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Thread: Chaz good or bad?

  1. #1
    Ice queen Lorileah's Avatar
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    Chaz good or bad?

    Wow I have never been in the transmasculine area before, love what you have done to the place.

    Forgive me for stepping in here but something I would like your feelings on.

    Today on the Michelangelo Signorile show (XM and Sirus radio), he read a release from Cher in regard to Chaz Bono. Some felt that she didn't go far enough in her support of Chaz.

    Here is that memo

    "Chaz is embarking on a difficult journey, but one that I will support. I respect the courage it takes to go through this transition in the glare of public scrutiny, and although I may not understand, I will strive to be understanding. The one thing that will never change is my abiding love for my child."

    OK so that is part one, do you as F-M men think it is too weak or is it strong enough?

    Now Part 2. Many lesbian people have come out against what Chaz has done. Some to the point of calling her a sell out or traitor. Not knowing how many members here are lesbian (not limited to the lesbian FTMs any one can comment), do you feel Chaz is helpful to the cause or is he bad for the GLBT community because he (she as Chastity) came out years ago as a lesbian and now to some has jumped ship?

    I hope that makes enough sense to get a discussion and not a flame war. I had not considered how the lesbian community would feel about Chaz transitioning, so it shocked me that he was being ostracized. Thanks for letting me visit
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  2. #2
    Member Poltergeist's Avatar
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    I myself am into men only, and I get similar reactions from lesbians who seem to be angry about me both being into men and being an ftm... I get told I'm a lesbian in denial. I don't know if it's because I look like what I guess people consider a stereotypical lesbian. The problems I've had often starts because someone assume I'm a lesbian, and when they find out I'm not, they get a bit aggressive.

    I think it's only natural that he came out as a lesbian first and an ftm now, one is a lot more taboo than the other, and making the decision to transition can take a long time.

  3. #3
    Member Seamus_Jameson's Avatar
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    Lorileah, welcome to our little corner!

    I think it was perfectly appropriate for a public forum. In private, I'm sure Cher's feelings are a bit different, maybe more supportive, maybe less. I think she took a good neutral position.

    As for Chaz, I am totally sympathetic to coming out as lesbian first. Lesbians who do not understand transsexualism might feel very upset by this apparent "betrayal" and I can understand that, I guess. However, most heterosexual transmen come out as lesbians first. Some decide that would be the easier route for others to come to terms--after all, a straight transman is a lesbian to most people. Others, myself included, just have no other term for what we feel. We identify first as lesbian because we have no idea that FTM even exists.
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  4. #4
    Whiny li'l runt Ze's Avatar
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    I think it's a lot like how feminists can react (P.S. I'm a feminist); some people just get so caught up in labels and the fear of the stereotypes in those labels that they freak a bit. (It's understandable, but still.)

    Some gays don't like TGs or CDs because they're afraid it makes them look bad, while some feminists consider MtFs and FtMs "undeserving" and "traitors," respectively.

    It's just one of those things where people need to learn that we're not trying to put ourselves into somebody else's label. We're our own label.

  5. #5
    Bruce onerous's Avatar
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    I can only see strong support in that message - not weak at all. Which was the part that was said to be weak?

    "although I may not understand, I will strive to be understanding"
    sounds pretty strong to me still. I'm sure there are many alternative lifestyles that each of us are unable to understand, yet for others it's normal.. one example being how as a non-US person, I don't understand the entire purpose behind the BDSM culture.. but I can still be understanding, tolerant and appreciate that it is others' choice and that there's nothing wrong with it.

    "The one thing that will never change is my abiding love for my child."
    IMO, that was very nice of her to use "my child" rather than "my son/my daughter", because using either of those gendered words would cause different groups of people to be upset.

    Good or bad for the LGBT community? Good for the T community, bad for the LGB community, I suppose. An influential person, like a good football player, would always be beneficial to the side that they join and bad for the side that they leave. LGB and T have not much in common apart from being faced with prejudice (even unequal amounts of prejudice at that).

    And yeah, almost 100% of heterosexual FTMs first identified as lesbian, because there simply isn't any other word for us to describe it, without as much exposure towards TS by the media, compared to LGB.

    A lot of FTMs would also fit under the "stone butch" definition.

  6. #6
    mod John's Avatar
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    Welcome to they boys side of the playground! Here, have rum (it's tranditional)


    Quote Originally Posted by Lorileah View Post
    Here is that memo

    "Chaz is embarking on a difficult journey, but one that I will support. I respect the courage it takes to go through this transition in the glare of public scrutiny, and although I may not understand, I will strive to be understanding. The one thing that will never change is my abiding love for my child."

    OK so that is part one, do you as F-M men think it is too weak or is it strong enough?
    I echo the sentiment that for a public statement it was fine.

    As for the second part, it's an unfortunate truth that a lot of second wave and fundamentalist feminists don't like trans people. During the 70's and 80's, the notion that the only physiological differences between men and women where the primary and secondary physical characteristics and the endocrine profile, but that neurologically there was absolutely no difference between genders became popular. Understandable this was grabbed by the feminist movement in their efforts to deconstruct socialized gender roles; unfortunately for us one of the prerequisites for this theory was that transgender doesn’t exist. Since it has been proven of the last few decades that in fact there are neurological differences between genders, most people have given up the notion that every single gender difference is social in origin, and with it the idea that transpeople are suffering from a socially induced delusion. However not all radical feminists got the memo (that or it got burnt with their bras), and some continue to insist there are no neurological differences between gender; our existence as transpeople presents, in their mind, a direct attack against that belief, so they attack in turn.

    I've also noticed that some radical and fundamentalist feminists operate (hypocritically) on a 'us-and-them' mentality when to comes to the genders, basically women -v- men, and people that don't fit in their definitions of either (i.e. a transwomen hasn't had the experience of growing up 'oppressed by the male hierarchy' so can't in their minds be a woman, and a transman hasn't had the experience of being 'indoctrinated into the patriarchy' so can't in their minds be a man) upset the system, so they lash out in defense.

    I should like to add that most feminists and lesbians have no issue whatsoever with transfolk, and probably most of the lesbians Chas had known over the years don't mind at all whether he transitions or not (or would like him to transition rather than live unhappily or closeted), but it's always the loudest and most extreme people who get the stage.
    Last edited by John; 06-19-2009 at 07:31 AM.
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  7. #7
    Quartermaster DanielMacBride's Avatar
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    Hi Lorileah, welcome! I don't see anything weak about Cher's statement either, I think it comes across as very supportive I do think it was maybe deliberately toned down in terms of gender specific language though, perhaps as has been previously speculated to avoid antagonising any particular group (lesbians/transfolk/whoever). Even so, it comes across to me that Cher loves Chaz and will support him no matter what, even if she doesn't quite understand what he is going through, and that's awesome in my book I don't think she could really have been any more supportive than that (and wish my mother would have been the same! lol).

    As for the lesbian community, I have also experienced the same kind of prejudice - but meh, if they can't deal, too bad I have to argue with onerous's statement that "almost 100%" of heterosexual FtMs came up through the lesbian community though - I didn't (and I ID'd as a hetero guy when I came out), and I know several hetero FtMs who did not ID as lesbian before coming out. T can do funny things to sexuality LOL

    I think Chaz coming out is a very positive thing because it will raise awareness of FtMs (most cisgendered people that I have spoken to who are not involved in the GLBT community have no idea that we even exist!). I also admit to a slightly selfish happy when Chaz came out, because my anti-trans mother ADORES Cher (yeah, weird that given what Cher stands for, my mother has a problem with me being trans LOL) and I'm kind of hoping that if she sees Cher has a transgendered son and copes with it fine and accepts him, she might actually follow suit. Not holding my breath, but you never know
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  8. #8
    Senior Member Felix's Avatar
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    Firstly welcome to our little corner Hun
    I tend to agree with most here in what is being expressed. I think Cher has handled this well and she loves Chaz very much and is showing this in all that she has said. I myself did origonally come out as Lesbian and I was aware by that time in my life of transsexuality and what it would mean to me if I came out. When I did eventually come to terms with things and came out I was ridiculed publically by the local Lesbian community but once they got to know me I was accepted and often asked to join their group for drinks in the local Gay pubs here. I think it's just lack of understanding a lot of the time. I go on boards now where the LGB members are most accepting of me and are genuinely interested in my story and want to know more about being trans. I think it will be extremely positive for Trans Men that Chaz has gone public with his story as there are many Lesbians who do go down the route of coming out first as Lesbian but not all. I have heard speculation from some academics who feel that many Trans men live in stealth in the Lesbian community as it is an easier option than facing the back lash as I and many others have. I can fully understand this
    So Good luck to Cher and Chaz as they face this journey together xx Felix
    Last edited by Felix; 06-20-2009 at 03:54 AM.
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  9. #9
    HerzeleidMeister metalguy639's Avatar
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    I think some of these people that are possibly making a scene about it are most likely not comfortable with themselves to begin with. I think Cher did very well, what else is she supposed to say? Yea! My daughter is a guy! jumping up and down LOL. At least she is openly giving her kid support, that is all that matters.
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  10. #10
    Mr. Impossible SirTrey's Avatar
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    I think that Cher's statement is fine....I'm sure it's not easy when your child transitions and I think that saying that she will stick by him is great....As to the lesbian backlash....and there has been a lot of it....To Me, it's very simple....Everyone has the right to be who they are....and to live and express who they are the way that THEY feel is right for them....One would think that people in the LGBT community would be the first ones to defend someone's "freedom of choice", unfortunately, all too often that translates to, "you have the freedom of choice so long as you choose what I choose"....Chaz being a transguy means that he is NOT a lesbian...He's a transguy, and they are not the same thing....Medical research is showing that transsexuality/transgenderism is biological in nature....So....To say that Chaz is a traitor to the lesbian community because he is choosing to transition and fix what he feels is wrong is the same thing as telling a person with any other birth defect that they are wrong to fix theirs....People really need to mind their own busines and worry about their OWN lives....Another thing I have heard a lot is, "If Chaz wants his transition to be private, why did he announce it to the media?" Simple. He is Cher's son....I'm not famous, but I know that if I had told no one that I was going on T and just started transitioning, people would have definitely noticed...and asked a lot of questions....The difference with Me is that ME having a beard would not be the next National Enquirer headline....With him, it would be....Would be something like, "Chastity Bono Endocrine Disorder"....and I am sure he would prefer to just put it out there, ask for some privacy, and go live his life. And I don't blame him. I wish the world would just let us ALL do that.

    Oh, and welcome, Lorileah....
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