . for out walking . so i must pass . no prob.s ..what youll see here is we as women do things differentlly .. so many of the comments here are right .. some times.. dare i say it.. ..you need to be a woman to see what really is going on ...remember i see it from both sides ..does not mean i.v. got it all right .just some .... any way a thought ........
...noeleena...

[LA CINDY LOVE]

Sorry Sophie, but I do not have any photos of those Cd's and they are not high fashion models so there photos would not be on the Internet and if I did have photos how would you know it was of them?... there are always exception's to the rule.

No I am not saying most Cd's want to Pass But what I am trying to say is what do you have as a Cd bring to the table to help to pass if that is what to work for.....but a lot of Cd's are in the closet because they feel that they can not pass and I do not feel a CD is out to pass just to fool mother nature.

LA CINDY LOVE

[curse within]

La Cindy, I know what you mean but you have really touched on something that really should have meaning ..I feel anyways..Off course my opinion and way of thinking is not to apreciated here..

To start , the biggest subject in this part of the forum is the on going effort to pass or to go out while dressed and pass.. Now common sense tells us the better we pass the more of a pleasent outing we will encounter, correct?

So given the above the question is ,,do we want to pass because of our desire to dress and be seen as a female to lesson the odds of a hate crime? I would think the answer would be yes , but many of us can not pass because growing up and living most of our lifes as males , nature has gifted us our male features in time..

Now if you have lived you life as a female from a very young age chances are you would have no problem passing. I know I am not telling you something you don't already know but within the spectrume and ALL due respect to those who fall into the spectrume, this is where the labels come into play..

A crossdresser is not likely to pass although some really do a great job at it, A T.S. is more likely to pass depending upon the amout of supression with acceptance through out the T.S.'s life .. A Crossdresser would more likley become a T.S. later in their life when it becomes to depressing to continue to live thier life as a male. So to me when reffering to a crossdresser , is simply reffering to a person who has a fetish with the clothing of the sex not born as. This person has no desire to become female or go out dressed to pass ..

Thats just my opinion Thanks Cindy for the interesting thread

[LA CINDY LOVE]

Curse Within that is also what I hear about crossdressers just a fetish to wear women clothing, dose not want to be a woman and dose not dress to pass, also they are usually straight males..........So are we really crossdressers if we want to pass.

LA CINDY LOVE

[curse within]

La Cindy, I was curious to know tha myself ( not out placeing labels )..But it is a damn good question " why do we want to pass"? If you are just a crossdresser ( by you not saying you in general ),,why would you want to pass or go out to be seen if crossdressing is a fetish.. I am sure there are many reason as to why this thread was started... I am interested in seeing some of the post for the reasons why some want to pass..

Thanks La Cindy

[tricia_uktv]

La Cindy, I was curious to know tha myself ( not out placeing labels )..But it is a damn good question " why do we want to pass"? If you are just a crossdresser ( by you not saying you in general ),,why would you want to pass or go out to be seen if crossdressing is a fetish.. I am sure there are many reason as to why this thread was started... I am interested in seeing some of the post for the reasons why some want to pass..

Thanks La Cindy

Because we care about it and we want to do it to the best of our ability. We want to get as close to the dream as we can. We maybe have a chance to get there fully if we transition, but that's a big step with no guarantee.

Oh, my best feature? I have the body of a supermodel. Skinny guys do have some advantages.

[Carly D.]

I don't get it?? I'll take a stabb at it but I am sure I'll miss the point..

Ok so you say most CDers want to pass.. I beg to differ, but that's soley my opinion.Let me elaberate if you will..,,, because I really think I am missing the point.

First off ,no offence I respect you and your opinion and I am not out for arguement sakes.

One, most CDers are not out to pass, where did you get that info from? Most here yes I agree. However most Transexuals are , average Cders are not out to live their life as a female let alone try to pass as one. This takes years in the making and is something that takes time and needs to be enhanced.......( most mind you).. However some do relize at a young age thus promoteing less effort ..

Two why would you want to pass ? Other than doing just that what have you proved? You tricked mother nature?,, I am sorry as I am sure I will get negetive responses from this,, I just don't understand unless of course you are a Transexual and you know you where born as the wrong sex..Nothing wrong with that all you Transexuals so no need to get pi**ed this was posted in the mtf forum ..

Passing for me would be THE it of show for me.. do I want to pass?? that would be nice but on the rare occasion I would like to try to wear makeup to be able to give that extra effort to pass.. however to my own self be true, I don't like makeup and don't have any eye makeup, just lipstick and nail polish, which doesn't sway anyones opinion of whether you pass or not.. hmm.. lost my train there... anyway as far as acting fem, I don't think fem is my attributes as fem.. I'm not even close to being fem even when dressed.. it's a strange thing for me.. I'm not typical cross dresser in that respect.. I don't want to think that passing is important but to go out without a wig or whatever to try to pass would be a mistake... or would it be?? I would like to try to wear what I want, which would be to dress full from the waste down but from there up be wearing normal male attire.. but in podunk Ne. that would be akin to a good beating by the local tough guy club.. cowboys, y'all..

[curse within]

La Cindy,

I am sorry if I have taken control over your thread but I really have a interest here..That being how many are really willing to do as you asked in the O.P. what do you bring to the game?..

I would like to thank those who have answered ..To be fair I will answer on my own question.. Yes I have tried make-up and wig but never left the comfort of my home.. question at that time ...Could I pass...Maybe ,,, but seriously doubt it... Would I want to? Great question as I thought through the pink fog ....No...thoughts ran through my mind all the what if's...What if some guys found me attractive ( doubt that ) but what if? How would I handle that? I'd have to hurt them ...answer.. I thought if I went out I would be asking for trouble ..Just the clothing I had on was asking for trouble.. Hey being honest...old school maybe...everyone should dress how they feel fit but I was beyond that..

[LA CINDY LOVE]

Curse

I have meet and seen all kinds of Cd's at the clubs, I have meet a lot that only go out to clubs because they do not pass......they do not have that much to bring to the game........but they are out of the closet, there are a lot of Cd's who are in the closet who bring more to the game them they know........but they stay in the closet.....the difference here is not game but confidence.

Every Cd's can go out to clubs if you have game or not, but if you want to go out and about in the day........this is were you need some game, confidence, attitude or the gift of not caring what people think or say.

It come down to just what is it that you as a CD want to do.

LA CINDY LOVE

[Sweet Cindy]

Head up, shoulders back and when you walk, try to imagine you're lighter than air. Women move so differently and it's hard to emulate. I think that's one of the hardest parts of passing.

I'm of slim build, short and have high cheekbones but overall my face can be pretty masculine. So attitude and movement are key.

[curse within]

La Cindy , I have to admit going to a club has crossed my mind and please don't get me wrong anyone, I am very happy for those who do get the courage and leave the comfort of home, be it a club or just a drive.

Not that I am chicken that I will be made,,no,,,, and not that I deny myself any urges to be seen.. Just thinking it out , do I want xdressing friends ? No ..not in preson, online yes ,miles away never seen great but not that close.

I think I have learned to deal with my dressing to keep it just that..My dressing.. I have grown to keep it private without the urges to go out .. This is not a mean statement in any way .. I could have a crossdressing friend and not even know it as many have no ideal to me... So I really do not bring nothing to the game I suppose if it came down to it..

[Deidra Cowen]

I know a totally passable CD that works as a guy, no surgery or hormones. Elaine from NC. Not going to say her last name here on a open forum but people that go to SCC probably know who I am talking about and for sure a bunch of us in Atlanta know her since she comes here a lot.

The girl passes...flat out...voice, looks, mannerisms...the whole package.

I see a good number that pass on looks, but most of them have male voices...so in all fairness they don't pass totally but are darned close!

Go to Be-All or SCC...at those conventions some of the girls will amaze ya! They are the minority but out there...and no I not am talking FT girls. PTers

I am being fair. Give me an example and that'll be it.

You can dig up anyone in the course of history, anywhere in the world, anywhere on the internet. Even if you want to spend weeks or months working on it, go right ahead.

I have never seen a crossdresser who did not transition, who was passable. I've seen some who have done a fantastic job, but even the best of the best will be noticeable to many, many people.

Don't get me wrong, I would love to be proven wrong (and know how someone could pull it off), but there's always countless things the body gives away.

So, saying "some Cd's who are that good that they do not need to go through transitioning to pass" proves nothing. You're just repeating what you said on the previous post. Showing me it, will. So, go right ahead if you're that certain, since it should be rather easy to prove, no?

[Nicki B]

I have never seen a crossdresser who did not transition, who was passable. I've seen some who have done a fantastic job, but even the best of the best will be noticeable to many, many people.

I have - but most of them eventually go on to transition (by my definition, that's living fulltime as a woman - what is yours, taking hormones?). I'm not going to post names or photos, because they're not members here - and photos can't ever tell you who 'passes' anyway. It's much more about what one projects from inside.

It's worth remembering that passing is understood in different ways by many here - perhaps you'd give your definition?

And finally, IMHO, passing is over-rated.