did the truely passable ones ever even look like men?

[Nicole Erin]

I was talking to someone on Second Life the other day, a TS woman, and we got into things about passing well. She was saying that a lot of the MTF TS who pass really well never looked like men to begin with. Maybe they just were always small or feminine, and transitioning just took them completely to the female side.

How true would that be? I know they talk about how important it is to start as early as possible but once that time is passed we can't really go back and fix it. Suppose someone does start after their 20's. If they are pretty masculine, would any amount of plastic surgery or HRT etc really fix that?

I know they always talk about passing is attitude, and granted, attitude and confidence do play a large role but on the looks end, well, whether a pretty or ugly woman, one would have to look it to really blend in well.

My day to day look is more feminine, even in my tee and shorts, and often I pass at a glance as I have been called "ma'am" several times but like for me, I doubt it takes much investigation to see "ahh this is male after all".

So the theory that the truely passsable ones never looked like men to begin with, how true would that be in most cases?
And sorry for the depressing subject.

[Veronica_Jean]

Nicole,

I don't find this depressing at all. I think most of us worry or wonder about this often. It reminds me of once when I was not really trying to pass at all.

I was with my youngest daughter she wanted an outfit at the local dollar store. They do not have a dressing room so we bought the outfit and went next door to the laundry mat and used their restroom. While waiting for her to change, this older woman said to me, "excuse me maam, I could not help noticing your legs. I have the same thing and if you try taking a hot bath, it will help a lot." I have issues with my skin when I am under a lot of stress. I As I turned, she look ed a little surprised and said, "oh, your a man". I simply smiled and thanked her for her good advice and had a short conversation. We hugged as my daughter and I were leaving and I again thanked her for the advice.

So what did she see? Was it a woman or a man? Was it the difference in how I reacted to her after she spoke, or something else? Was I a man when I came in the laundry or a woman that sometimes appears as a man?


So many people (trans and not) get hung up on what they want to define as what makes a man or a woman. For me it is how I perceive myself and how I present myself to the world. I cannot control what others think or say. I can control what I do, how I act or react, and how I choose to present myself to the world. No one is perfect and GGs have times when they could be read as men. I KNOW I am a woman, and always have been. I was raised as a male and expected to live that way. That makes me different, look different, sometimes act different. Does that mean I am a man trying to look and act like a woman? Not to me.

I do try to blend in with other women for many reasons. Sometimes I do better than others.

Clearly the longer we have testosterone making our appearance more masculine the more our bodies will appear male instead of female. That is a fact and it cannot be changed. I'm not sure that should be an issue. I have a lot of things that fit there too. I have three children but I have never been pregnant. I have a lot of pictures of my past that look like a man. It is part of my life and what makes me what and who I am. I don't want to hide that although that does not mean I am going to run around yelling "I was a man for years!!".

I have many of the same desires to have smooth skin, soft, silky, round body, nice breasts, round rear, less or no body hair, rounder soft face, spectacular figure. Many of these can be achieved through hormones and surgery. All they do is enhance my appearance, just like any other woman that dislikes what they see in the mirror. The big difference is that I have parts of my body that come standard on a male type and that is an issue because I am not one.

my .



Veronica

[kellycan27]

I was talking to someone on Second Life the other day, a TS woman, and we got into things about passing well. She was saying that a lot of the MTF TS who pass really well never looked like men to begin with. Maybe they just were always small or feminine, and transitioning just took them completely to the female side.

In my case I would have to say that this is true to a certain extent. In the 2 years I have been on HRT I have noticed changes in hair,skin and some fat re-distribution, but no real major changes. I have implants and have also noticed some slight breast growth maybe a cup size or a little less. When I started to transition I was 5'7.5" about 160 shoe size7.5-8. not muscular by any stretch, I even had some small man boobs,(chubby) and a bubble butt, round face,long thin fingers,narrow shoulders. I believe that I pass extremely well in that some here accuse me of being "stealth"(lol), and I live ,work and play 24/7 as a woman without incident. I am now 126 pounds,have good waist to hip transition, boobs, my own natural long hair and feminine face and I have lost upper body mass. I don't go higher than 4" heels as i don't wish to appear too tall. Oh and I was 22 when I decided to fully transition began HRT at 24.
Kelly

[Empress Lainie]

[SIZE=4]I pass 100%. She told me that before my transition people sometimes thought I was transman, born female.

She said she always felt I was more female than male.

Veronica I know where you are coming from exactly.
I also KNOW I am a woman and have never been happier in my life with my self and looks since my transition.

I also have 3 kids, who seem to be accepting of my new life, but doubt seriously if they understand what is behind it, even though I have sent some treatises and my own journal to them. After two years plus of 24/7 female with female ID and the looks I now have, I can hardly remember living as a male. I have always been me and even though for 72 years I didn't know it, I always had a female mind.

Not very likely I will ever have the money for srs or even have a doctor approve me for it due to having a pacemaker, and history of 5way bypass plus diabetes. But I would do it tomorrow if I could. (So my panties would fit better! (LOL)[/SIZE]

[shirley1]

Hi,

It's a theory I have had for a while but I can't really back it up. When it comes to the issue of passing some people can get very irritated over the subject, I guess it's close to home for many of us. But my theory is how can you expect to pass convincingly as a woman if you can still pass well as a man ? Most women would not make make very convincing men in real life lets face it. Subtle differences at the very least, mainly in the face area. I've been told on a number of occasions that I have quite a feminine face for a guy, well I am don't see myself as a guy but you know what I mean, and yet I have got sirred more times than I can to remember already since I started going out en femme and now full time. And it's not specifically off body language it can't be because sometimes it happens from just someone seeing me stood in que.

I have been told in the past I seem quite feminine for a guy, but I don't recall anyone ever mistaking me for a girl in male mode, even in my teenage years. Well not unless you count someone seeing me from behind at a distance in the days when my hair was quite long. In saying that I think I look quite feminine now in girl mode and have been told as much, but there is a difference between passing a woman, and looking like an attractive trans girl, there is something unmistakably masculine in my facial features and I still haven't been able to work out exactly what it is, I tend to blame my big nose, but a nose alone can't be enough to gender someone can it.

So I think that there might well be element of truth in this thread, maybe some were pretty boys, always looked gender neutral, I don't think I would passed much better if I had transitioned at 19 to be honest, just wouldn't needed facial hair removal so much and had my own full head of hair then so wouldn't have needed wigs for long, sure to have stopped puberty at 12 years old would have made a huge difference, but I think most of damage from testosterone is done between about 13 and 17 years of age.

[kellycan27]

Hi,

It's a theory I have had for a while but I can't really back it up. When it comes to the issue of passing some people can get very irritated over the subject, I guess it's close to home for many of us. But my theory is how can you expect to pass convincingly as a woman if you can still pass well as a man ? Most women would not make make very convincing men in real life lets face it. Subtle differences at the very least, mainly in the face area. I've been told on a number of occasions that I have quite a feminine face for a guy, well I am don't see myself as a guy but you know what I mean, and yet I have got sirred more times than I can to remember already since I started going out en femme and now full time. And it's not specifically off body language it can't be because sometimes it happens from just someone seeing me stood in que.

I have been told in the past I seem quite feminine for a guy, but I don't recall anyone ever mistaking me for a girl in male mode, even in my teenage years. Well not unless you count someone seeing me from behind at a distance in the days when my hair was quite long. In saying that I think I look quite feminine now in girl mode and have been told as much, but there is a difference between passing a woman, and looking like an attractive trans girl, there is something unmistakably masculine in my facial features and I still haven't been able to work out exactly what it is, I tend to blame my big nose, but a nose alone can't be enough to gender someone can it.

So I think that there might well be element of truth in this thread, maybe some were pretty boys, always looked gender neutral, I don't think I would passed much better if I had transitioned at 19 to be honest, just wouldn't needed facial hair removal so much and had my own full head of hair then so wouldn't have needed wigs for long, sure to have stopped puberty at 12 years old would have made a huge difference, but I think most of damage from testosterone is done between about 13 and 17 years of age.

Hormones don't affect facial hair. you're stuck with what you have... unless you have it lasered. At 19 you would probably see some decent body,skin and hair changes. ( body hair) You'ed see some facial skin changes.. softer,smoother. Now if you're Joe the linebacker.... well

[shirley1]

Hormones don't affect facial hair. you're stuck with what you have... unless you have it lasered. At 19 you would probably see some decent body,skin and hair changes. ( body hair) You'ed see some facial skin changes.. softer,smoother. Now if you're Joe the linebacker.... well

12 months on mones and body hair is definitely reduced and grows back finer and slower. 5 laser sessions and I am left with white hairs mostly, it does grow slower and finer now whether that is as a result of laser or hormones or a combination of both I am unsure.

My skin had always been soft so I didn't expect to notice any difference there, and I haven't really. My facial features have definately softened but it is very subtle, I could still do male and pass but perhaps I look a bit effeminate now.

[kellycan27]

12 months on mones and body hair is definitely reduced and grows back finer and slower. 5 laser sessions and I am left with white hairs mostly, it does grow slower and finer now whether that is as a result of laser or hormones or a combination of both I am unsure.

My skin had always been soft so I didn't expect to notice any difference there, and I haven't really. My facial features have definately softened but it is very subtle, I could still do male and pass but perhaps I look a bit effeminate now.

basically what I said as far as changes. I could do male.. with a fake stash....LOL

[AmandaM]

I think that certain men who are TS, are blessed with small features and smaller frames. Especially the face. Some men have very angular or large round faces, noses, foreheads. Some men have small facial features.

[Lisa Golightly]

Oh... people who've seen a few of my male pictures tend to describe me as looking 'like a butch lesbian'. I'll admit even when I tried looking very boy (which I often did in the hope it would feel normal... but never did) I'd still get called 'Miss' in restaurants and the like. My girl friend at the time found one instance hillarious... 'They think we're lesbians' she giggled... I just felt absolute fury. I never really took mistaken gender well as a man... lol.

I often get called love now, and I'm generally dressed just in jeans with no makeup... but I think they're all a bit crackers. I look in the mirror and see a bloke. I often sound like a bloke... If I do the affected voice I end up listening to how badly it's going rather than concentrating on the content. I told Debbie she was going to hear my natural voice after our first call... I just couldn't concentrate... too busy worrying how awful I sounded.

I'm not really that bothered about passing... I know what I am and I accept it. If other people are convinced I'm female in an FAB way... well then they're daft... but I'll let it go.

[MaryAnn40c]

I feel good about myself and really don't care about anybody else. When I dress and go out I do so with my intensions and noboby eles. I enjoy beening a women and would like to be one full time!

[noeleena]

Hi....
H r t. have made many changes for me even now at just on 62 . what are they .
I.v began thinking about being a andro ...more in line of body . hair on my face . is down to about 30 % finer allmost white. skin softer . & my background has a lot to do with that . even though i worked out side . as a chipy .hair on the rest of me is whiter finer . & is down to about 20 % i use a epalater as well . skin is allso quite soft .
the body as to being in line with a woman . look.s that is . so from that side i pass
Face .... yes another story . yet more as a masculine woman . The voice . hmmm. i can just get away with it . i am not that deep . & being a singer in a few choirs i can move my voice . yet i dont try . what does happen is . even as a woman my whole being just goes in to female mode . not unlike being excited .it just happens .
Thats why i.m saying being andro . i have that female side of me that works .& it shows .
...noeleena....

[Lisa Golightly]

When I started to transition I was 5'7.5" about 160 shoe size7.5-8. not muscular by any stretch, I even had some small man boobs,(chubby) and a bubble butt, round face,long thin fingers,narrow shoulders.

You sound like a hobbit... hehehehe *swiftly ducks out of harms way*

[Samantha Kelsey]

Perhaps it's your percepcion of what a normal woman is that makes you think along these lines. There are millions of women who are tall, short, butch looking, almost masculine in physique. Some are real stunners whilst some are quite plain and unattractive. What makes them stand out? It's the way they project themselves and care about their look.

Have a look in the picture & video gallery at the post for His/her photos. Many of them show a real normal he type guy but the femme pics are stunning. In most cases everyone can look good with care and attention to detail.
You only get out what you put in. On the other hand my old granny used to say "you can't make a silk purse out of a pigs ear".

[shirley1]

Photo's can be very deceiving, I'd never tell anyone that I thought that they could pass from seeing a photo of them alone. It's not enough to go on, sure makeup can work wonders, its an art and a skill, it's not easy for some of us to perfect, I got an laser session on Monday and having my brows thinned and shaped, after 3 weeks will be hair free again, well any dark one's will have gone. I am fortunate because from the neck down I have a very slim frame, small hands, narrow feet, slim body build, never did male sports, so no muscle at all. Well 147 pounds and 5ft 10inches speaks for itself, just have a slight tummy, could lose 14 pounds easily without that. Its features in your face though, without ffs, you are relying a lot on hormones to do something to feminise those already masculised features, so if you assume 4 years of male puberty plus in my case 20 further years of minimal masculinization, you are talking 4 years plus before female hormones can stand a chance of reversing that, to any realistic extent.

I guess therefore for most of us confidence has to be the major factor, certainly to begin with, people are less likely to question someone who looks confident in their own skin, they might look at you and think 'is that a man or a woman ?' but then think she is too confident to be a guy dressed. Remember most people in society think it takes a hell of a lot of balls for any guy to dress and go out as a woman, especially guys they think 'I couldn't do it' some think that they would get beaten up, the psychology of it all is also relevant if you stopped to think about it.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

I agree, pics are totally deceiving and that many of the "passable looking" pics are 1 in 100 shots...plus if pictures could talk.......well you get my drift...


Hi Nicole...it sure sounds to me like what you are saying makes sense, and the more manly male your features, the tougher it is to "pass" and to look female

i think this is pretty obvious...and it sucks because it impacts our quality of life in lots of ways,...increased anxiety, tougher to find a job or succeed in your job, etc...it's much more important to someone that's transitioning because you have to survive out there...but that's the boat we are in...

So even tho I agree with your point, i hope you can find the thought less than depressing

All you can do is be yourself, and "feel like" you pass all the time, even if you don't....Although feeling this way 100% time may be difficult, it's a necessary part of being at peace with yourself as a ts woman..and you could argue that feeling good about how you look is a great thing for any person

I am not there yet, but i'm getting better all the time....and it's a virtuous circle, the more you feel you pass, the more you pass, and then you feel even better, on and on.. we can all do this no matter how we look, but it's a given that a gorgeous 18yr old ts girl has a better starting block than me for instance

i have a supportive friend that is a very "hefty" girl....she and i went out the other night and ended up arguing that I would rather be her and she would rather be me!!! LOL....i've gotten very skinny over the last 2 years and she actually said she would do anything to have my 6'2 inch body and hates the way she looks..i said, yea, but people don't stare at you and say --oh look, i think that's a man...

she said, and people don't stare at you and say ---look at that fatso...( she actually used even harsher words to define herself)...she said she is self conscious of her weight everywhere she goes...

and you know what? nobody was staring at either one of us as far as i could tell.

to me that should be instructive to all of us...and to your specific point Nicole...i think that although it can feel pretty depressing too at times, I try to remember that lots of people are not happy with how they look, that's part of the human condition

So i do my best...i am becoming less and less aware of whether i am passing ,and therefore i'm passing much more...
i think some would call me "blissfully ignorant", maybe so, but being in bliss is a very nice feeling.

[Frances]

I never thought I would pass in a millions years. It turns out my features were feminine enough, but I could not see that through the facial (and body hair). I had let myself get overweight, and I was covered in hair (front, back, sides, arms, all over). I was looking at FFS Web sites hoping to get some kind of surgery one day.

I have found that passing is a lot more psychological than people would think (in my opinion, don't attack me please). It is the way you carry yourself, interact with people, and show confidence in your own identity. I am not tall (5' 7" and 3/4), and that helps, but my shoe size is a woman's 10 and my hands are fairly big. As soon as I stopped looking for disapproval in everybody's eyes, I realised that they were not even seeing me, and that I was passing. Somebody asked me very seriously the other day if I had started menopause!

[CharleneT]

...i am becoming less and less aware of whether i am passing ,and therefore i'm passing much more....

BINGO ! Folks, thar's gold in them THAR hills !!

Charlene

[kellycan27]

BINGO ! Folks, thar's gold in them THAR hills !!

Charlene

There ya go..what ever works for ya is what's important.

[joanlynn28]

I had trouble passing at first but all of us had to start out somewhere before we learned how to dress properly and do makeup correctly. Today I am 100% passable and in a year or so post op no one is ever going to know that this girl was ever once a guy. I just can't even imagine myself have ever been male at this point in my life. Size does matter and luckily for me I had small features for a man. I would be mistaken for a girl often when I was a young kid. Once a few times in the past when I was in drab people would refer to me as miss or she which helps out a lot. Hormones and the right attitude is what really matters.

[dilane]

I know four completely passable TS's.

All are in the 5'7 - 5'8 range, and three of them had small features and small bones.

The one who didn't had about 5 facial surgeries and has a perfect femme face, so problem solved.

I know so many physically gifted T girls, who get read in a nanosecond because of their attitude or the way they move, or the anxious expression on their face.

They looked like small handsome guys when in boy mode.

It's much more difficult if you're a taller bear-type, but possible if you move and speak well.

[Melissa A.]

As soon as I stopped looking for disapproval in everybody's eyes, I realised that they were not even seeing me, and that I was passing.

How true, Frances. I don't look for dissaproval. I live my life. If I get stared at, I stare back. If someone smiles at me, I smile. If someone stares at me like I'm an alien, I turn to them and say, "yes, can I help you?" But most of the time, I just live my life, mind my own business. I dont go looking for people's reactions on the subway, or the street, cause I don't care. I'm not quite where you are physically yet(still working on facial hair, whatta pain!) But I've found that in almost any situation, a smile and and a freindly hello will disarm people immediately. If they had any doubt I was human like them, they now know I am, and that I don't bite. Love the piccies, dear! It illustrates that this is possible for almost all of us-the rest is between your ears.

Hugs,

Melissa

[deja true]

And a related question...

Did your slighter stature and knowledge that you probably have more feminine features than the average man, help to convince you that transition was a definite possibility...?

We've already heard from so many that their large bodies and musculature or particularly masculine facial features were a deciding factor for them to NOT transition... (though that's not always the case, of course).

:

[Lisa Golightly]

And a related question...

Did your slighter stature and knowledge that you probably have more feminine features than the average man, help to convince you that transition was a definite possibility...?

I'm built like a carthorse.

[kellycan27]

And a related question...

Did your slighter stature and knowledge that you probably have more feminine features than the average man, help to convince you that transition was a definite possibility...?

We've already heard from so many that their large bodies and musculature or particularly masculine facial features were a deciding factor for them to NOT transition... (though that's not always the case, of course).

:

I think I would have transitioned either way, but being small didn't hurt, and did make it much easier. being able to buy clothes off the rack or shoes in the mainstream places. Greater availability of styles in smaller sizes.