Chivalry

[Joanne f]

I don`t know why but as i was walking though town this morning it accrued to me that the one thing i do instinctively and i do not seam to be able to brake the habit is, always walk on the out side of a female, step off the path if i have to and open doors and all those other little things.
I know it is 2009 and in most case`s chivalry has gone but i was just wondering how you guys deal with it , in fact do you young lads of today even think about it .
Just showing my age now and maybe it is time to put my armour away keeping the chain mail skirt though,

[Nicki B]

It's my experience that a lot of chivalry is exhibited in this forum..

xx

[John]

I do it, but I do it for men and women regardless (what's the point in only doing it for the ladies when it's the men you're trying to seduce ). I don't think of it as chivalry, I was taught to do it growing up anyhow, it's just being polight.

[deja true]

One of the main constituents of the definiton of chivalry is the idea of "courtly love"... the absolute devotion to one's own chosen lady and to all women in general. And as Nicki B says, there certainly is a lot of it here.

We defend our women, born female, trans, and faux as dearly as we would defend our children, whether we know them or not. (I almost hesitate to add that we also do the same for our trans-guys here. But I don't see that as a bad thing, it's a sign of respect for their courage and determination. )

The inculcated mannerisms, that we grew up with (for us older...er...more mature types) like door holding and curbside walking and moderation of language (Hey! there are ladies present!) and polite behaviour are seemingly the last remnants of that ancient code. But they too are being weaned out of our modern Western cultures, the culture of politically "forced" equality between men and women.

I automatically hold doors for women, can't help it, despite the withering glances I sometimes get from the younger crowd. Ah well! I'll never stop it. For the deed done out of respect benefits the doer, as much as the recipient.

(I was taken aback many times at the Be-All conference when in a group of folks, the door was often held for me by born men, trans-men and even girls. It was a small passing event that always made me smile inside. And I was reminded that the chivalric code also carries requirements for the ladies ... to accept and acknowledge graciously the courtly and well-meaning deeds of others!)

Hoping that the gentlemanly practices do not die out too soon!

Nice thread idea, joanne!

[SirTrey]

I know that I am very much a gentleman....I always open doors, car doors, do the lifting and carrying, etc. for ladies....To Me, that's just what a man is supposed to do....I don't even think about it....I just do it.

Not a fan of the term "ex women", though....I assume you are referring to the transguys on the board (and, if not, please correct Me on that)....Being trans means being born in the wrong body....That means we were never ladies....Few things in life are more hurtful to a transsexual person than to be referred to in ways like that....I appreciate that you applaud our courage, etc., but "ex women"? Ouch. We go through the hardships of transitioning (which, for Me includes losing My whole family) because we are NOT women, we are men....People on this board, of ALL places, should know that....Listen, I know you didn't mean to be offensive when you said that....I really didn't get that sense from that post....but, really, we don't WANT those kinds of considerations because we happen to have been born with what basically amounts to a "birth defect", as science is now proving....I can really only speak for Me, but in MY case, that's like a person who used to have a large tumor on their face being referred to as "ex ugly"....Not trying to start a huge debate on that...Just trying to let you know that being trans is hard enough without hearing things like that.

[deja true]

Trey...I do heartily apologize for using the term....

You read correctly that it was not my intention at all to insult or demean. It was only to emphasize a connection among all of us, a connection closer than even between cis-gendered men and women, actually.

(You'd think that English, a language with more words than almost any other, would be an easy language to communicate in. But it sure isn't, is it?)

[SirTrey]

Trey...I do heartily apologize for using the term....

You read correctly that it was not my intention at all to insult or demean. It was only to emphasize a connection among all of us, a connection closer than even between cis-gendered men and women, actually.

(You'd think that English, a language with more words than almost any other, would be an easy language to communicate in. But it sure isn't, is it?)

Apology accepted....I DID know you meant no offense...that's why I didn't get angry....Hey, the trans world is a minefield sometimes....it's a tough life at every level....and we are all sensitive to some things....and, the more we know about each other and the things that can and do hurt us....the better we can be at supporting each other as a community....

[Thornton]

Having just graduated from high school, I would say that chivalry is pretty much out. Guys don't hold the doors for girls, girls get their own car door, the lifting is pretty much done equally, unless the package is obviously just way too heavy for the female. Language goes unchanged when a lady's present, though, I've learned that subject matter is very different, once my friends started treating me as male in conversations than female. But, yeah, chivalry is fast dying. I guess it's good for women, if it makes them feel more empowered or something, but I'm kind of upset by it. When I was 5, I wanted to grow up to be a Gentleman, but being that has seemed to go out of style(not that I care), and is kind of hard to pull off, because girls just don't expect special treatment anymore...

[ZenFrost]

I find in life that chivalry is essentially dead, with a few exceptions. Looking at the historical origins of courtly love however (and marriage practices of the time) the whole thing is actually really bizarre so I don't bother with it in my life.

I hold open doors for anyone and don't treat women differently than men.

[Ze]

I'm all about equal treatment, but I find myself very much a gentleman. Why? Besides it simply being polite, it gets you to stand out in the crowd in a positive way.

Because, unfortunately, chivalry is indeed dead. Thorton pretty much said it; I'm in college right now and an act of chivalry/kindness could knock me over with a feather.

But it may also be more commonly a lack of manners. Americans...and we give the French a hard time? Come on.

[Poltergeist]

I'll hold the door for anyone, male or female.

[Joanne f]

I can see that chivalry is not dead yet (well at least with you young lads ) maybe you are all just a cut above the rest in this world .
Thank you for the replies.

[ZenFrost]

I can see that chivalry is not dead yet (well at least with you young lads ).

I find it odd that you say that when half of us just said that chivalry was indeed dead, or something similar.

[Nicki B]

Surely chivalry is about respect - something which FTMs are much better at giving than MTFs, IME..

As Trey can no doubt testify...

[Aubrey Green]

I do all, also. It is just being polite. I always give people the benefit of the doubt. Chivalry is not dead, just hard to find. Not much of the younger generation (22 and younger) are familiar with the concept. I did NOT say all, just much, so don't jump on me younger people.

[Victoria Anne]

I go the full gambit , I was raised that way, you just do for women period. I do ,I must say love it when itis I on the recieving end.

[Seamus_Jameson]

Ah, this topic touched a nerve. Chivalry. Yes, indeed, I feel that it is being thrown by the wayside. Frankly, this makes me so angry that I literally see red. That there is an entire generation of young ladies being raised on the idea that they are supposed to lift their own luggage, hold their own doors, and pay their own way is inexcusable. The message is clearly conflicted: if you act like a woman, you are weak, i.e., there is no honor in womanhood--on the other hand, if you act like a man, you are a strong woman, an asset to your gender.

Could the message be made any clearer? Woman are trash! If you want to be a "REAL" woman, you had better forget about being vulnerable, soft, gentle, sweet, submissive, etc. And this attitude robs young girls of their womanhood. They are not being taught how to be strong, successful woman. Despite what some feminists might want to believe, there are real differences between men and woman. These girls will never be better at "acting the man" than men. They are doomed to a game in which they will always come out the losers.

The problem, IMHO, is that young woman aren't being taught how to use their own power--the unique power women hold over men--to achieve their ends. Instead of being taught to demand the respect their sex deserves, they are taught to revile it.

Sadly, the lack of chivalry doesn't diminish the desire for it. Woman who disdain appearing "weak" still want to be respected and cherished by men. I am afraid we (the young 'uns) are part of a generation of woman, emotionally unfulfilled, with no idea how to get their womanly needs met (and secretly ashamed of them, to boot).

Eh, yeah. . . back to the question. I concur with Trey. The way a man treats a woman is part of what makes him a man. I was raised in the Southern United States and I'm Christian. I'm no saint, but I truly believe that woman are a gift from God and that I'll be giving an account for my treatment of them come judgment day.

[Joanne f]

I find it odd that you say that when half of us just said that chivalry was indeed dead, or something similar.

Hey stop flexing you muscles i just like to point out the good things

[metalguy639]

I always walk on the outside, open doors and what have you. I was actually primarily raised as a boy by both of my parents and it was always something that my father did and something that I always do. It wasn't something I have to think about, its pretty much habit adn always has been. When I was presenting as female it really did confuse quite a few though. Now no one is confused anymore! LOL go figure!

[TxKimberly]

LOL My wife has not opened her own car door in my presence in at least 15 years. It is such a small thing to do for the woman that saved my life, brought love into my world, and gave me three children. Chivalry is NOT dead, I don't give a damn if it's 2009 or not

[Ze]

Ah, this topic touched a nerve. Chivalry. Yes, indeed, I feel that it is being thrown by the wayside. Frankly, this makes me so angry that I literally see red. That there is an entire generation of young ladies being raised on the idea that they are supposed to lift their own luggage, hold their own doors, and pay their own way is inexcusable. The message is clearly conflicted: if you act like a woman, you are weak, i.e., there is no honor in womanhood--on the other hand, if you act like a man, you are a strong woman, an asset to your gender.

Could the message be made any clearer? Woman are trash! If you want to be a "REAL" woman, you had better forget about being vulnerable, soft, gentle, sweet, submissive, etc. And this attitude robs young girls of their womanhood. They are not being taught how to be strong, successful woman. Despite what some feminists might want to believe, there are real differences between men and woman. These girls will never be better at "acting the man" than men. They are doomed to a game in which they will always come out the losers.

The problem, IMHO, is that young woman aren't being taught how to use their own power--the unique power women hold over men--to achieve their ends. Instead of being taught to demand the respect their sex deserves, they are taught to revile it.

Sadly, the lack of chivalry doesn't diminish the desire for it. Woman who disdain appearing "weak" still want to be respected and cherished by men. I am afraid we (the young 'uns) are part of a generation of woman, emotionally unfulfilled, with no idea how to get their womanly needs met (and secretly ashamed of them, to boot).

Eh, yeah. . . back to the question. I concur with Trey. The way a man treats a woman is part of what makes him a man. I was raised in the Southern United States and I'm Christian. I'm no saint, but I truly believe that woman are a gift from God and that I'll be giving an account for my treatment of them come judgment day.

I agree with you in the problem of "women acting like men" in order to "be treated equally." It just sort of perpetuates the stereotypes, yet makes women work harder.

However, people like myself (even when I'm in female mode), try to pay their share, etc, simply out of respect. I never "expect" a man to hold a door open for me (I think some women do, though, which makes them just plain rude), so I just do it myself unless I see him make a move, in which case I back off and allow/appreciate it. And I never go on a date without assuming I have enough money for at least myself, in not him as well. (You never know.)

I guess the key is for women not to expect it, but men should do it anyway. An odd balance, I know.

And contradicting what I've just said, I guess we can't force actions on anybody else in any way because it can easily go sour. *shrugs*

[TxKimberly]

. . . I never "expect" a man to hold a door open for me (I think some women do, though, which makes them just plain rude. . .

I don't know that I'd agree with that one. I don't think there is anything rude in a woman expecting or anticipating a man may hold the door for her. What is rude (and happens fairly regularly for me) is that when I do open the door for women I don't know, and they just walk through offering no thanks, no smile, and no acknowledgment for the respect I have just shown her. In those cases, I'd be happy to let the door strike her in the butt.

[Ze]

I don't know that I'd agree with that one. I don't think there is anything rude in a woman expecting or anticipating a man may hold the door for her. What is rude (and happens fairly regularly for me) is that when I do open the door for women I don't know, and they just walk through offering no thanks, no smile, and no acknowledgment for the respect I have just shown her. In those cases, I'd be happy to let the door strike her in the butt.

Yeah, I know what you mean. I guess there's a fine line between demanding (deserved) respect and narcissism. I just find it polite to not expect it.

[ZenFrost]

Hey stop flexing you muscles

What?

[onerous]

I hate, dislike, detest chivalry. It doesn't require a lot of strength to open a door, or to press the "open" button in the elevator. I don't do it for females (except heavy lifting where it's justified - but then they think I'm also a fellow female so they refuse to let me carry anything), nor do I expect any other guy to do it for any other girl.

Guys see me as female, so they do these kind of things. They can be sitting metres ahead of me on the bus, but when getting down, will wait, standing by their seat, looking at me kindly, smiling, gesturing etc. for me to pass first even though they could have gotten past and down the bus wayyyyy before I even reached halfway to where they sit. If we were going to cross paths if we try to exit at the same time, this would be understandable. But when there is just such a huge distance? It just isn't logical and serves no "helping" purpose apart from getting the girl to smile at them or to make them feel more like a man. Usually in this kind of situations I give them a blank stare, then motion for them to get down first. They then give me a weird look. Sometimes they just absolutely refuse to budge even after i've told them to get down. I then just think "fine with me if you dont want to get down" and stomp past them without looking. Since they seem to be getting their satisfaction by having a female smile at them and be grateful to them. For what if it just delays me. Harsh I know but it just pisses me off. I'm sure the other FTMs dislike having chivalry done TO them just as much.

I'm also of the younger generation and the guys still behave chivalrously on occasion, though less than the older guys.

No way am I going to acknowledge anything, much less thank them. I've resorted to pressing my back tightly against the very back of the elevator/bus/whatever so everyone else would get down first, and always walking at the very very back of a pack of friends, so I can avoid such an annoying situation. Even STILL they insist sometimes.
..of course having a male mind I just hate hate hate being condescended to or having something done for me. Maybe the GGs would think differently. I don't know.