Crossdressed and/or transgendered?

[Ruth]

I saw the recent thread on 'giving yourself permission to be transgendered' and I wondered. I’m OK with labels and definitions, if and only if they are well understood and accepted in the community. Crossdresser is a good label: we know where we are with this. It describes an activity which is visible and unequivocal. You know when you are a crossdresser. But transgendered?
I thought for a while I was transgendered but now I’m not so sure. I don’t know whether I tick all the boxes and I don’t know for sure what the boxes are.
When I crossdress, it’s to create the total illusion of a female persona. I go out in public regularly as Ruth and I pass as a woman. I do all the grooming details like leg shaving and eyebrow plucking; I do my face with moisturiser every night, I rub creams into legs and arms to keep them smooth and supple. My wife observes that I’ve got more cosmetics and beauty products than she has. But all this activity is merely in aid of creating the illusion. I don’t actually see it as specifically female behaviour.
If I’m being transgendered, and acting out female attitudes and behaviours, it has to be in other areas. For instance, I’m not interested in sports, or motorcars, or male bonding situations such as drinks evenings or poker parties, or masculine activities like hunting or fishing, so I'm not your typical male. I like music, drama, good conversation; peaceful activities like a walk in an ornamental garden or a trip round a gallery. But though these are non-macho pursuits, they are not specifically feminine.
I’ve got a feeling that a lot of my preferences are gender-neutral rather than transgender.
So is it actually all about the clothes?

[Nicki B]

Perhaps the first thing to do is agree a definition of transgender/transgendered?

Or at least give yours..

[dawnmarrie1961]

First question, Ruth. Are you "Ruth " 24/7 or do you have a male persona?

[Sarah Doepner]

We seem to have a very fluid dictionary that has the same definition for crossdresser and transgender sometimes and different definitions others. With as many people interpreting the words as we have people, it's not hard to believe that this is the case. Where is Noah Webster when we need him?

In the 1980's and early 1990's I believed I was a "transvestite" and later moved to the more acceptable "crossdresser" when that became part of my vocabulary. Then "transgender" hit the world and that became my self-identifier for several years. I've occasionally thought of myself as a "two-spirit" member of our tribe, but I'm just not spiritual enough for that to stick. Now I'm back to crossdresser and comfortable with that for the time being.

For the record, I am a genetic male, heterosexual, with a strong desire and willingness to wear women's clothing, makeup, a wig and body-shaping devices in an attempt to appear as female, occasionally in public settings. I self-identify in those situations as "Sarah" and attempt to behave in ways that would be construed to be typical of the feminine gender. It is not uncommon for me to become sexually aroused when contemplating this change in appearance, but that is rarely ever the goal when I dress. I have no desire to have gender reassignment surgery or use hormones to effect my appearance, but if I had the money I'd probably get my nose worked over. For activities, I like backpacking, smoking cigars with my buddies, opera, shopping for girl clothes and keeping up on family relationships.

I think that addresses the majority of the descriptors, but I may have left some out. Now does that make me transgendered, a crossdresser, a transvestite, gender-gifted, gender-neutral, an odd duck, or something else? I understand how important it can be in our corner of the world to have something to latch onto. Our self-identities are so fluid that the application of a name or title might help nail a corner of it down and provide a better foundation for additonal growth or understanding. Or maybe just a bit of stability while we try to get a handle on things. I don't know the answer to your question but it seems, like so many others, to be aiming for the heart of what we are. Good luck to us all.

[sandra-leigh]

I agonized over this for months... I was thinking at the time of telling my mother, but first I had to figure out what my feelings and behaviours meant to me. A fairly long thread resulted.

The thread did get side tracked a bit because initially several people thought I was talking about CD vs Transsexual, instead of CD vs TransGENDER -- by which I mean some one of the variants in which one person combines within themselves attributes that would normally be associated with different genders.

I received some very interesting feedback and discussion in the thread. At the risk of putting words into people's mouths, the bulk of the discussion came down to the point that whether you a straight CD or a TS or are one of the many transgender varieties, once you have processed the thoughts and emotions, what you "are" is something that you will "just know" to be the right thing for you.

There isn't any little test that can tell you whether you really are something: what does your heart tell you?


For me, most of the time getting "pretty" wasn't important (though from time to time, upon occasion, it was something I needed). But I've looked at points such as whether I bothered studying how to walk like a woman, or how to have a "female voice", or whether I've practiced my makeup (as much as practical under my circumstances)... and I found that those things weren't important to me. And neither, in the most part, was "not being recognized" -- I was okay (though sometimes disappointed) with being recognized not just as a cross-dresser but as my male self... yeah, it happened a lot, but people treated me very well even knowing I was a cross-dresser. I often shop in what -looks- like drab (but is women's clothes), openly trying on skirts and dresses and obviously femme clothes as "me", not as "a guy acting exactly like a woman".

And so it was that over time, I came to realize that some aspect of me that demands to be free is female... not just the female clothing, but the feeling that I should have breasts and they are missing. But at the same time I don't feel like I am a "woman in the wrong body": if I did have that impulse to a strong degree, I would feel like getting everything "womanly" would be important.

I am, then, I came to "know", transgender... more particularly, "gender-fluid", not gender-polarized and not "two-spirited". (Though I think there are some unexplored parts of me having to do with being fully Dressed and looking good and having guys pay attention to me as if I were truly female: the flush I got the few times that has happened, confuses me still.) Androgyne is one term perhaps applicable, but not in any asexual context: the non-scientific tests place me just -sightly- male of "center" if you use gender as a continuous line, but I am without a doubt attracted to women.

[celeste26]

The two words 'crossdresser" and "trangendered" are two sides of the same coin. The first, 'crossdresser,' focuses upon the activity of the individual whereas, 'transgendered,' focuses upon the inner life of the individual.

One can be transgendered and have no crossdressing activity, and one can cross dress and still not be transgendered.

On the other hand you can have both words apply to yourself and my guess is that most people meet that last definition.

[KarenS]

I have struggled with the same question myself - trying to determine if I am a CD or a TG or something else. I have had others ask the same thing and usually said I was a CD. But as conversation ensues, I frequently hear people say that the feelings and thought processes I express clearly indicate I am a TG. As I have pondered the issue of 'my' label further, I ultimately came to a realization that I don't care too much except for the ability to answer other peoples questions. I would rather simply enjoy the experience. I have thought about the issue enough to have gotten a headache. I have looked up terms in dictionary.com and wikipedia and haven't been any more satisfied that I understood any better at all. In the end, I don't think it matters to me anymore. I am a genetic male that REALLY enjoys wearing clothing intended for females. I like to dress as a woman, put on makeup like a woman, fix my hair like a woman (with a wig), and present myself like a woman. I would love to be treated like a woman when I am dressed also. I do NOT behave in this manner for sexual gratification and often when I dress, that is the furthest thing from my mind. In addition to all of the above, I have always thought I was severly attracted to women (and still am). But, sometimes when I dress, I have thoughts and strong curiosity of being with a man. I wish to be respectful and honor the female gender and do so age appropriate - not present myself badly. I am not passable but feel quite femenine when I dress.

I don't get the opportunity to dress and go out much. My wife really thinks it is all a bit wierd and has requested that I not go out. She also does not wish to see me dressed but doesn't say much about me wearing undergarments 24/7 since we talked about "what to call me".

So what does all that make me? I think it makes me confused but only when I try to think about it. So, I try not to think about it much and simply try to enjoy "Karen" when I can.

So... call me confused but not stressed about it.

[TGMarla]

All of us in the gender-bent community exist somewhere on a bell curve. Some of us are content with a pair of panties, while others are transexual. Most all of us are somewhere in between. There is an area on this curve where crossdressing fades into the realm of the transgendered. Not all crossdressers have this gender dysphoria; others do. As for me, I'm firmly in the transgendered area, but not to the point of transexual. I say this because there is a part of me (a very vocal part of me!) that wishes I'd been born, and was now living the life of, a female. But I will not be undergoing transition or surgery. However, for me, it goes further and deeper than just crossdressing.

[sandra-leigh]

All of us in the gender-bent community exist somewhere on a bell curve.

Not meaning to argue, just present a different point of view:

My suspicion is that gender is not a continuous (or even discontinuous) line, male on one side, female on the other, and so-many percentage of the way between for everyone else. And if it isn't a line, then it can't be a bell curve.

I don't know exactly what it is, though. But since gender has different components, it could be more like a scatter-plot: at this instant, this component is this far over, this other component is that far over, and so on, with some (not necessarily linear) weighting of the various positions determining whether one is "more male" or "more female" at that time. And the positions change. And maybe the weighting function changes to, or maybe it is different for different people.

In more mathematical terms, "male" or "female" as is traditionally understood, might be projections of a multidimensional function down to a simple binary choice. And it probably works "well enough" for most people. But it doesn't work "well enough" for all of us. And it wouldn't surprise me if people are just so accustomed to everyone's gender constellations jiggling around a bit, that they don't even notice as long as "enough" parts project down to what they expect of the person.

But this is just hypothesis, not any kind of proof. On the other hand, the idea of gender as a line that could have a bell curve is just hypothesis, not any kind of proof either...

[PrincessTia]

Is there anyone else who does it just because they seem compelled to? I don't want to be a woman. I'm a man. However, I'm a man who loves frilly things, the feel of satin on shaved legs, and adorable panties, and the feel of lipstick. I like the idea that I'm wearing things that are taboo. But, I'm a man, and while I may tuck, I'm deeply attached to my bits and don't want to see anything happen to them.

So, what does that make me? Am I transgendered? I don't think so. Am I a crossdresser? I think so, but others might disagree. Am I just kinky? Well, kinky to be sure...but 'just'? That's up for debate as well.

Tia

[Cathytg]

My own tag line says what I feel -- for myself:

TG is what I am; CD is something I do.

In my little world it has become just that simple. In that respect, I am very happy to be TG since it gives me an appreciation of the softer side of life. But CD is a lot of fun and gives me good feelings although, unlike TG, the CD needs to be handled with care.

[Jan W]

I'm a tranny.

[Satrana]

I believe most CDs are just that - crossdressing men who enjoy exploring their feminine side, or what I call tomgirls - my preference for girly activities over manly pursuits.

I believe there is confusion that any man who CDs must be TG in order to be interested in the behavior. I believe that idea to be as false as the notion that all CDs must be gay. Gender is so poorly misunderstood as a concept and how and why it exists in our society that people understandably believe in simplistic but incorrect linkages.

I doubt if most CDs are any more transgendered than the average man in the street. The only difference between an average CD and an average non-CD is that the CD acknowledges and relishes his femininity whilst the non-CD has been completely brainwashed into believing he has no feminine side and finds the idea of feminine men frightening or repulsive. Of course he does have a feminine side, he just cannot see it or acknowledge its existance.

For me, a TG should really be someone whose personality is at least half or more of the opposite gender. Basically a male who is distressed in having to spend most of his time presenting as male and genuinely wants to come fully out of the closet to everyone.

I deliberately focus on the distress of being male as a measure because all CDs enjoy the fantasy of becoming a woman on a permanent basis. So it is next to impossible to measure transgenderness by presenting the ultimate dream. It is like trying to measure greed by asking people if they would like to be a millionaire - everyone is going to answer yes so the test is worthless.

Every single person alive is transgendered because everyone is both masculine and feminine. For TG to have real meaning, it should be reserved for those who occupy the middle ground. I don't believe most CDs are remotely close to being 50/50.

[PaulaJaneThomas]

Perhaps the first thing to do is agree a definition of transgender/transgendered?

Or at least give yours..

Before that, people need to understand that transgender is an adjective and you can't be 'transgendered' any more than you can be 'olded'.

[Krystal Nielsdatter]

I like the definition that CD is something you do, while TG is how you feel, but they aren't separate things. It's like the usual coupling of obsessive-compulsive where obsessions are thoughts and compulsions are actions. If someone thinks constantly about something it's likely they'll eventually act on those thoughts. Conversely, habitual actions rarely occur spontaneously without some thought process first.

The act of crossdressing wouldn't happen without some thought or fantasy, so I don't think anyone is only a crossdresser or only transgendered. I've always felt that the difference between someone who occasionally dresses and one who lives full time is just differing levels of obsession. They both spring from the same cause, whatever that might be.

[Nicki B]

Before that, people need to understand that transgender is an adjective and you can't be 'transgendered' any more than you can be 'olded'.

'Gender' is a noun, though.. And IME TG is often used as such, these days.

IFor me, a TG should really be someone whose personality is at least half or more of the opposite gender.

Why? Doesn't 25% count? Or 10%? Or 2%? Does it have to be all the time, or do episodes count?

Basically a male who is distressed in having to spend most of his time presenting as male and genuinely wants to come fully out of the closet to everyone.

That's surely a definition of an extreme form of gender dysphoria - there are lesser versions, too..

Every single person alive is transgendered because everyone is both masculine and feminine. For TG to have real meaning, it should be reserved for those who occupy the middle ground.

Gender (as opposed to anatomical sex, i.e. male/female) certainly is a fluid thing. Perhaps the defining factor for those who are trans is underlying dysphoria - but certainly, some don't think of themselves as dysphoric, despite exhibiting the behaviour?

I've had a discussion here with a girl who says that, for her, it purely an escapist fantasy - but she never explained why the fantasy had to be in a different gender, as opposed to dressing up as a traindriver or re-enacting battles?

[Rachel Morley]

Hi Ruth,

In describing yourself it sounded like you were describing me! My take on all this is that I use the term crossdresser or transgendered to describe myself equally, but it varies depending on who I'm talking to and/or the particular social situation I happen to be in. In my own mind they are interchangeable when considering myself.

For example if I were to be pulled over by the police I would describe myself as transgendered but if I was talking to another crossdresser at a party I would say I was a CDer. It also varies depending on the personality of the person I'm talking to. There are some TS women that I have met that I didn't want to be seen as "only a CDer" because of the vibe I was getting from them about CDers, so I said I was transgendered and at the beginning of my journey.

My point is, for me, it's all the same and I don't care one way or the other when I think about how I feel about myself ... but I do sometimes care how I am perceived by others. That's just me and that's my

[sandra-leigh]

For me, a TG should really be someone whose personality is at least half or more of the opposite gender. Basically a male who is distressed in having to spend most of his time presenting as male and genuinely wants to come fully out of the closet to everyone.

I haven't gone to a gender therapist for an official evaluation (but I will be asking for referral on my next therapy visit.)

I don't think of myself as being "half or more of the opposite gender". I think of myself as being notably more on the male side. But the pseudo-science tests disagree and place me just a little male of the middle. But those tests... I don't know if I'm answering all of the questions accurately (e.g., how do I know what the norms are for how accurately people locate sounds? How do I know if I'm being accurate in my own assessment?)

But what i do know is that in the last month I have come out to 5 people that know me personally, including my GP, my sister, my mother, and my best friend... because it has become my time to come out of the closet to those who know me, and I am getting my act together with the intent of going public in my immediate neighbourhood (I'm already public to lots of strangers.)

I have also started carefully asking questions about coming out at work -- if not being obviously femme while actually working (if that would be too disruptive), but at the very least being able to walk into the building in my chosen mode of dress, change before work, change back again before leaving work and walk out with my chosen mode of dress (it's not easy to find a place near my work in which I can safely change.)

In a way it's a matter of personal integrity: I am who I am, what I am, and having to hide it is stressful on me. Just yesterday my GP told me to just go ahead and do start dressing at work, and was quite excited about how much better I would get (I don't believe it's going to be that simple.). For me, the hiding and pretending is a significant stress: just as it was eventually time to tell my S.O. because I hated the lies/mistruths, there comes a time when being restricting myself to male gender norms becomes an inner lie that tears at me.

Especially now that I've told my family and best friend, work is the last place to "go public"... and I'm investigating that.

So I don't know that I match the 50%, but I do match the "needing to go public" part, so I have no hesitation in referring to myself as "transgender".


You know what the odd thing might be? That because gender-fluidity is hard on people (how are they to think of me today?), the answer from work might come back that that they don't know how to handle that, but that from precedent in other parts of our (very large) organization, that they could deal with me going femme full time. That would be a bit weird for me too... I know it might sound like a dream for many on this forum, but as I do not identify myself as fully female, going obviously femme full time might be hard on me too. Wigs aren't the easiest of things, take a lot of time to prepare, slip easily on my big head, and my hair isn't long enough or thick enough for a real femme hairstyle.

[Intertwined]

LABELS Labels labels

Like the other over 6.5 Billion on this planet, I Am HUMAN !

From there, does it really matter?

By my personal interpretation of Cross-Dressing, no, I am not a cross-dresser, I dress 1/2 masculine, 1/2 feminine, which reflects what I feel my gender actually is.

Am I Transgendered, I would say yes, but, again that depends on what you use for your base reference of " Gender ", Biological Gender (body parts), Genetic Gender (X & Y Chromosomes), Social Gender (How you interact with your community)

Imagine them as ten spokes of a wheel which start at zero (feminine) in the centre and run to 100 (masculine) at their outside extremity. They are:

1. Chromosomes
2. Hormones
3. Primary sexual characteristics (genitals)
4. Secondary sexual characteristics (hair, breasts, voice...)
5. Legal status
6. Clothing
7. Sexual partnership (gay/bi/straight)
8. Sexual behaviour (predatory/submissive)
9. Brain pattern
10. Personal identity (what you feel deep inside)
11. Who knows what other... work in progress.

Running with your Idea, here is my Gender Star.....
gs.jpg

[Carin]

Labels do serve an important role for some people as an integral part of communications and introspection..

Now does that make me transgendered, a crossdresser, a transvestite, gender-gifted, gender-neutral, an odd duck, or something else? I understand how important it can be in our corner of the world to have something to latch onto. Our self-identities are so fluid that the application of a name or title might help nail a corner of it down and provide a better foundation for additional growth or understanding. Or maybe just a bit of stability while we try to get a handle on things.

But back to the original question:

But transgendered? I thought for a while I was transgendered but now I’m not so sure. I don’t know whether I tick all the boxes and I don’t know for sure what the boxes are.
.....
I’ve got a feeling that a lot of my preferences are gender-neutral rather than transgender.
So is it actually all about the clothes?

I became aware of this concept a couple of years ago when my then wife suggested that "I was more than a crossdresser". I put myself in that transgender category that is "more than crossdressing but not transsexual".

My expression and style is feminine 24/7 these days (still looking for a job so I can't speak for a work environment). But I have no desire to be a woman. I really like being feminine, and still I like my male parts. It is my desire to live openly and comfortably with an emphasis on my own femininity and feminine expression that pushes me into this category. I do not know the check-box qualifications for being transgendered, or being authentically feminine for that matter. I do know of my own discomfort with being (behaving, presenting) as a guy, yet at the same time I do not want to be (pass as) a woman. I like my mix of male femininity.

There are some people in my life who do not see a male identity in me at all. There are people who do not see female inclinations in me. And there are people who say to me "What are you today?"

So is it really all about the clothes? I don't think so. Expression - the clothes - is a big factor. The sense of comfort in maintaining that state of feminine expression for a prolonged (permanent) time surely indicates a match between the tangible feminine gender expression (looks) and the intangible feminine gender identity (feels).

I agonized over this for months... I was thinking at the time of telling my mother, but first I had to figure out what my feelings and behaviours meant to me. A fairly long thread resulted.

....

I am, then, I came to "know", transgender... more particularly, "gender-fluid", not gender-polarized.

For those that ask the CD or TG question, that "long thread" should be required reading.

You and I are in a very similar space Tess-leigh. That middle ground gender fluid space is hard to describe to people - the natural inclination is to push it all the way to one side or the other. As stated in that other thread, I really like the middle ground - as a permanent state. Gender fluid, third gender, androgynous, Two-spirit , whatever term we choose requires a detailed explanation if used in communication with others. Personally I like and have used "Third Gender" recently as a term that requires the least amount of definition and a relatively easy concept to grasp by 'outsiders'

[Danielle Gee]

My own tag line says what I feel -- for myself:

TG is what I am; CD is something I do.

That says it for me too , I try not to worry about "labels" as they pertain to anything or anybody ! After all we're all supposed to be God's children

[CindyLouWho]

[SIZE="4"]My dad used to say, "There are two kinds of people, those who divide people into categories and those who don't". 100% of the problems in this world are caused by us v. them. I consider myself to be a woman, not CD or TG or TS. I've known I was a girl since I was 9 years old. Yet I'd bet that there are women on this forum who would disparage my claim because my need to transition never overcame my need to live the life I'm in. I believe labels are just fine, if applied to ones self. However, when we start applying labels to others we run the risk of becoming bigoted and discriminatory and then it's just wrong for us expect acceptance.[/SIZE]

[CharleneT]

I believe that in general use TG is an umbrella term that includes many different folks/beliefs/problems/habits... CD's are part of the whole pool. I am not sure why so many people seem unsure or against having the term transgender applied to them. It is a very generalized term. Here are two definitions from a pamphlet on the subject. They are a decent start at a def:

Anyone who regularly acts and/or appears inconsistent with the social sex-role requirements of males and females is transgender.

OR

Transgender (adj) An umbrella term for any person who noticeably consistently crosses prevailing social sex-role boundaries, through any combination of:

1. personal appearance (clothing and adornment)
2. behavior (personality and mannerisms), or
3. anatomy (body features)

copyright 2009 Claire Ruth Winter

[Satrana]

Why? Doesn't 25% count? Or 10%? Or 2%? Does it have to be all the time, or do episodes count?

I believe that these types of numbers are typical of non-cds as well. I think a male who is 75%M, 25%F is a normal healthy man. Some CD, most do not. That is the crux of my argument.

I think we CDs think non-cd males only have a tiny percentage of female in them and that is why they do not CD, whereas CDs have far more. I believe otherwise. For me the reason they do not CD is because the male gender conditioning was successfully implanted in their thinking and nothing has happened to them to trigger self-awareness of their submerged femininity.

In other words, every male is a potential CD (because CDing is in fact the norm to reflect the whole personality) but the strength of gender conditioning robs men of the ability to access this side of their personality.

[skirtsuit]

I believe that in general use TG is an umbrella term that includes many different folks/beliefs/problems/habits... CD's are part of the whole pool.

"CDs are part of the whole pool". That's where the trouble starts, in my opinion. I am a MTF crossdresser and at 45, I still do it for the sexual thrill and don't feel any more femine when I'm dress. If my crossdressing somehow makes me 'transgendered' then all the women wearing pants in the world are too!

Try this: Next time you see a woman wearing a (say) pinstripe pants suit and loafers, tell her she's transgendered and she what she says...

All the Best,
Skirt Suit, CD not TG