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Thread: Autogynephilia, anybody?

  1. #51
    Breakin' social taboos TGMarla's Avatar
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    If back pedaling was an Olympic Sport I'm sure you'd have a shot at the Gold.
    Yeah, Reine. I think she was cracking on me. I guess while I understand the concept of autogynephilia, I just don't feel this terrible rage towards Blanchard over it. Har har.

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  2. #52
    Girly Girl christinek's Avatar
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    I think another long word not used here is Transvestic Fetishism.

    I have read the previous and most has been spoken so I digress.

  3. #53
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    I Am Me But I Don't Believe That You Are You

    Oh FFS (charming acronym) people are subjects, not objects. We express our sexuality subjectively. Are women who have breast implants or want them, and are sexually excited about having or wanting them, suffering from autogynephilia? Not likely, because we all view ourselves as sexual subjects not as sexual objects. It is only other people who objectify us.

    What Blanchard and other people like him, including the ones who validate his supreme stupidity and offensiveness, will not allow is that someone who is born with a penis can be a female subject or feminine subject in any meaningful way and express their subjective femaleness or subjective femininity in a sexual manner that is satisfying to them. Blanchard’s opinions imply that every person with a penis is either a healthy authentic male or a sick male. He probably views people with vaginas in a similar or dimmer light. Blanchard’s opinions reduce some people to penis objects who objectify themselves as vagina objects. He denies the basic humanity of TG and TS people.

    Do people who masturbate get excited because they imagine having sex with themselves? Perhaps Blanchard and a few others do. Everyone else imagines themselves as a sexual subject who is expressing their sexual subjectivity.

    Is it difficult for TG and TS people to find compatible sexual partners and maintain relationships with them? Yes it is. The primary reason is that most people (who are not TG or TS) don’t respect the authenticity of TG and TS self-identification, and they don't respect the natural expression of personal TG and TS humanity and personal TG and TS subjectivity.
    Last edited by Pink Person; 08-30-2009 at 02:21 AM.

  4. #54
    Gold Member Kaitlyn Michele's Avatar
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    auto
    a combining word meaning self

    gyno
    a combining word meaning self

    philia
    a combining form used in the formation of compound words that have the general sense “unnatural attraction” (necrophilia),

    why would anybody "like" being defined as having an unnatural attraction that is compared to necrophilia

    what is wrong with being a fetish crossdresser or having any nondangerous fetish (unlike like dangerous fetishes that hurt others including corpses..heh)
    , if you do enjoy dangerous fetishes, then you can fantasize in your mind about any type of sexual pleasure,

    The term autogynephilia was created AS a perjorative term...it does not at all describe the reality that I and others have personally experienced..transsexuals care DEEPLY about the word because most of us view it as quackery and folks like Dr Blanchard are part of the group that is working to define us in the next DSM...it matters..how it is defined medically has all kinds of reprecussions for those of us that seek treatment or surgery..doctors can hurt us...go look up Dr John Money...

    so i would respectfully ask that we simply not use that term..what term should we use?? who cares...just not a term coined by a self serving man using incredibly flawed research...

    but it doesnt mean that there are alot alot alot of girls that either enjoyed sexual pleasure or a release of anxiety through their testosterone laden existence...

    my educated GUESS is that for ts women that felt sexual things about themselves it is about coping with the confusing feelings regarding just knowing you are a girl but genetically being a boy....

  5. #55
    Silver Member Jonianne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReineD View Post
    .......Thank you for your honesty in sharing this, Kaitlin. I've learned a lot from it and I'm sure others have too. I wonder how many CDs feel the same way.
    Reine, your grasp on things CD/TG is amazing!

    As a cd'er I do also feel the same way Kaitlin expressed. I used to think that something was wrong with me for having those feelings, that being turned on either by cloths or by fantasizing myself as a female negatated or discredited the deeper desire of my identifying "with" or "along side" females.

    As humans we are very beautifully complex, especially with our emotions and minds. Since childhood, I have only felt comfortable "letting in" strong female role models in my life to identify with. For me, that is the core reason I am a crossdresser. Yes, after puberty, the rest kicked in and I am happy with that, even though it certainly complicates what was already complicated at best. But, I have settled in and am very happy being an ever changing, complicated me.
    Last edited by Jonianne; 08-29-2009 at 10:20 AM.
    Joni

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  6. #56
    Member Sophie_C's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruth View Post
    I came across this term in Helen Boyd's book a while back, and was intrigued because it was close (though not right on target) to what I feel about my CDing. For those not familiar, it means being turned on by either the idea of having a woman's body or by the idea of being a woman.
    I don't see it discussed on this forum and I was wondering why. Was it done to death years ago or is it still too new to be in common circulation?
    It's not an explanation for CDing, but it's an idea of what our motivation might be. And it's distinct from the fetish CDer, who is basically turned on by the clothes themselves.
    I really hate the term, since it's really quite simple. It essentially is making the word "pervert" (in a derogatory sense) academic. Additionally, it's denying the concept of gender identity altogether, tying it into sexuality and using it as a way to deny transition for transgender girls. Read up on the writer of it, that person has a personal agenda, has been panned across the board by the trans community as well as peer reviews and has caused probably more damage than any one person to all trans people in the world.

    Note: I have no problem applying such a term to crossdressers, since they are NOT transgender, but it's never done that way. It's done the opposite.

  7. #57
    Breakin' social taboos TGMarla's Avatar
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    I have no problem applying such a term to crossdressers, since they are NOT transgender.
    That is a blanket statement that I disagree with. Whereas some crossdressers may not be truly transgendered, others truly are.

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  8. #58
    Gold Member Kaitlyn Michele's Avatar
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    i agree marla..and thats why i think we should not use a term that could have real life negative implications for folks that want to have surgery or live their lives in their proper gender..

    its interesting that alot of girls are correctly saying that they want to define themselves...this makes alot of sense...unfortunately what's missing is that there are people out there trying to define us and they don't share our agenda, and the term autogynephilia helps them and hurts us..

    the doctors and lawyers WILL define you whether you like it or not..

  9. #59
    Breakin' social taboos TGMarla's Avatar
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    the doctors and lawyers WILL define you whether you like it or not.
    Hmmm.....so, it seems, will everybody else.

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  10. #60
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    I think the biggest problem with the supporters of the autogynephilia theory is the same with every other psychological theorist; they all think their own idea is the only correct one out there, and that it applies to everyone. You find it with Freud, Erikson, Jung, Piaget, every single one of them. And when someone comes up with an exception to their 'rule', they come up with increasingly bizarre explanation of how it 'really still fits' their theory. Lets face it; we are a very complex organism, and we are learning new things about ourselves all the time. Yes, autogynephilia explains some crossdressers. But it's completely wrong with others. And the search for a 'unified' theory goes on........

  11. #61
    Silver Member Jonianne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sometimes_miss View Post
    ........And the search for a 'unified' theory goes on........
    Nicely put!
    Joni

    "Yes, to dance beneath the diamond sky with one hand waving free" Bob Dylan

  12. #62
    Full-Time Duality NathalieX66's Avatar
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    If Blanchards "theory" is so disputable and outmoded, then what has replaced it? Theories are not facts, that's why they're called theories.

    I believe there is a definite distinction between feminine expression and the term listed by DSM-IV & V as "transvestic fetishism". ...where that diverges, or whether they're even related, I know not. Anybody want to quote me on this thread, this is the paragraph I wish to be quoted on.

    As for the term "autogynephilia" ....it seems to imply 'sex with one's self as seeing one's self a woman'. Is sex not involved, but just the state of femaleness?
    Last edited by NathalieX66; 08-29-2009 at 09:40 PM.

  13. #63
    Member Sophie_C's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TGMarla View Post
    That is a blanket statement that I disagree with. Whereas some crossdressers may not be truly transgendered, others truly are.
    Then they simply haven't realized what they are yet. It still doesn't make someone who gets pleasure from clothing in a fetishistic sense entirely different from one who is inherently a different gender between their mind and body.

    Mind you, do NOT forget that when you put your argument that "there is no difference" that is the core of the argument against being TG as a medical condition which is why treatment is NOT covered by insurance (since it's just a 'perversion' and only for pleasure, not something that needs to be helped with), as well as them being excluded from GLB rights (like the ENDA bill).

    So, I hope you understand that any argument of the two being 'the same' angers me, since it undermines ALL trans rights in America, only for selfish reason, so that people who have not figured themselves out yet can take down the ship with themselves, even before it begins sailing.

  14. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katie B View Post
    The word auto.gyno.philiac means liking. yourself. as a woman. So far so simplistic. Autogynophilia is an interesting word and it describes a real phenomenon, at least in this house.

    But I seriously doubt if it's much more than that. It certainly doesn't advance us very far in understanding crossdressing.
    It is a little more than that. Blanchard defines AGP as being paraphilic, which describes "sexual arousal to objects or situations that are not part of normative stimulation and that can cause distress or serious problems for the paraphiliac or persons associated with him or her" (Paraphilia). An AGP would not be able to have sex with a partner without engaging somehow in the paraphilia. So the partner in this situation is an accessory rather than the (edit: object subect) of desire. This creates an empty sexual experience for the partner.



    Quote Originally Posted by Pink Person View Post
    Are women who have breast implants or want them, and are sexually excited about having or wanting them, suffering from autogynephilia?
    I agree with most of your points, but not this one. Women do not get sexually aroused over having breast implants or undergoing any other physical "improvement". They get excited about the sexual reaction they think these improvements will cause in a male.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaitlyn Michele View Post
    The term autogynephilia was created AS a perjorative term...it does not at all describe the reality that I and others have personally experienced..
    The term describes a condition and it is not meant to be perjorative any more than other psychological terms. Blanchard theorized that non-homosexual TSs were all AGPs but this is not fact. You and others are proof of this since you are not AGP. And I venture to guess future studies will disprove Blanchard's theory. But it doesn't mean the condition doesn't exist. There are far too many people who say that it describes them to dismiss the term entirely. See "this thread".

    Quote Originally Posted by sometimes_miss View Post
    And the search for a 'unified' theory goes on........
    There will never be a unified theory since there are far too many differences among the members of the TG community. People will need to become comfortable with the idea that certain conditions apply to some people, but not all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Katie B View Post
    I think it would be better for the human race if the word "fetish" was restricted to its original psychiatric meaning: object that is essential to or replaces sex. Having a fetishism is an illness that disables people from "normal" sex.
    You describe a paraphilia. Yes, a sexual fetish is also an arousal brought on by an object or a situation, but it is a disorder only if it is debilitating. It can also be an enhancement to a sex life if it is mutually enjoyed between partners. It is when the fetish replaces or becomes more enjoyable than the sexual relationship with a partner that it is a paraphilia.
    Last edited by ReineD; 08-31-2009 at 08:24 AM.
    Reine

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    You Have Hilarious Nonsexual Breasts

    Dear Reine,

    I’m not sure what your objection is. Is it that the excitement that women feel about their artificial breasts is not sexual or that it does not constitute autogynephilia? I believe I already said it doesn’t constitute autogynephilia. I believe I already said it is the excitement that a person feels as the subject of sexual activity. If you are asserting that their excitement isn’t sexual that is very high minded of you. It made me laugh.

    Pink

  16. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pink Person View Post
    Is it that the excitement that women feel about their artificial breasts is not sexual or that it does not constitute autogynephilia?
    Both, but I didn't frame my response very well. I took it you were likening GGs with breast implants to the TGs who say they are AGP. The former as you pointed out is not true, but the latter is since it is the TGs themselves who speak about their own erotic responses and no one else is in a position to disagree with them. If the act of masturbation, no matter the source of the fantasy, is the preferred form of sexual release and consequently sex with a GG partner becomes rare or dutiful because it cannot compare, then it does fulfill the definition of a paraphilia.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pink Person View Post
    If you are asserting that their excitement isn’t sexual that is very high minded of you. It made me laugh.
    I'm sorry you are taking it this way. But believe me, the excitement is not sexual. The motive for implants may be to attract a male sexually, but it is more about a woman wanting to feel better about herself. A GG looking at her new breasts in the mirror is not sexually excited at all. Ever. Just like a guy who looks at his flaccid penis.
    Reine

  17. #67
    Senior Member Melissa A.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaitlyn Michele View Post
    The term autogynephilia was created AS a perjorative term...it does not at all describe the reality that I and others have personally experienced..transsexuals care DEEPLY about the word because most of us view it as quackery and folks like Dr Blanchard are part of the group that is working to define us in the next DSM...it matters..how it is defined medically has all kinds of reprecussions for those of us that seek treatment or surgery..doctors can hurt us...go look up Dr John Money...

    so i would respectfully ask that we simply not use that term..what term should we use?? who cares...just not a term coined by a self serving man using incredibly flawed research...
    This is why I said these are dangerous people. And why you open up alot of anger even when casually talking about them and and their "theories". It's so frustrating. I won't be at DSM V and they wouldn't listen to me if I was there.

    Thank you, Kaitlyn.

    Hugs,

    Melissa

  18. #68
    Weirdest woman ever! docrobbysherry's Avatar
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    A disturbing issue here!

    For ME, anyway!

    Quote Originally Posted by Pink Person View Post
    --- because we all view ourselves as sexual subjects not as sexual objects. It is only other people who objectify us.
    Do people who masturbate get excited because they imagine having sex with themselves? Perhaps Blanchard and a few others do.
    Normally, I'd say you're rite, Pink P. However, when it comes to CDs, things CAN GET very WEIRD!
    Sherry is the object of my sexual fantasies. I don't think of her as "me". I "objectify" her, if u will. I know she doesn't mind, but I DO!


    Quote Originally Posted by Katie B View Post
    I think it would be better for the human race if the word "fetish" was restricted to its original psychiatric meaning: object that is essential to or replaces sex. Having a fetishism is an illness that disables people from "normal" sex.
    For some people crossdressing can be a fetish, but then it has nothing to do with feminine expression. Same effect, different causes.
    Yes, Katie, u r SO RITE! I believe Sherry has become my "fetish". I feel very little of her has to do with fem expression! For years, I have been concerned about "her" affecting my ability to enjoy sex with REAL women. And, after a couple of affairs, that seems to be the case!

    It's NOT so much a case of my, "falling in love with myself", as it is, falling in love with my fem alter ego/creation! Whatever u choose to call Sherry.
    If THAT'S not sick, I'm not sure what is! Blanchard's theory not withstanding!
    Last edited by docrobbysherry; 08-31-2009 at 08:21 PM.
    U can't keep doing the same things over and over and expect to enjoy life to the max. When u try new things, even if they r out of your comfort zone, u may experience new excitement and growth that u never expected.

    Challenge yourself and pursue your passions! When your life clock runs out, you'll have few or NO REGRETS!

  19. #69
    Closet crossdresser Gerard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReineD View Post
    Melissa, please read post #35. The OP's intent was not to discuss the validity of Blanchard's theory, but to get feedback from others who can relate to the condition of autogynephilia as she does.

    I hope others who decide to join in this thread will decide to begin a new thread if they want to discuss Blanchard's theory on the motives for transiton. Let's bring the focus back to the OP's request in this thread.
    I have no clue who this Blanchard or any of the other names are, but I'll try to reply to the OP's question.

    I've been aroused by fantasies of myself as a woman in the past. In general I am attracted to books, movies and comics that deal with the issue of changing into the opposite sex or switching bodies.
    So this seems to resonate with the term autogynephilia (which is just a Greek term for loving your female self and seems a good term as such, as I said I don't know any of the stigma that seems to go with it.

    Do I love a female version of myself though? No. I'm attracted to other women more than any image of myself.

    I also think it's not a transsexual feeling. I don't want to be, don't feel or identify as a woman.

    I've been on a journey, with a lot of help from this forum, in trying to figure myself out. What I'm starting to think is that most of my crossdressing and transgender behaviour and fantasies are related to inhibitions and taboos in our culture preventing me to express my feminine side. So as a release I end up asking myself what it would be if the bounderies were gone and one could move fluidly from the male to the female side.

    I have found that since I've started accepting that I'm a man who wants to be very feminine, I feel more integrated, and clearer, and a lot of these old fantasies have lost their allure. I've also found I've become more confident in dating women.

    As I currently see myself, it seems that more than anything, my crossdressing and fantasies are a result of not really fitting into the constraints on looks and behaviour that society sets for me. I'm happier with long hair, shaved legs and soft flowing clothes in bright colours.

    Next to that I'm fascinated by how men and women can be so similar and so different at the same time, but not as something that arouses me, but because both very masculine men and feminine women are an enigma to me. I do not really identify with either but I feel an urge to try and understand. This coupled with a vivid imagination also leads to strange fantasies, sometimes more disgusting me other times turning me on or leading me in entirely different directions.

    I can't speak for anyone else, but my reply is that I do recognize some of what is being described, but for me it seems mostly to be of a symptom of not having found my identity yet.
    Last edited by Gerard; 08-31-2009 at 12:07 PM.
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  20. #70
    The Anima Corrupt Wen4cd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by docrobbysherry View Post
    Sherry is the object of my sexual fantasies. I don't think of her as "me". I "objectify" her, if u will. I know she doesn't mind, but I DO!
    You know, that may still just be a part of development. Jung would say that Sherry is your anima, but that it is still in the 'Eve' phase of development, recognized as just the first of four distinct levels.

    from wiki
    Eve

    The first is Eve, named for the Genesis account of Adam and Eve. It deals with the emergence of a male's object of desire, yet simultaneously generalizes all females as evil and powerless.
    This would mean that your anima still has the "Helen," "Mary," and finally "Sophia." phases to explore.

    "Helen" may just be one little 'doorway' away. You can sometimes find these doorways by changing her 'look' now and again, and exploring different sides of the picture. (eg: Try a "gothy" Helen look or a pure "Mary" ourfit, or a more "Sophisticated" manner of dress and see how it makes you feel looking at it in the mirror.)

    "This Pride of Apparel will appear the more foolish, if we consider, that those airy mortals, who have no other way of making themselves considerable but by gorgeous apparel, draw after them crowds of imitators, who hate each other while they endeavour after a similitude of manners. They destroy by example, and envy one another’s destruction."
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  21. #71
    GG ReineD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaitlyn Michele View Post
    The term autogynephilia was created AS a perjorative term...it does not at all describe the reality that I and others have personally experienced..transsexuals care DEEPLY about the word because most of us view it as quackery and folks like Dr Blanchard are part of the group that is working to define us in the next DSM...it matters..how it is defined medically has all kinds of reprecussions for those of us that seek treatment or surgery..doctors can hurt us...go look up Dr John Money...
    Blanchard's theory of AGP as a motive for transition cannot be accurate, judging by the sheer number of transsexuals who express outrage over its inclusion in the DSM. The theory has been around sometime now (1989) and I wonder if you, or if anyone else knows if there has been any significant research done to finally disprove it, or if not, why.

    I realize that conducting research was difficult in the past due to members of the TG community being so deeply closeted, and this is perhaps one of the reasons why Blanchard's theory may be flawed, but is this not changing with the proliferation of the internet?

    So where are you, young researchers and why are you being so silent?
    Reine

  22. #72
    Senior Member Ruth's Avatar
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    Thanks for all the thought and energy that has gone into these responses. I did not think my post would create such a storm.
    By the way, I know about Blanchard but did not wish to mention him because I wanted to consider the idea of autogynephilia in isolation, so to speak, without the unpleasant baggage that Blanchard produced with his over-prescriptive categories.
    It's a theory, that's all. We should be able to think about it in a level headed way.
    [SIZE="2"]Always be true to yourself because the people who matter don’t mind, and the people who mind don’t matter.[/SIZE]

  23. #73
    Aspiring Member joandher's Avatar
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    We keep going on about all the different labels that can be stuck on to peoples preference can anybody tell me what normal is??
    We are all different in ways and preferences, and have multiple choices in all aspects of life and the way we dress,and sex
    look back in history ,the Romans wore skirts, the Scotts the kilt, in Africa the caftan etc etc
    so what is normal???

    J-JAY

  24. #74
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    A little late but I thought I'd post my

    The problem I have with Blanchard's theory of Autogynephilia and Transexualism is that it is all about "Sex" like so many have already stated. For me (and so many TSs that I know) my gender issues preceeded puberty by almost 10 years.

    I have always wanted to be female. My earliest memories are of wanting to play with dolls and wear girl's clothes. I remember walking home from school in first and second grade and wishing I had long hair like they did. All during this time I would sneak into my mother's room and play dress-up by myself. So for years pre-puberty I dreamed and prayed that I would wake up the next day and God would haved saved me from my daily nightmare.

    I also remember the day years later when in the middle of my dressing-up I became physically excited and..... I didn't even know what had happened. I was distraught and it began a period of self-loathing and guilt.

    Now I have read on these forums that many people have started dressing when they reached puberty and maybe they can relate to Blanchard's theory. But I can't because the sexual aspect of it ruined what up to that time had been my dream of becoming female.

    So I guess my point is that the theory may have relavance to some but not to all of us. Sex and gender to me are two different issues and I have struggled with both of them.

  25. #75
    Full-Time Duality NathalieX66's Avatar
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    Once you get beyond realizing that there's a the fetish aspect of CD'ing, you realize that there is something real going on.

    For me , my cd'ing started by observing my female cousins enjoying aspects of feminine style, which goes way beyond dressing to attract males....they enjoy it too much. it's them, and who they are. I'm just jealous because of their free-mindedness about it. There always seems to be no boundaries with women . "How come they can wear dresses and get their ears pierced, but I cant?"

    As I stated earlier, "autygynephilia" seems to require sexual gratification. Fine, whatever excites one's self, I say.

    Some guys find it within their identity, and therefore persue that direction. So be it.
    Me, I never went far enough to the point of saying "this is me...and I can't live as a male" but I came to the conclusion that I am both. I like my guy side too much. Sexual gratification is not important.

    As I stated earlier, "autygynephilia" seems to require sexual gratification. Fine, whatever excites one's self, I say.


    Society frowns upon crossdressers because: One, it shows weakness....caving into sissy desires, thus a failure of being a macho man=being a weak-ling,..........and two, caving into what is percieved as kinky desires, which scares the living daylights out of lots of people. It's ok for the media to expose the fact that there were president Bill Clinton's semen stains on Monica Lewinsky's dress, and he walks away from impeachment, but a guy is treated with suspicion and derision if he wears nail polish.

    You look at any non-human mammal, or other wise, and they don't wear clothes ....therefore gender identity is a human created concept. Things happen when one has an extremely intelligent brain, , an an imagination, and with a congnitive sense of one self.

    In the end So much of what people thin is what is percieved, not the truth.
    Last edited by NathalieX66; 08-31-2009 at 10:48 PM.

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The crossdressing community is one that needs to stick together and continue to be there for each other for whatever one needs.
We are always trying to improve the forum to better serve the crossdresser in all of us.

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