GG Envy

[tricia_uktv]

I've just bought a gorgeous green and gold dress. We can buy and wear what we want.

[kellycan27]

Kelly-you are naughty!!!Mmmmh-like your new avatar.[/QUOTE]

Thank you Laura....... Moi' naughty???
Kelly

[Debutante]

It's just another marketing angle... It is not the women who are rubbing it in your face, it is the fashion industry. For myself, having limited means, I feel frustrated that styles change season to season as much as they do.

Well said, Reine...! We should be so much more aware like you are, as to who is trying to influence us and affect our perceptions...

[LeslieSD]

People are into crossdressing for different reasons, and have different preferences. Personally I am dress to look like a woman, and would not do guy-in-dress mode. But I do admire the courage and respect people who are doing that.

What I found less useful is to whine about the non-acceptance of the society. Talking and complaining is easy and won't help. The do-ers who do get out of the door are giants in action.

Image the women who fought for their right to wear pants a century ago. They faced a far more restrictive society, and a far less accepting public. Talking about the danger of being assulted, a woman back then should have more concern on that than a guy-in-dress now. Though these women pressed ahead and turned the society. They have my respect.

If the question is why the society can accept women wearing men's cloth, that is because they wanted it, fought for it, and got it. They deserve it.

Now go for what you want, and if you don't you deserve not having it.

[Tamara Croft]

Not my fault, I'm out every singe day of my life. Didn't expect that did you? So yes, I am doing something about it. ( Does that mean I can whine now? )

No it doesn't mean you can whine about it, if you're out and about anyway, why did you whine? that makes no sense.

And to those of you who think the world is going to end because you can't wear what you like... well it's not that you can't, it's because you don't have the balls, think about people in other countries, women, who get beaten by the law for wearing trousers/pants..

http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/...d.php?t=112878

[ReineD]

And have I mentioned how much I love ya, Reine?

Awww, Ze, I love you too!

[Leslie Langford]

No it doesn't mean you can whine about it, if you're out and about anyway, why did you whine? that makes no sense.

And to those of you who think the world is going to end because you can't wear what you like... well it's not that you can't, it's because you don't have the balls, think about people in other countries, women, who get beaten by the law for wearing trousers/pants..

http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/...d.php?t=112878

..and those women who have submitted to domination and subjugation in countries where fundamentalist religious zealots rule deserve our fullest sympathy and support, as they are fighting a similar battle against prejudice, misogyny, and an unrelenting movement to "keep them in their place". Women in those countries should not fear getting 40 lashes for wearing pants or failing to wear a headscarf, just as we males with an affinity for women's clothing should not have to fear being the victim of a hate crime perpetrated by some homophobe. One type of violence may be institutionalized and the other more random and vigilante-like, but the end result to the victim will be the same.

It's all well and good to talk about b&lls or the lack thereof, but there is a significant difference between courage and recklessness, and having the equivalent of "He Had the Right of Way" inscribed on one's tombstone doesn't make the brave and righteous victim any less dead.

There are more intelligent ways to claim our rights to wear whatever type of clothing we wish besides an all-out confrontational approach, and each one of us here is proceeding in that direction at our own pace and in accordance with our own comfort levels. The vast number of CDers who are now out and about and claiming their rightful place in society is proof of that. And speaking for myself, I think that I am already showing plenty of b&lls going out cross-dressed and interacting with the general public without worrying about what others might think. I doubt that any of my macho jock friends would ever consider doing the same - they already get weak in the knees when their SO's ask them to pick up a box of tampons for them at the supermarket on the way home from work.

I really have a problem with the way the word "whining" ("whingeing ?") is being indiscriminately bandied about in this thread. Calling attention to an issue and talking about it does not necessarily put it into that category. Doing nothing about it, however, does, and nowhere has it been said here that we should simply accept the status quo when it comes to societal pressures that discourage males form wearing women's clothes while openly presenting as males. Boundaries are being pushed, it's just that women are already so far ahead of us on that score and have already staked out their territory. And yes, we have much to learn from them in that respect.

[Violetgray]

Hmm... soo much to say.

It's very simple. Many men wish they could wear clothing of "the other gender" and not have to face ridicule. They can't. Women can wear wear trousers and flanel and not face ridicule. It makes sense that the men feel like they're getting the raw end of the deal. By the way FtM cd's do NOT have the ridicule issue to the same extent the mtf's do. Why? Because:

A female in any ol' pair of jeans and any ol' shirt is fine.

A male in any ol' dress or any ol' skirt is NOT fine.

My female friend could select any of my boy clothes and put them on, and no one would give her a second glance. She'd have to have very masculine cues OTHER than the clothes, like a buzz cut or carry herself in a masculine way.

The reverse is not true. If I decided to slip into her dress, that would be all I need to be subjected to ridicule. I wouldn't need pigtails and lipstick.

There IS an imbalance, and it is perfectly reasonable to be displeased about it. Comments along the line of "tough sh-t" or "stop whining" are insensitive, and in no way constructive. The need to vent is a human thing, and "stop whining" has never been a constructive comment, never in the history of mankind.

And by the way, it took a WORLD WAR for women in pants to be made acceptable. It's not like all the women got together and said, "screw equal pay and positions of authority, dammit, we're wearing pants!" If it weren't for the depleted male industrial workforce as a result of a world-changing event western women might STILL only be wearing skirts. So until an international crisis depletes all our women and men NEED to fill those positions that must wear dresses, the argument is not quite valid.

At the heart of the matter here, is that the OP made a controversial, if understandable lament, and women (and some others) felt like they were being blamed for something.

This is not necessarily the Way Things Are, it's just what it looks like to me.

[Jamie001]

Women constantly adopt items from men's fashion including neckties, mens shoes, etc. The difference is that women just do it and don't act guilty and cower in the closet. Many crossdressers are ashamed about what they are wearing and choose to hide in the closet and act like they are doing something illegal. Until this attitude changes and they accept themselves, the situation will never get any better. Most women are individuals whereas most men are pack animals and don't want to seem different from the pack. Unfortunately they were taught this at a very early age. You have to accept yourself and get out there and be proud of who you are and what you are wearing. That is the only way to affect change.

Hmm... soo much to say.

It's very simple. Many men wish they could wear clothing of "the other gender" and not have to face ridicule. They can't. Women can wear wear trousers and flanel and not face ridicule. It makes sense that the men feel like they're getting the raw end of the deal. By the way FtM cd's do NOT have the ridicule issue to the same extent the mtf's do. Why? Because:

A female in any ol' pair of jeans and any ol' shirt is fine.

A male in any ol' dress or any ol' skirt is NOT fine.

My female friend could select any of my boy clothes and put them on, and no one would give her a second glance. She'd have to have very masculine cues OTHER than the clothes, like a buzz cut or carry herself in a masculine way.

The reverse is not true. If I decided to slip into her dress, that would be all I need to be subjected to ridicule. I wouldn't need pigtails and lipstick.

There IS an imbalance, and it is perfectly reasonable to be displeased about it. Comments along the line of "tough sh-t" or "stop whining" are insensitive, and in no way constructive. The need to vent is a human thing, and "stop whining" has never been a constructive comment, never in the history of mankind.

And by the way, it took a WORLD WAR for women in pants to be made acceptable. It's not like all the women got together and said, "screw equal pay and positions of authority, dammit, we're wearing pants!" If it weren't for the depleted male industrial workforce as a result of a world-changing event western women might STILL only be wearing skirts. So until an international crisis depletes all our women and men NEED to fill those positions that must wear dresses, the argument is not quite valid.

At the heart of the matter here, is that the OP made a controversial, if understandable lament, and women (and some others) felt like they were being blamed for something.

This is not necessarily the Way Things Are, it's just what it looks like to me.

[Violetgray]

Women constantly adopt items from men's fashion including neckties, mens shoes, etc. The difference is that women just do it and don't act guilty and cower in the closet.

You are right about this. But my point was that this is easier said than done, and that perhaps the only reason that this door was opened to women at all was the absolute necessity of the times.

[SirTrey]

By the way FtM cd's do NOT have the ridicule issue to the same extent the mtf's do.

There are very few FtM crossdressers...Most FtM's are transgendered/transsexuals and, for us, it's NOT a simple matter of putting on men's clothes.....Transitioning entails a lot more than that....then we have to get out there and deal with the same things that you do...bathroom issues, passing, etc. Try stuffing yourself into a skin-tight, hot binder and wearing it everywhere you go all summer....You think we can just put on men's clothes and no one will notice the boobs? And, if they can, are you really cross-dressing? Not all FtM's go on testosterone....and, admittedly, testosterone DOES do a lot to help an FtM pass....but, you think clothes are enough for those who do not go on it to pass? No, it takes binding, making a lot of changes, cutting their hair, etc., and once you do all of that, do you really think they don't get harrassed like you do when they ARE read? You have obviously not seen Boys Don't Cry....There are lots of good old boys out there who would just LOVE to kick the asses of "uppity chicks who dare to think they are men", trust Me on that. The point is, we ALL have problems....Why do we have to constantly debate whose are worse??? Geez.

[Violetgray]

There are very few FtM crossdressers...Most FtM's are transgendered/transsexuals and, for us, it's NOT a simple matter of putting on men's clothes.....Transitioning entails a lot more than that....then we have to get out there and deal with the same things that you do...bathroom issues, passing, etc. Try stuffing yourself into a skin-tight, hot binder and wearing it everywhere you go all summer....You think we can just put on men's clothes and no one will notice the boobs? And, if they can, are you really cross-dressing? Not all FtM's go on testosterone....and, admittedly, testosterone DOES do a lot to help an FtM pass....but, you think clothes are enough for those who do not go on it to pass? No, it takes binding, making a lot of changes, cutting their hair, etc., and once you do all of that, do you really think they don't get harrassed like you do when they ARE read? You have obviously not seen Boys Don't Cry....There are lots of good old boys out there who would just LOVE to kick the asses of "uppity chicks who dare to think they are men", trust Me on that. The point is, we ALL have problems....Why do we have to constantly debate whose are worse??? Geez.

You kind of prove my point here. A physical woman who is transitioning to be a physical man would like to be excepted as such, and is that is his right. But I think that you would agree that this isn't the same as a woman who casually wear men's clothing. But go back to the original post. It was about being able to casually wear the clothing of the opposite gender. That's what the "envy" is about.

And one thing that you are right about is the "Who has it worse" competition. I tried my best to avoid that (FAIL) but, it seemed to me as though "Look what the ftm's have to put up with" was being used to invalidate the feelings of mtf's who felt this way, and I was simply pointing out that the comparison (which has not much to do with ftm or mtf ts's at all when you think about it) is not really balanced.

[SirTrey]

This only turns into a debate when FtM's are brought into it...and it was several times in the thread...A GG who wears men's clothes is not an FtM....They are two completely different things....That was My only point....One thing we can definitely agree on, cd or trans of either gender, it isn't easy, that's for sure.

[TGMarla]

There IS an imbalance, and it is perfectly reasonable to be displeased about it. Comments along the line of "tough sh-t" or "stop whining" are insensitive, and in no way constructive. The need to vent is a human thing, and "stop whining" has never been a constructive comment, never in the history of mankind.

That's a very good point. So I'll back off my earlier comments a bit. Not completely, but I accept your point here.

[Alice Green]

I wish it was fully ok for a guy to wear women's cloths out in public without trying to pass. I know I can't pass, but would it be so wrong if I wanted to wear a dress.

[SirTrey]

I wish it was fully ok for a guy to wear women's cloths out in public without trying to pass. I know I can't pass, but would it be so wrong if I wanted to wear a dress.

I wish it was, too....and I believe that it eventually will be....hopefully sooner, not later....that's one of the things we are all fighting so hard to achieve....cd, trans, whatever and whoever you are....it's your right to BE that...and nobody has the right to tell you how to be or what to wear.

[ReineD]

There IS an imbalance, and it is perfectly reasonable to be displeased about it. Comments along the line of "tough sh-t" or "stop whining" are insensitive, and in no way constructive. The need to vent is a human thing, and "stop whining" has never been a constructive comment, never in the history of mankind.

The world is full of imbalances and injustices. Male superiority is one of them. It is what it is. A woman could, and I expect many do, complain about this. Or, she could choose to be proactive and do her bit to advocate for women's equality. And then post about that somewhere, alongside her feelings of frustration if she needs to.

Some people look at the glass half empty. It is their prerogative, but it doesn't solve anything. In fact, it can even incite others to stay focused on the problem.

At the heart of the matter here, is that the OP made a controversial, if understandable lament, and women (and some others) felt like they were being blamed for something.

Yes, this forum is a good place to vent feelings of envy and frustration. Everyone has days when they feel discouraged. But it is hard for women not to feel blamed after reading comments like this one:

Bad enough that GG's have far more fashion options than we CDers do, but do they really need to rub our noses in it continuously?

[Leslie Langford]

Hmm... soo much to say.

It's very simple. Many men wish they could wear clothing of "the other gender" and not have to face ridicule. They can't. Women can wear wear trousers and flanel and not face ridicule. It makes sense that the men feel like they're getting the raw end of the deal. By the way FtM cd's do NOT have the ridicule issue to the same extent the mtf's do. Why? Because:

A female in any ol' pair of jeans and any ol' shirt is fine.

A male in any ol' dress or any ol' skirt is NOT fine.

My female friend could select any of my boy clothes and put them on, and no one would give her a second glance. She'd have to have very masculine cues OTHER than the clothes, like a buzz cut or carry herself in a masculine way.

The reverse is not true. If I decided to slip into her dress, that would be all I need to be subjected to ridicule. I wouldn't need pigtails and lipstick.

There IS an imbalance, and it is perfectly reasonable to be displeased about it. Comments along the line of "tough sh-t" or "stop whining" are insensitive, and in no way constructive. The need to vent is a human thing, and "stop whining" has never been a constructive comment, never in the history of mankind.

And by the way, it took a WORLD WAR for women in pants to be made acceptable. It's not like all the women got together and said, "screw equal pay and positions of authority, dammit, we're wearing pants!" If it weren't for the depleted male industrial workforce as a result of a world-changing event western women might STILL only be wearing skirts. So until an international crisis depletes all our women and men NEED to fill those positions that must wear dresses, the argument is not quite valid.

At the heart of the matter here, is that the OP made a controversial, if understandable lament, and women (and some others) felt like they were being blamed for something.

This is not necessarily the Way Things Are, it's just what it looks like to me.

...you seem to be among the few who actually "got" what I was trying say in the first place in my original post.

The irony in all of this, of course, is that the essence of this discussion might become academic anyway in a few short generations. New evidence is being brought forth every day that the males of most species are becoming endangered and at risk of becoming extinct altogether.

There are strong indications that all of the pollution in our environment and the tens of thousands of synthetic chemicals which have been introduced into our world over the last 50 - 60 years with little consideration for the long term effects (think DDT, Dioxin, and Agent Orange, among others) are particularly damaging to males. Birth rates of males vs. females have been dropping at an alarming rate in many countries, and in many cases genital development to full maturity is being stunted. The "Y" chromosome which defines "maleness" is also under siege, and carries far fewer genes than it used to - to the point of soon becoming redundant. Even sperm cells will no longer need to come from males in the near future - they will soon be replicated in laboratories, what with all the advances in stem cell research these days.

So eventually, we will all be females anyway, and what used to be considered male clothing will become unisex in the true meaning of the word.

Will that then relegate "traditional" female clothing such as skirts, dresses, pantyhose, and high heels to a historical curiosity, only to be worn by role-playing actors seeking to emulate the culture of a bygone era, much like Renaissance fairs or Civil War re-enactments ?

[kellycan27]

Why don't you guys band together, dawn your skirts,dresses and 5o'clock shadows and make a stand? safety in numbers and all that? I f you feel so strongly.... take a stand. You want to see things change but none of you seem willing to make change. Everyone wants to be accepted, but nobody wants to step up to the plate. Maybe that is why people consider it whining.
Each group within our group has to make some kind of statement whether they be TS,cross dressers,F2M or what have you. Not everyone will accept everyone else..... fact of life. So you can let fear rule how you live yours and you can piss and moan until the cows come home, but to what end?
IMHO opinion comparing and complaining about what gg's get away with is petty. next thing you'll be complaining about is the fact that they have bigger breasts and that it just isn't fair. A lot of us who made a stand were just as scared as you are, but we did it anyway. We all have our demons.

[ReineD]

Will that then relegate "traditional" female clothing such as skirts, dresses, pantyhose, and high heels to a historical curiosity, only to be worn by role-playing actors seeking to emulate the culture of a bygone era, much like Renaissance fairs or Civil War re-enactments ?

Yes, I think current male and female clothing will be relegated to the historical closet. This happens with every generation. But with the advent of a unisex society, I expect we'll see an entirely new fashion style, one that is a complete departure from anything remotely connected to gender styles as we know them now, and made with nanomaterials engineered to continuously change along with our bodies as we age. This will eliminate the need to replenish outfits every season. I expect the new outfits will fit like a second skin, making it seem as if we have nothing on, and they will also be engineered to be self cleaning. I imagine that this fabric will have the ability to take on one of millions of colours and patterns that have been programmed into it, such that we will be able to change our look on a whim. No. Better yet, the nanofabric will monitor our brain activity somehow and it will continuously change it's surface appearance based on our changing moods and physiological well-being. And we'll never have to take our second skins off, since they will also be sensitive to climate changes and they will always keep our bodies at an ideal temperature.

(Written because it was fun to imagine, not out of malice or sarcasm)

[Deb The Brunette]

Why don't you guys band together, dawn your skirts,dresses and 5'oclock shadows and make a stand? saftey in numbers and all that? I f you feel so stongly.... take a stand. You want to see things change but none of you seem willing to make change. Everyone wants to be accepted, but nobody wants to step up to the plate. Maybe that is why people consider it whinning.
Each group within our group has to make some kind of statement wether they be TS,crossdressers,F2M or what have you. Not everyone will accept everyone else..... fact of life. So you can let fear rule how you live yours and you can piss and moan until the cows come home, but to what end?
IMHO opinion comparing and complaining about what gg's get away with is petty. next thing you'll be complaining about is the fact that they have bigger breasts and that it just isn't fair. A lot of us who made a stand were just as scared as you are, but we did it anyway. We all have our demons.

Go girl








.


.

[Violetgray]

Why don't you guys band together, dawn your skirts,dresses and 5o'clock shadows and make a stand? safety in numbers and all that? I f you feel so strongly.... take a stand. You want to see things change but none of you seem willing to make change.
Everyone wants to be accepted, but nobody wants to step up to the plate. Maybe that is why people consider it whining.
Each group within our group has to make some kind of statement whether they be TS,cross dressers,F2M or what have you. Not everyone will accept everyone else..... fact of life. So you can let fear rule how you live yours and you can piss and moan until the cows come home, but to what end?

You make assumptions here. Do you know whether or not this person or that is trying to do their part in some way? More importantly, do you know what it means for each person? For some, their jobs, their marriages, their lives as they know it are at stake. I agree that progress isn't going to make itself, but it's often more complicated than that, and I can't blame some people for feeling helpless.

The general idea I get from this post is that "If you're not some sort of activist then you have no right to feel this way." This is backwards. You have to feel like things aren't fair BEFORE you can do anything about it.

IMHO opinion comparing and complaining about what gg's get away with is petty. next thing you'll be complaining about is the fact that they have bigger breasts and that it just isn't fair. A lot of us who made a stand were just as scared as you are, but we did it anyway. We all have our demons.

There's a BIG difference between something you can change, like the clothes you wear, and something that grows attached to you, like boobs. Making the decision to wear a dress is VERY different than making the decision to have boobs. Also, who are the "A lot of us who made a stand?" Wouldn't this contradict your "But no one wants to step up to the plate" sentence earlier?

[Leslie Langford]

Yes, I think current male and female clothing will be relegated to the historical closet. This happens with every generation. But with the advent of a unisex society, I expect we'll see an entirely new fashion style, one that is a complete departure from anything remotely connected to gender styles as we know them now, and made with nanomaterials engineered to continuously change along with our bodies as we age. This will eliminate the need to replenish outfits every season. I expect the new outfits will fit like a second skin, making it seem as if we have nothing on, and they will also be engineered to be self cleaning. I imagine that this fabric will have the ability to take on one of millions of colours and patterns that have been programmed into it, such that we will be able to change our look on a whim. No. Better yet, the nanofabric will monitor our brain activity somehow and it will continuously change it's surface appearance based on our changing moods and physiological well-being. And we'll never have to take our second skins off, since they will also be sensitive to climate changes and they will always keep our bodies at an ideal temperature.

(Written because it was fun to imagine, not out of malice or sarcasm)

...those nanomaterial second skin suits sound pretty awesome, but somehow I can't imagine that wearing one of them will come even remotely close to the wonderful feel of silky, lacy panties against my tush, the way sheer and gauzy pantyhose feel against my freshly shaved legs, or even the delightful sensation of wearing light, airy, and filmy camisoles.

If we are to fully go unisex in that Brave New World of yours, please, please, please don't let it include boxers, briefs, neckties or shirts with starched, stiff collars .

[Ze]

If we are to fully go unisex in that Brave New World of yours, please, please, please don't let it include boxers, briefs, neckties or shirts with starched, stiff collars .

Says you.

[SirTrey]

If we are to fully go unisex in that Brave New World of yours, please, please, please don't let it include boxers, briefs, neckties or shirts with starched, stiff collars .

If we are going strictly for comfort here, we will also need to eliminate tight corsets and bustiers....high heels (especially spiked heels).....nylons, tights (way too hot, generally not comfortable, rip easily).....hmmm......girdles, well, that's a given....shorts and short skirts (at least in summer, makes your legs stick to the chair).....Hey, what's uncomfortable about boxers??? I think they are the most comfortable thing, ever.....guess it depends on what you consider comfortable.....

<<Added to list>> Push up bras and any type of thong (or any article of clothing that rides up the crack).