Stereo types

[Lisa Golightly]

Your logic is flawed. Too bad they don't still have polls here. I think you'd find out that at least 75% of this forum disagrees with you.

That doesn't mean she's wrong.

[DaphneGrey]

Surely, by expressing such concern all you show is YOU think it's important... Which says a lot about yourself.

(No Daphne, I don't mean you.


A point of order - Berdache is originally arab, meaning 'catamite', but was used in Middle Ages Europe to describe a 'man/woman'. It was most likely brought to the New World by the Spanish. It is widely rejected as a description, by native americans, as being offensive?

This is very true, however according to the history I have studied, the the word in it's stated context was used by the Dutch. Also Berdache today is used by NA gay and transgendered individuals. We no longer find it offensive. There are many words Tribe to Tribe to describe the same condition.

I don't mean to sound snobish it is just that the two spirit movement is quite dear to me, and thank you so much for your post.

Your logic is flawed. Too bad they don't still have polls here. I think you'd find out that at least 75% of this forum disagrees with you.

Logic is not subject to public opinion, my post is my opinion. If you dissagree that's fine, but this is how I feel and what I think, I really do not care if anyone agrees with me.

I broke out of one closet, I don't want to wind up In another.

[battybattybats]

Daphne, I agree but it was also western culture that destroyed the native Indians ..The native Idians had wealth but of a different sort.. They also had values to each other in the tribe ( soceity ) ..

Tiwi Islands (part of Australia) http://aboriginalrights.suite101.com..._homosexuality (emphasis in bold is mine)

Yimpininni - Sistergirls

"Sistergirls" has become a general term for transgender and transsexual men. But in the Tiwi Islands, it's a whole culture unto itself. There are 70 sistergirls living on the islands, and the numbers are growing every year. In that small community, Sistergirls account for a whopping 4% of the population.

Tonga crossdressers are respected, a crossdresser arranged the royal marriage celebrations.

Samoa has it's 'third sex' the Fa'fa'fine.

In Europe there was once greater TG acceptance. The Cybeline faith of the mediteranean were TSs for example. The Scythians had Transgender shamans/priests (as noted by Herodotus) as did many many cultures.

It wasnt that the wealthy and powerful were allowed to get away with being TG, but that being TG was not just accepted but often raised you in status wealth and power!

As such vilifying outlawing condemning and destroying TG as well as Gay Bi and Lesbian traditions was standard practice amongst colonial powers to demolish local power and place it all into the colonial systems of government and official religion/s.

[Jenny Brown]

Originally Posted by DaphneGrey
Who cares if someone thinks your gay! Who really cares if they think all crossdressers are gay? Does it really matter? Think about it for a second, are closed minded people going to like you all of a sudden once they find out your not gay? Hey that she male over there is supercool because I just found out that HeShee is not gay! It must be homophobia, frankly because it doesn't make much sense otherwise.

Logic is not subject to public opinion, my post is my opinion. If you dissagree that's fine, but this is how I feel and what I think, I really do not care if anyone agrees with me. I broke out of one closet, I don't want to wind up In another.

Ok, fine then. You're entitled to your "opinion" even if it makes no sense, as I am to mine. Works for me.

[curse within]

Batty interesting link about the Island...I just wonder how much longer that culture will remain until it to is influenced..

[battybattybats]

Batty interesting link about the Island...I just wonder how much longer that culture will remain until it to is influenced..

Well in Samoa the Fa'fa'fine traditions survive despite the strong christian missionary presence. Tonga too. The Tiwi Islands are claiming back their TG traditions.

They have to struggle to keep these traditions. The influence is already there. Transphobia spreads when it is not oppossed. And Indiginous peoples have the same struggles with same-sex relationship traditions including same-sex marriage traditions, with the loss of traditional religious traditions, cultural traditions and loss of languages.

One recent example was from the Indiginous Australian tv program Living Black on SBS about the Indiginous participants at this years Gay and Lesbian Mardi Gras where one person mentioned the impact on him of being told being gay was wrong in his culture by his tribal elders only to when studying the subject learn that there were recorded Dreaming stories of gay and transgender people, traditions that were his birthright. But this had been lost to the elders of his people or they had been turned against those traditions!

[curse within]

I really do find it ironic that such cultures exist to day, what is amaziing about them is reading not how they were suppressed in their time.. I have also learned that in Native American Indians Transgenderisim was not thought of as a natured error. They did not force masculine or feminize their young.

Their belief was your body was made from the earth by the Gods your soul was inserted into this vessel and it had purpose for that happening. Every member in a tribe ( soceity ) had use, it built the strength of the community.
Just as young braves hunted and batteled to provied food and safety , young women cooked, gathered and cared for the offspring.

Transgendered use was staying behind while the hunting and fighting took place , they served as protectors ,they also aided in cooking, gathering and careing for the young. This seems to be the trend for alot of other past soceitys in other parts of the world with small differences but the Transgendered where in a important role that maintained survival for these communitys to exist.

How could such a role be ousted? What made modern soceity reject this third sex?

[Nicki B]

Ok, fine then. You're entitled to your "opinion" even if it makes no sense, as I am to mine. Works for me.

So - which bit don't you agree with?

That whether you're gay or not shouldn't matter, or that the people who think it does are likely to be homophobic?

Also Berdache today is used by NA gay and transgendered individuals. We no longer find it offensive. There are many words Tribe to Tribe to describe the same condition.

I have a good friend who has Klinefelter's syndrome, who has been involved with 'Two Spirit' and native american people for a long while - he refuses to countenance the word, because his NA friends find it demeaning. It has a long history of being applied to the tribes by the europeans?

[celeste26]

Sorry Cursed I dont agree.

You wrote

I tried as I may to learn and educate myself on how Transgender people lived, and how they were accepted by the society they lived in from our distant past. I was amazed with the tolerance the western cultures had up until the late 19th century.. In Europe most nobles and royalty were Transgender, religion beliefs declined the favored lifestyle...Many Eastern Cultures embarrassed the lifestyle even today ,unless influenced by western beliefs..

There might have been a very small sampling of people over the ages that might be described as TG but far less than your statement implies and certainly not "most" of any class of people.

The confusion lies in the culture from which you extract the information and one cannot compare items or 'looks' across the ages. In fact the clothing of males and females has changed over the years and by today's standards it might appear to be something that in the context of the times it is not, and the presentation as the opposite is usually very rare.

The only acceptable venue for crossdressing has been the theater over that extended time period. This is true even in the orient. Where men took roles of traditional women and presented as opposites. But one cannot legitimately compare today (21st century) American standards to those limited actors roles. It makes no logical sense and gives people the wrong information too.

Wigs for instance were very poplar in the 18 century for men and women there was no implication that they were crossing any sexual or gender role rules. Likewise many other articles of clothing that to our eyes "look" like modern female garb. If there was no intent on crossing a line then it was simply not cross dressing.

I didn't see the TV show you indicated this information came from but it represents nothing of mainstream historical perspective on the subject. Sorry but we aren't likely to be able to infer anything from such poor research, much less some general acceptance 'in history' that just wasn't there.

[curse within]

Sorry Cursed I dont agree.

You wrote

There might have been a very small sampling of people over the ages that might be described as TG but far less than your statement implies and certainly not "most" of any class of people.

The confusion lies in the culture from which you extract the information and one cannot compare items or 'looks' across the ages. In fact the clothing of males and females has changed over the years and by today's standards it might appear to be something that in the context of the times it is not, and the presentation as the opposite is usually very rare.

The only acceptable venue for crossdressing has been the theater over that extended time period. This is true even in the orient. Where men took roles of traditional women and presented as opposites. But one cannot legitimately compare today (21st century) American standards to those limited actors roles. It makes no logical sense and gives people the wrong information too.

Wigs for instance were very poplar in the 18 century for men and women there was no implication that they were crossing any sexual or gender role rules. Likewise many other articles of clothing that to our eyes "look" like modern female garb. If there was no intent on crossing a line then it was simply not cross dressing.

I didn't see the TV show you indicated this information came from but it represents nothing of mainstream historical perspective on the subject. Sorry but we aren't likely to be able to infer anything from such poor research, much less some general acceptance 'in history' that just wasn't there.

Its fine and I agree with you as well..If crossdressing was the subject but it's not..Transgender has been around for years and how they imulated was compared to femme things in the era of the times.

I cannot elaberate anymore on this subject other than what I posted in order to be more sensitive to the spectrume..

Thanks fot the post..

[dawnmarrie1961]

Daphne, You are absolutely right in regards to the Native Americans. Indians often used gender deception as a tool to infiltrate into enemy tribes. Certain roots were used to transform warriors by soften appearance and give them the non threatening look of women. In other word these guys looked very "hot". The opposing warriors couldn't keep their hands off them. But once in the privacy of the enemies tee pee, at night, this supposed squaw used quick sheath to cut as many off the enemies throats before finally being discovered for what she really was. It was a practice that worked.

[Carly D.]

I was watching the tube the other day (tube?? flat screen, what are they gonna call that now??) and on one of the morning shows they were talking bras and something I didn't have a clue about is women are supposed to buy a whole new set of bras every six months because of the little changes here and there that their bodies go through.. I didna know that.. anyway.. thought I'd put that where it really doesn't belong.. here in a response to stereo equipment.. or rather stereotypes..

[Pauline Lauren]

I want to join the crusade!

DOWN WITH PANTS!

I am going to start an army of those who feel the same way

DOWN WITH PANTS!

That had me LMAO!! Where are your recruiting offices going to be located??



Pauline

[DaphneGrey]

So - which bit don't you agree with?

That whether you're gay or not shouldn't matter, or that the people who think it does are likely to be homophobic?



I have a good friend who has Klinefelter's syndrome, who has been involved with 'Two Spirit' and native american people for a long while - he refuses to countenance the word, because his NA friends find it demeaning. It has a long history of being applied to the tribes by the europeans?

Yes I am sure you are right about that, I and many others however, choose not to worry about such things. As I stated before it was a full blood Cherokee who used the word to describe me. I would also point out that many Native Americans including myself refer to themselves as Indian and prefer it to The native American, not in political or academic circles mind you but in real life.

I do not know what your friend does, but if he offers his assistance to the Two Spirit movement or the Native American cause in any way, He has my respect and admiration and scincerest thanks.

My point in bring this up is not to have the last word. But my involvement in dealing with Native American causes is very real. When you are dealing with real people, and real problems. Poverty, Crime, Drug and Alchohal Abuse, Gang culture, corruption and the myriad of other things that create a hurrendous envirnment for Gay and Transgendered youth. Semantics and the roots of words become of little concern.

[battybattybats]

How could such a role be ousted? What made modern soceity reject this third sex?

Well in idiginous cultures this was destroyed usually by destroying as much of the native way of life as possible and forcing them to live in a western manner, usually as slaves or serfs.

Speaking the native language was banned. Following native beliefs was banned. The gun and the noose imposed part of this. Stealling children from parents and raising them in religious missions was another.

Within 1 generation a thriving culture under assault and domination from a technologically superior but numerically inferior force can be decimated by foreigh disease, the language massively supressed, religion replaced...

It's actually not that hard. It was done in nation after nation.

Often the oppression of TG and sexuality has been part of taking power. We make great scapegoats and symbols of the 'bad old ways'.

The Abrahamic faiths all had times of pro-TG acceptance. There is evidence that there are several TG people in the bible for example, Josephs 'coat of many colours' is according to some academics going back to the earlier language Josephs 'dress worn by Princesses'!

However the political forms of these faiths are largely part of the oppression of other cultures and of TG and GLB people. Even when such things were contrary to the actual faiths tenants. Because it's politically useful to have scapegoats to hate.

As for acceptance of TG people in Europe.. it's false to say they only had acceptance in the theatres for three reasons, one is that in much of europes history actors were often despised anyway and at times the theatre itself was banned as immoral! The second is that effeminate castrati were often lauded to an extreme degree with crossdressing eunachs the rockstars of their day chased by both men and women... Europe is a big place with a complex history and one cannot eassilly compare the liberal parts of Venetian history with uritan England. The last is that some of those traditions are only dying out now! such as the FtM tradition in Albania http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1841280/posts

[DaphneGrey]

Ok, fine then. You're entitled to your "opinion" even if it makes no sense, as I am to mine. Works for me.

You say my opinion makes no sense. Can you elaborate?

I wrote a post about being open and honest, drew on my own life experiences asked reasonable questions and exposed myself in the process.

To which you responded with a poll? Now that does not really make sense to me as I was challenging collective opinion in the first place or mor accurately collective practice.

Groups which appear nonconformist to society tend to be ultra conformist to themselves. So the less I agree with polls the better for me. Generally it means I am thinking for myself.

Something I said has obviously touched a nerve so why not start with that, I would really like to hear your thoughts. How do you feel? Not the 75 percent who dissagree, you.