Chivalry

[deja true]

"...I'm also of the younger generation and the guys still behave chivalrously on occasion, though less than the older guys.

No way am I going to acknowledge anything, much less thank them."

Gee! This makes me kinda sad, Bruce.

I think you maybe misread the intentions of the acts of politeness.

If, as you say, you know that you're being read as a female, then you have to kinda expect that men will defer to you occassionally. There is absolutely no intention to demean or embarrass you. It's just the way men are, almost an instinctive thing, a cultural effect of having been raised correctly.

Do you really think that there should be a war between the sexes (you know ... genders), and you are a fifth columninst, like it says in your signature line?

:

[Thornton]

I'm sure the other FTMs dislike having chivalry done TO them just as much.


..of course having a male mind I just hate hate hate being condescended to or having something done for me. Maybe the GGs would think differently. I don't know.

I really think this is it, having a male mind. It reminds me of the time a male friend of mine held a classroom door open for me. I looked at him like he was crazy, but he just smiled and said, "Ladies First."...Now, I've been going to school with this kid since 4th grade. He was just being instinctively polite, did not mean any malice. However, when he did that, I wanted pound his face into a bloody pulp.

[Ze]

I'm sure the other FTMs dislike having chivalry done TO them just as much.

Nope, I always appreciate it. I just don't understand the harm if it's in the realm of niceties. Men can be nice to men, men can be nice to women, women can be nice to men, women can be nice to women, trans can be nice to trans, intersexuals can be nice to intersexuals...

[Alana65]

Nope, I always appreciate it. I just don't understand the harm if it's in the realm of niceties. Men can be nice to men, men can be nice to women, women can be nice to men, women can be nice to women, trans can be nice to trans, intersexuals can be nice to intersexuals...

Well said Ze. Just what I was thinking, but you put to words very succinctly, what I could not.

[Ze]

Well said Ze. Just what I was thinking, but you put to words very succinctly, what I could not.

Ironically, I had to google "succinctly."

[TxKimberly]

. . . a cultural effect of having been raised correctly. . .

My mother, who raised the three of us children on her own, is the one that taught me manners and social niceties. She used to tell my brother and I about a date she was on. She waited for the boy to walk around and open her car door (as was expected in the 50's), and when he laughed and refused to do so, my mother got out of his car and walked home. Immediately after she got home, her big brothers went looking for her "date" and commenced to whipping his butt.
At 43, I'm not exactly old, but I was raised that this is something a polite man does. It's not some sort of lecherous attempt to get a woman to gift me with a smile, it's the way i was raised, and in my mind it is a social requirement of me, it's not a choice. Now having said that, I do expect to get some sort of acknowledgment from her. That is her end of the social "bargain".

Opening a door requires so little effort.
Saying "Thank you" requires so little effort.
Have we degenerated so far that these little tiny things that bring smiles to strangers are no longer considered worth while?

[deja true]

Nope, I always appreciate it. I just don't understand the harm if it's in the realm of niceties. Men can be nice to men, men can be nice to women, women can be nice to men, women can be nice to women, trans can be nice to trans, intersexuals can be nice to intersexuals...

Zackly, Ze!

What's-his-name was in LAX and bought a cuppa coffee a few weeks ago. The counter person gives you the empty cup and you gotta go over to the urn thingy and press a button to fill yer own cup. Never saw one of these dispensers before and couldn't figure out which button to push. A very nice large person in jeans and a flannel shirt got up from a nearby table and showed me how to do the technology. And looking up to thank them, I saw that he was probably an FTM. Smiles and thanks and "no problems" ensued.

Being nice, helpful, to someone... a stranger ... is not an affront or a challenge. Acknowledging someone's help is not a surrender or loss of status. These things are the subtle social lubricants that keep us from each other's throats. If ya got problems with the inconsequential social niceties, ya got problems!

[Alana65]

I couldn't agree with you more, Deja.

[Seamus_Jameson]

Without trying to put words in his mouth, I sense a lot of anger from Bruce over being on the wrong end of things.

I am just starting to come to terms with my anger over being treated "like a girl" by other men and being unable to treat women with chivalrous respect because I'm an "icky lesbian". That hurts, badly, but it's not chivalry's fault.

[onerous]

He was just being instinctively polite, did not mean any malice. However, when he did that, I wanted pound his face into a bloody pulp.

lol. I've heard other FTMs say similar. I haven't yet wanted to beat anyone up, though I have always wanted to just freeze in front of the open door for as many minutes or hours it took to make them realise that I did NOT want to go through the door first. But eh, it would be kinda inconvenient.

I think you maybe misread the intentions of the acts of politeness.

If, as you say, you know that you're being read as a female, then you have to kinda expect that men will defer to you occassionally. There is absolutely no intention to demean or embarrass you. It's just the way men are, almost an instinctive thing, a cultural effect of having been raised correctly.

So say I'm being read as a female. I then ask them nicely, no - almost beg them, to please, PLEASE go out the door first. They absolutely refuse to listen, and insist still. Is that politeness or respect? In my opinion that is just plain rude - a girl is asking to please be left alone, that she can handle something herself, but they insist that she must be helped. Whereas she has made it clear she does NOT WANT to be helped. That imo is also disrespect towards her beliefs, her requests, her preferences, her own abilities.

What defines being "raised correctly"? Culture? In my culture here, being raised correctly does not involve chivalry. I do know that my younger brother is not taught to behave chivalrously towards women, but he is indeed taught to behave nicely towards everyone he meets. Is that not being raised correctly?

I just don't understand the harm if it's in the realm of niceties. Men can be nice to men, men can be nice to women, women can be nice to men, women can be nice to women, trans can be nice to trans, intersexuals can be nice to intersexuals...

Sure, if it was done just to be nice, that would be excellent. Everyone willingly helping each other out, that would be the best world ever. It's different, very different, though when the things that they do, they would not even dream of doing to other guys for fear of being given strange looks and possibly being called "gay". (yes they will be labeled that, at least here)

If someone wants to be helpful to others, show their respect, shouldn't they do it for everyone regardless of sex/gender? That would be even nicer.. I'm too lazy to look it up but I believe chivalry itself is defined as something being done BY men FOR women.

I would not mind someone doing something for me just to be nice, and I wouldn't mind doing things for other people, whether they be male/female/trans/intersex to be nice as well, but I do mind if the things being done are specifically done due to perceived gender.

I sense a lot of anger from Bruce over being on the wrong end of things.

I do realise I sound like a bitch here. I also believe everyone has a right to have their own opinions, even if they may differ. Maybe if you lived in the same country I do, you would understand why my opinions are such.

[Joanne f]

Thank you for ALL the post`s , it`s amazing what a passing thought can do when you share it.

[Felix]

Hi Joanne and sorry for the late reply here but I like the whole thing to be honest. I'm old fashioned I guess but to me there is nothing like it. I don't mean the whole macho thing far from it!!! I just mean the little things like opening doors and stuff like that, giving flowers and stuff to show appreciation. I also like to walk on the outside when possible and I sit on the outside too when travelling if we are sitting in the same seat. I know my GF likes these things alot which makes it easier. If I picked up that a female didn't I would adapt and go her way most probably. xx Felix

[Joanne f]

Thank you Felix, much appreciated as are all the rest .