Acceptance and womens' world

[MissConstrued]

So the question is this: Could some of the resistance or unacceptance that some encounter in women

Huh? What resistance?

Ya know, it really cracks me up. For a forum full of guys who talk about "emulating" (cue angelic music) women, you sure don't know a damn thing about what makes women tick.

I've seen the Fabios of the world strike out with the barflies, and seen the ugliest, gawkiest, nerdiest guys pick up the babes. It's not your looks, your car, your education, or your hobbies. It's Wye-Oh-You... you. That guy you shave with in the morning.

[Sandra]

There is an oxymoron...

Based on what I have heard from males who admire a CD/TS/TG all that focus on catering to women is getting lost somewhere. So many men seem fed up with the garbage they have to put up from a GG if they are married to one or just dating. The first response of a married GG to a husband, "what could that fag possibly have that I don't..." Most CDs I know genuinely care about there appearance, something there wives or g/f seem to loose sight of once the have "hooked" a guy.

Women say they want their men to be masculine yet they do their best to emasculate them.

Even though they may consider our encroachment into their world as an invasion of there space--by shopping for women's cloths, makeup, or gettin a pedicure--I think they need to get over it cause we are here to stay.

Okay, I am off my soapbox.

WOW who rattled your cage

I for one do not think it is an encroachment into "my" world not is it an invasion of my space, but what does me off is sweeping statements like yours.

You really need to read some of the threads on this forum from the wives/partners.

[Marisa_M]

I doubt that that is the reason.

Most who disapprove seem to do so on moral grounds.

And it seems that there aren't that many who disapprove who aren't directly affected by the CDer.

I agree with Donna and I also doubt that that is the reason.
Could be moral grounds, fear to the unknown and also that most women just think of men with the stereotyped "macho" image.

[skirtsuit]

Jeez, calm down!

It was just an idle hypothetical question and is not representative of my own experience or attitude, I really didn't mean to be kicking any hornet's nests.

Personally, I thought that the idea of a connection between each sex's relationship with their own clothes and the 'inequality' between FTM and MTF was absolutely brillant, if I can say so myself!

All the Best,
Ann / SS

[ReineD]

Jeez, calm down!

It was just an idle hypothetical question and is not representative of my own experience or attitude, I really didn't mean to be kicking any hornet's nests.

Trouble is, there are lots of people in forums such as this one who are looking for answers and until they feel stronger within themselves, they are apt to take on someone else's answers or suggestions as their own; for example, a newbie like Paulette in post #9. Your OP was quite negative, implying a jealous and petty protection of a woman's "exclusive" realm, that simply doesn't exist. If this is not your experience and you do not believe that women are this spiteful, then why did you propose such an hostile hypothesis?

I would suggest you consider that CDs AND their partners or family members do read this forum, and in the future perhaps you might be more respectful of their feelings.

[skirtsuit]

Sorry Reine, but you have completely misunderstood both the spirit and intent of my post.

I will not try to explain or justify it except to say that people who know me know I'm an analytical & philosophical type of guy. I would NEVER do anything to discourage CDs, as I love them and am one myself.

All the Best,
Your Favorite Accidental Hornets Nest Kicker

PS - note too that many of my original comments are relevant to many of the recent threads on this forum

[Lady JayDee]

Personally, I dont have any issues with sharing my spa or whatever with a cross dresser/ TS whatever.

My issues come from very individual and personal circumstances that have occurred between my husband and I.

I think a lot of women are like this. When I was single I loved to spend a lot of my time in the "gay village" because I didn't get harrassed by dodgy men and I loved the open mindedness of the area - everyone was accepted whether you were gay, male, female, bi, transgender, cross dresser - whatever.

It IS unusual to share a usually "womans" area with a man - so yes you may get some looks etc. But I would say this is completely normal human instinct and once they have given you a couple of glances they wouldnt look your way again, and if they did it would be to make friendly conversation

I think the problem is is that we all need to understand that we are all only human and will have normal human reactions to things. If we can get past that initial knee-jerk then I think most of us settle into a much more comfortable place where we can get past the "male/female" thing and just enjoy each others company in whatever setting we choose to be in.

[sissystephanie]

Spoken like a true homophobe. Sounds like just as Veronica has made a rash statement, so have you.You don't need to defend your sexuality here. I doubt that anyone really cares whether or not your gay,str8,bi or what have you.

Sorry, Kelly, but you are dead wrong. I am about as far from a homophobe as anyone you know. In fact, I have several homosexual friends. Being a homophobe is a problem in itself, and not one I care to have. If a person is nice to me, I don't care what color they are, what race, or what their sexual orientation is. And I wasn't defending my own sexuality, I was merely stating the facts! I do hope that people really don't care, and juding from what I see when I am out in public as a guy in skirt, they don't!! I was in two different Malls today, and got very few looks and no comments!

[skirtsuit]

Dear Lady JD,

Thank you for a real women's perspective on the matter. I agree, people are people and I have met many very nice people in my new 'opening' as a CD.

This was all started by an idle thought as I was sitting in the MAC cosmetics store getting matched for foundation and powder. All I thought was I wouldn't blame a women customer for doing a double take or not being exactly sure what to think about a guy sitting in one of the chairs in an upscale makeup salon. That's all. I had a great time in the MAC, by the way. Nice people, but credit card sad.

All the Best,
Ann / SS

[charlie]

Hello Skirtsuit!
The women that I meet when I'm out and dressed for the most part compliment my outfit, laugh among themselves or smile and nod their heads. A few greet me and talk to me about my dressing, makeup what they use ....The negative part comes from family that thinks as men we should not be wearing girls clothes and acting fem. Only room jfor one woman around the house and it is not the man!

[Lady JayDee]

Dear Lady JD,

Thank you for a real women's perspective on the matter. I agree, people are people and I have met many very nice people in my new 'opening' as a CD.

This was all started by an idle thought as I was sitting in the MAC cosmetics store getting matched for foundation and powder. All I thought was I wouldn't blame a women customer for doing a double take or not being exactly sure what to think about a guy sitting in one of the chairs in an upscale makeup salon. That's all. I had a great time in the MAC, by the way. Nice people, but credit card sad.

All the Best,
Ann / SS

Well I salute you for having the guts to go to the make up counter in the first place! I hope they did you justice! Everytime I have been to such a place I end up looking like a clown...

[dawnmarrie1961]

OK. I will admit I got off to a bad start on this thread.I was having fun, feeling kinda fiesty, when I should have taken the thread more seriously. So I am re-reading it. Having read some of the responses which seem disturbing familiar in their furious "don't tread on me " attitude like the bathroom debates that erupt here from time to time like bad plumbing.

Skirtsuit, you used the word "un acceptance" in the context of how woman feel about cross dressers invading there separate private world. (Thanks for starting the thread. I hope you don't mind if I put it to bed?!!)

Big mistake. Given your audience.
You are talking to a bunch of individual who by definition have no regard for any woman's private world. Many cross dressers and transsexuals reason , incorrectly, that since they are imitating a woman they have the inalienable right to encroach on even the most intimate and private places of female solitude that they so desire without regard to being welcomed or accepted to do so.

This is simply bad behavior and needs to be corrected if any group expects ever to be accepted by society.

Is it any wonder then that even the mention of "un acceptance" to a group of people, who still have problems accepting themselves, should spark such heated responses. I would not call this exchange of words to be any form of debate. Debate implies the ability to "reason". I see no reason here. Just an anger mob. Mobs can't be reasoned with.

Grow up, girls!

Nuff said.

Be safe. Be smart.

Dawn Marrie

[Stephanie Heplby]

ReineD writes:

[...] There is no exclusive women's world except the one you perceive in your mind. In fact, it is men who have traditionally wanted to keep women out of their worlds, not the other way around.

[...] When I go shopping or to a salon or spa, I do not feel threatened in the least if I see a CD or a cis-male there. [...]

I truly value everyone's insights as they contribute to a wider understanding of our complicated world. In that vein, I would ask if (perhaps) you (Reine) might be reacting a touch too viscerally to this (potentially awkwardly worded) thought experiment by Skirtsuit...

Further, I would point out what you probably already know, but decided not to address in your post... There are spheres that are exclusively the realm of women. Admittedly, there are not nearly as many as there are for men, but they exist just the same.

Continuing, I might point out that women's spheres have varying levels of separation from men's spheres, depending on the culture in question. In the U.S., the separation is not as pronounced (though that also varies by region and sub-culture).

Let me suggest a scenario from real-life:

What is a bridal shower, male sphere, women's sphere, or gender neutral? If you answered anything other than "women's sphere" , I posit that you might want to re-examine your answer.

I have been to bridal showers that were not expressly listed as "men welcome". While it all ended well and everyone had a good time, this was clearly an 'invasion' or a 'transgression'.

Does this fit the thought experiment suggested by Skirtsuit?

Take another, more fictional example (though based on historical research)... Have you read the wonderful book, The Red Tent? If not, I highly recommend it. Either way, the author presents a separation of men's and women's worlds. Movement between those worlds was restricted and there was tension.

Well, we might say, this is both fictive and historical, what relevance could it possibly have for us?

A lot.

How many people here live in small-towns? My experience is that small towns (in most of the world) tend to have more of the 'traditional' separation of gender spheres. Crossing these lines in either direction is a no-no.

Women are hated when they cross into men's spheres. Men are barely tolerated when crossing into women's. If a man joined a small town quilting club, he would be accepted. BUT (and that is a big but), he would be talked about behind his back. He is less of a man ("bless his heart") and would be better if he just met the right woman ("bless his heart").

Sorry if for the length, but I wanted to fully articulate a different perspective.

Maybe Skirtsuit could have done a better job explaining the rationale behind the thought experiment, but that does not mean that there is no value in thinking it through.

[skirtsuit]

My OP:

Could some of the resistance or unacceptance that some encounter in women

Apparently there is a big difference between reading, re-reading and understanding

Using the word 'unacceptance' in the sophticated context above is in not judgmental and certainly not a 'big mistake'!

All the Best,
unacceptance
unacceptance
unacceptance
unacceptance

PS Dear Moderator - Can you delete this thread?
I'm sorry I started it. I didn't know a little philosophical speculation would cause sooo much trouble

[ReineD]

OK, Skirtsuit, I'll extend an olive branch. And I won't even mention your comment about a "real" woman's perspective.

I will believe that you were merely expressing a thought to see if others have thought the same.

Take care.

---------------------

What is a bridal shower, male sphere, women's sphere, or gender neutral? If you answered anything other than "women's sphere" , I posit that you might want to re-examine your answer.

I do not deny there are private parties, clubs, and organizations for both men and women, as there are separate sports teams, and even some schools that are not coed. But I read Skirtsuit's comments to mean broader, more public places that traditionally cater to women, such as retail stores, spas, and salons. But even the salons have changed. The barber shops that didn't cut women's hair have all but disappeared since the men have joined the 'dark side' and now visit hair stylists along with women.

Women are hated when they cross into men's spheres. Men are barely tolerated when crossing into women's. If a man joined a small town quilting club, he would be accepted. BUT (and that is a big but), he would be talked about behind his back. He is less of a man ("bless his heart") and would be better if he just met the right woman ("bless his heart").

While your first statement certainly was true for many years if you think of the glass ceiling and it might still be true, your second statement is questionable as it is far too broad. Yes, there are some activities that have traditionally attracted women only, and there may be some groups in some areas that would look askance if a man joined, but this has changed as the gender divide got narrower. Women love to see a male engage in the 'softer' activities. He shows a sensitivity that any woman loves to see in a man. Just think of a cooking class with the one male student. And yes, even a quilting club. The guy would be the center of attention and every woman there would want to be his mentor.

This is beside the point, but I would keep this in mind if I were a CDer looking to find dates.

Women generally accept others into their fold. It is the men who are generally known to be competitive and territorial. So it does not surprise me that some CDers might tend to project how they feel onto GGs.

[Hali]

To quote:

"Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering."

People fear what is new, what they don't know. They have no idea what a crossdresser is like and they fear to find out. There's something different about us, and they don't know what it is. I'd say that's the basis of it all.

I think what u r saying has some truth in it.

[Lisa Golightly]

I don't see anything private about it... Never bothered me asking about mascara or if they had my size shoes.

[PaulaJaneThomas]

Using the word 'unacceptance' in the sophticated context above is in not judgmental and certainly not a 'big mistake'!

The opposite of acceptance is non-acceptance not unacceptance. So much for sophistication

[Ralph]

So the question is this: Could some of the resistance or unacceptance that some encounter in women be simply from feeling that CDing intrudes too much on their seperate private world?

Well, at least this question as a simple, no-brain answer: No. Nein. Nyet. It's because we're seen as homosexual at best, freaks and perverts at worst (and most often). Has anyone with a beef against crossdressing EVER said anything about feeling like we're intruding on her world? No, it's all "that's not natural" and suchlike.

[MissConstrued]

No, it's all "that's not natural" and suchlike.

But Oak Express is!