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Thread: Autogynephilia, anybody?

  1. #76
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    Your Self-Love Is Not My Self-Love

    (To Reine)
    My research indicates that some women do derive sexual pleasure from their breasts in sexual situations. I will concede that glancing in the mirror generally doesn’t qualify as a sexual event.

    (To Everyone)
    I believe that autogynephilia is an imaginary disorder. It doesn’t exist for anyone, not even the people who confess to having it. If self-love does exist, it is subjective self-love, not objective self-love. It is love of the person we really are or love of our essential nature, not love of an imitation or artificial version of ourselves. TG and TS self-identification and expression do not spring from a desire to be something we are not. If other people would allow TG and TS people to be themselves then the false issue of self-induced sexual isolation would fade away.

  2. #77
    crossdresser jo_ann's Avatar
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    I believe that autogynephilia is an imaginary disorder. It doesn’t exist for anyone, not even the people who confess to having it.
    I disagree with it being an imaginary disorder and that it doesn't exist for anyone (there are also people that don't believe bi-sexuality exists). By it's very definition states:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autogynephilia

    * Transvestic autogynephilia: arousal to the act or fantasy of wearing women's clothing
    * Behavioral autogynephilia: arousal to the act or fantasy of doing something regarded as feminine
    * Physiologic autogynephilia: arousal to fantasies of female-specific body functions
    * Anatomic autogynephilia: arousal to the fantasy of having a woman's body, or parts of one.

    At least 2 if not 3 of those things apply to me and have so even during puberty. When I was 12 it's not like the internet even existed, and even if it did it's not as if I looked that up and said "Hmm, I'm bored.. what condition could I believe I have in my hypocondriac ways? Ahh, autogynephilia! that sounds twisted enough". I had those feelings long before I even knew other people shared those same feelings.

    If self-love does exist, it is subjective self-love, not objective self-love.
    Well of course it's subjective, if it were objective that would mean it was real (I.E. I could physically turn myself into a woman at will). It's a fantasy, an idea, but most sexuality is in the mind.
    Last edited by jo_ann; 08-31-2009 at 11:22 PM.

  3. #78
    Banned Read only battybattybats's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReineD View Post
    I agree with most of your points, but not this one. Women do not get sexually aroused over having breast implants or undergoing any other physical "improvement". They get excited about the sexual reaction they think these improvements will cause in a male.
    I know several GGs (lesbian, bi and straight!) whose wearing a 'strap-on' certainly arouses them!

    This is an interesting take on the subject that attacks it as a defining model of GID severely. http://www.tracieokeefe.com/Autogynephilia.htm

  4. #79
    Female Illusionist! docrobbysherry's Avatar
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    I think u both missed something!

    Pink and Jo Ann, it's perfectly OK to jump rite in on ANY thread!
    However, u both may have missed my earlier post:
    Quote Originally Posted by Pink Person View Post
    I believe that autogynephilia is an imaginary disorder. It doesn’t exist for anyone, not even the people who confess to having it. If self-love does exist, it is subjective self-love, not objective self-love. It is love of the person we really are or love of our essential nature, not love of an imitation or artificial version of ourselves.
    Pink, u can believe in autogynephilia. Or NOT! I don't think that's important.
    But, I believe I'm living proof, that the rest of your argument just isn't valid!
    In my earlier post, I explained my involvement with Sherry, my "alter ego". To me, she IS an object, and NOT any part of myself, that I can relate to! Which results in GUILT for my CDing!
    If she isn't an, "--imitation or artificial version of myself", I don't know what/who is!

    Quote Originally Posted by jo_ann View Post
    Well of course it's subjective, if it were objective that would mean it was real (I.E. I could physically turn myself into a woman at will). It's a fantasy, an idea, but most sexuality is in the mind.
    While I agree with MOST of your post, Jo Ann, I can't with this last paragraph.
    The mind is CERTAINLY the body part that is MOST important for arousal.

    However, with the latest scientific advances, (or fetish devices, pick the term U prefer), I CAN physically change into a female!
    Or, at least enuff to satisfy MY FANTASIES! ( I think my pics speak to my gender change!)

    I may be the ONLY CD here that "objectifies" themselves. But, how many do u and Pink need, to prove it's possible?
    Last edited by docrobbysherry; 09-01-2009 at 12:14 PM.
    U can't keep doing the same things over and over and expect to enjoy life to the max. When u try new things, even if they r out of your comfort zone, u may experience new excitement and growth that u never expected.

    Challenge yourself and pursue your passions! When your life clock runs out, you'll have few or NO REGRETS!

  5. #80
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    You Don't Have A Sick Boner

    My definition of subjective self-love means love of yourself as the inner subject of your being or love of your internal essential self. Objective self-love means love of yourself as an object of thought or love of an artificial version of yourself that exists outside of your true self. If you were born male but your true self is TG or TS then you aren’t autogynephilic no matter what you do for sexual gratification.

  6. #81
    AKA Lexi sometimes_miss's Avatar
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    Hey, Reine, we're crossing each other's paths a lot recently.
    You wrote:
    There will never be a unified theory since there are far too many differences among the members of the TG community. People will need to become comfortable with the idea that certain conditions apply to some people, but not all.
    Actually, there will eventually be one. Not that everyone will want to accept it, there will always be the few that still think the world is flat, too.
    But it won't be what people think. Perhaps something along these lines, but bear with me, I've never tried to write this down before:
    Crossdressing is: 1. A manifestation of a person's sexual and or social role self identification and/or desire to assume the opposite physical sex person's identity or self image so that it fits who they believe themselves to be. 2. Some people get sexually aroused by wearing the attire of the opposite sex, whether to feel as if they are that sex, to feel more intimately connected to the person who's clothes they are wearing (to become 'one' with the other person, for example), or perhaps to enhance the feeling of being free to enjoy the customary role of the opposite sex in any given situation.

    Confusing enough? I think so. It needs more clarification, and there's always more possibilities, but right now, the definitions I've seen are way to limiting.
    Some causes of crossdressing you've probably never even considered: My TG biography at:http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/...=1#post1490560
    There's an addendum at post # 82 on that thread, too. It's about a ten minute read.
    Why don't we understand our desire to dress, behave and feel like a girl? Because from childhood, boys are told that the worst possible thing we can be, is a sissy. This feeling is so ingrained into our psyche, that we will suppress any thoughts that connect us to being or wanting to be feminine, even to the point of creating separate personalities to assign those female feelings into.

  7. #82
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    [QUOTE=jo_ann;1853453]I disagree with it being an imaginary disorder and that it doesn't exist for anyone (there are also people that don't believe bi-sexuality exists). By it's very definition states:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autogynephilia

    * Transvestic autogynephilia: arousal to the act or fantasy of wearing women's clothing
    * Behavioral autogynephilia: arousal to the act or fantasy of doing something regarded as feminine
    * Physiologic autogynephilia: arousal to fantasies of female-specific body functions
    * Anatomic autogynephilia: arousal to the fantasy of having a woman's body, or parts of one.

    The first three of these seem to apply to most CDs and certainly to me. The first one speaks for itself. The second involves putting on makeup, walking in high heels, sitting in a demure way in a short skirt etc. And the third, for me is to achieve fullfillment in a female way without any of the usual male manifestations. The fourth one is a step too far for me, but not for some people.
    Lucy

  8. #83
    The Anima Corrupt Wen4cd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by docrobbysherry View Post
    !
    In my earlier post, I explained my involvement with Sherry, my "alter ego". To me, she IS an object, and NOT any part of myself, that I can relate to! To my unfortunate REGRET!
    If she isn't an, "--imitation or artificial version of myself", I don't know what/who is!
    Not to jack the thread, but just to add to my earlier reply...

    You know, you might just be having trouble relating to that part of yourself because of the mask.

    It might expedite matters for you to take it off and look at your self once in a while, in makeup or something. (That is, if you do really have an unfortunate regret about it. I don't see a reason to be ashamed if you're completely content that way either.)

    Eye contact and facial expression can be powerful things. I certainly understand the distraction your own 'familiar face' can be to the losing of the ego into the image. It's one reason why I do a lot of makeup.

    But the other reason is that it enhances the visibility of facial expression. It's like an amplifier for the emotive signals displayed by the face. (The way I make up, it's like an amp set to 11, lol)

    You're naturally going to have trouble seeing yourself in her if you can't see either of your faces.
    And so we go, on with our lives...
    We know the Truth, but prefer Lies.
    Lies are simple, simple is Bliss.
    Why go against tradition, when we can admit defeat,
    Live in Decline, be the victim of our own design?

  9. #84
    honeygirl Honeygirl's Avatar
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    Thank you

    I would just like to say thank you for this thread. It has been helpful, educational and a refreshing read.

    Honey,

  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by battybattybats View Post
    This is an interesting take on the subject that attacks it as a defining model of GID severely. http://www.tracieokeefe.com/Autogynephilia.htm
    I've seen this before and this is where I first began thinking of AGP as also being applicable to non gender-dysphorics. It does fit in with the notion of AGP as a paraphilia, in that it is independent of gender identification, like any other paraphilia.

    In most of the cases cited by O'keefe, the people seem to have had unsatisfactory sex lives with their primary partners, which caused them either to end their relationships or seek for satisfaction elsewhere while staying in the relationship. Whether this was caused because they were paraphilic or not was not addressed. An otherwise healthy kink or fetish becomes a paraphilia when it "causes distress or serious problems for the paraphiliac or persons associated with him or her." I take it this means an inability to have satisfactory sex with a partner without the preferred object or situation. In other words, the emotional connection with the primary partner does not culminate in a sexual experience that satisfies, making it necessary to explore different situations or partners.

    It is a complex issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by sometimes_miss View Post
    Actually, there will eventually be one. Not that everyone will want to accept it, there will always be the few that still think the world is flat, too. [...] Crossdressing is: [...] 2. Some people get sexually aroused by
    You are only addressing CDing, which is a subset of the TG community. And even within you definition, you use the word "some" which proves there can never be a unified theory.
    Last edited by ReineD; 09-01-2009 at 11:17 AM.
    Reine

  11. #86
    The Anima Corrupt Wen4cd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katie B View Post
    Reine, you quote something (DSM IV ?) as saying that an otherwise healthy kink or fetish becomes a paraphilia when it "causes distress or serious problems for the paraphiliac or persons associated with him or her". (My underline.)

    Is this really chapter and verse, or have I missed something? Does this mean that if I spend so much time on the internet that my wife gets cross, then I'm suffering from a paraphilia? Does this mean that my family's reactions are the crucial factor in deciding how much of my crossdressing is enough? Does this mean that a report from the hot gospeller next door that he's seen me in black latex is enough for me to be classed as paraphiliac?

    Tell me it isn't true! I want to have more faith in the medical profession than that.
    I know this wasn't addressed to me, but I just happened to have the book within reach.

    The DSM-IV usually uses this type of language around crossdress-y issues:

    Criteria (both or all must be met to diagnose)

    A. (The 'whatever' behavior or urges themselves, getting worked up thinking about crossdressing, or whatever.)

    B. The fantasies, sexual urges, or behaviors cause clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning.

    This phrasing is used frequently throughout different 'harmless to others' categories, and basically says 'if the subject doesn't see a problem with it, or doesn't make a problem out of it, that means there is no problem with it."
    Last edited by Wen4cd; 09-01-2009 at 02:52 PM.
    And so we go, on with our lives...
    We know the Truth, but prefer Lies.
    Lies are simple, simple is Bliss.
    Why go against tradition, when we can admit defeat,
    Live in Decline, be the victim of our own design?

  12. #87
    Resident Polymath MarinaTwelve200's Avatar
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    I have talked about AG in several of my posts. I use the definition as it being a desire to be a woman based on a very strong hetrosexual attraction to one's "female self" as opposed to the conventional Transsexual desire to be a woman because one 'feels :like a woman(ie. a woman in a man's body)

    Both types are known to get SRS and the AG term is used for a SRS recipient as ANOTHER TYPE of TS.

    AG is one of SEVERAL reasons for CDing as there is no single cause, CDing is but a manefestation or 'symptom" of several different conditions.

    The controversy with AG arises from several definitions floating around--Thats why I STRESS to ALWAYS explain the definition of terms one is using in one's writings so the reader and the author are 'on the same page', so to speak. Its really a good term to describe an obsession wits one's female self to various degrees, even to the point of persuing SRS. Yes it is ONE motivation for a guy to crossdress---but not THE only one of course.

    I cannot imaginge why some would be "offended" by the term. An honest scientific persuit of the truth needs terminology to work with concepts and ideas.--it is what it is and we cannot let personal feelings interfere with our studies.

  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katie B View Post
    Tell me it isn't true! I want to have more faith in the medical profession than that.
    I was not quoting the DSM. I gave a definition for a paraphilia. Obviously if the paraphiliac lives alone, no one else is affected. As Wen pointed out, the DSM considers a condition diagnosable only if the behavior causes signigicant distress in the individual or it is disruptive to his or her everyday functioning.

    Please understand I am not talking about partners not approving of the amount of time spent on the computer (although this as with many other things can become a compulsion to the extent that it can damage a relationship), or TGs or anyone else occasionally pleasing themselves without their partners, or couples engaging in any type of kink.

    But if a married TG can no longer have a sexually satisfying intimate life with a partner because the TG becomes AGP, the partner is affected as well. This would cause stress in the relationship and it might even cause the marriage to end. It seems to me this would be a disruption to everyday functioning .. the inability to have a healthy sexual relationship with a partner.
    Reine

  14. #89
    Banned Read only battybattybats's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marina Twelve View Post
    I cannot imaginge why some would be "offended" by the term. An honest scientific persuit of the truth needs terminology to work with concepts and ideas.--it is what it is and we cannot let personal feelings interfere with our studies.
    Because the Hypothesis of Autogynephilia states that TSs are all either 'homosexual transsexuals' or 'autogynephillic transsexuals'. It's not just the term but the model of explaining the transsexual phenomenon attached to the term that is offensive to all the women-attracted TSs (Blanchard and his cronies seem to think they don't exist) to FtMs (somehow left out of these peoples work).

    The scientific evidence that some and maybe all TG people have differing neurology that leads to the partial-to-total self identification, brain body map and need to express themselves as the opposite sex to some degree is completely dismissed in favour of a blanket - 'everyone either is gay and wont face it or just wants to do themselves' Hypothesis.

    The disregard of this evidence and denial of the experiences of those who dont fit into it is offensive.

    Quote Originally Posted by ReineD View Post
    I was not quoting the DSM. I gave a definition for a paraphilia. Obviously if the paraphiliac lives alone, no one else is affected. As Wen pointed out, the DSM considers a condition diagnosable only if the behavior causes signigicant distress in the individual or it is disruptive to his or her everyday functioning.

    Please understand I am not talking about partners not approving of the amount of time spent on the computer (although this as with many other things can become a compulsion to the extent that it can damage a relationship), or TGs or anyone else occasionally pleasing themselves without their partners, or couples engaging in any type of kink.

    But if a married TG can no longer have a sexually satisfying intimate life with a partner because the TG becomes AGP, the partner is affected as well. This would cause stress in the relationship and it might even cause the marriage to end. It seems to me this would be a disruption to everyday functioning .. the inability to have a healthy sexual relationship with a partner.
    And where a married man, married to a woman, was Gay?

    See the definitions have still not taken into account the argument that was used to remove being Gay from the paraphillia list!
    That argument was that the disruption to life quality, the depression and suicidal ideation co-morbidities and failure to maintain a proper normal functional straight relationship were due to societies discrimination against Gays and the last the point that they were gay and so should be in a functional gay relationship.

    The definition is broken!

    If the sex-life of the married TG is failing it may be because of the partners issues with TG and not the fact the TG is TG.

    It also could be because of the TGs issues with being TG because of the discrimination they have internalised and so again being TG is not the issue but merely an arbitrary subject within the issue.

    It's about time that Homophobia and Transphobia got added to the DSM. It's about time that the nature of whether the disruption to everyday functioning is intrinsic to the condition or caused by external bias and bigotry was counted for everything the way it is with being gay!

    Some consistency and cogency shouldn't be much to ask for.

  15. #90
    GG ReineD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by battybattybats View Post
    The disregard of this evidence and denial of the experiences of those who dont fit into it is offensive.
    Well said, Batty.


    Quote Originally Posted by battybattybats View Post
    And where a married man, married to a woman, was Gay?

    If the sex-life of the married TG is failing it may be because of the partners issues with TG and not the fact the TG is TG.
    Yes, these reasons could also be true for a failing sex life. But the OP was wondering if others, like her possibly, also relate to being AGP. I added another question to the mix asking how the wives fit into all of this, since I've also spoken to supportive GGs who report failing sex lives due to their husbands preferring to pleasure themselves than being with their wives. There was never any thought these husbands might be gay. I posted a link in one of my posts above to a thread where many TGs reported having more intense and pleasurable sexual experiences by themselves than with their partners.

    It was my hope to invite those who relate to this situation to post their thoughts, and this would also answer the OPs question.

    Quote Originally Posted by battybattybats View Post
    It's about time that the nature of whether the disruption to everyday functioning is intrinsic to the condition or caused by external bias and bigotry was counted for everything the way it is with being gay!
    I also thought of this. If there is a carry-over of shame due to experiencing a lifetime of external bias and this somehow affects a husband's sexual relation with his/her partner, then a thread focusing on this, and not Blanchard, would be helpful in beginning a dialogue which would lead hopefully to some insight and resolution.
    Reine

  16. #91
    crossdresser jo_ann's Avatar
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    Marina Twelve and batty batty bats both well said.. I don't think this term can be taken as black and white, nor will it ever have good vibes when it's brought up. Because of what it's based on "a quack psychologist trying to explain away transgenderism", it will never be well accepted.

    I also don't think any one term can describe a person much less a group of people, this is a varied and complicated issue that has a long way before it can be defined because it's so hard to know what each person is feeling, sometimes the individual cannot even express themselves.

    However I don't want this term to ever die simply because some of the attributes describe some people quite well. I almost wish there was a movement to draw some of these terms out, and create a new definition.

  17. #92
    Banned Read only battybattybats's Avatar
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    Something that needs considering...

    Repressed things often emerge first or are least able to be purged from sex!

    Being Gay is not just about sex. Its about love, romance, long-term partnerships and science shows its even about the whole function of the emotional centres of the brain!

    But what does a struggling Gay or Bi man do? Fantasise about it sexually, perhaps look at Gay porn, masturbate to the fantasy, maybe start to cruise the local beats.... oh and are three times more likely to attempt suicide, more likely to suffer depression etc.

    Till they gain more self acceptance. Then the rest emerges, the suicidal ideation drops away, the depression becomes lees likely etc.

    And what is found with CDs?

    As they struggle its more likely they see it as just a sex thing. TGs are listed at a 4+ times higher than average attempted suicide rate, higher depression etc.

    And as self-acceptance increases non-sexual dressing becomes more common and the other aspects emerge more and the negatives go down etc.

    So is it the CDing comes purely from a sexual urge or is it that the sex is the chink in the armour that the pre-existing TG aspects get through?

    In the vast majority i'm certain its the latter.

  18. #93
    GG ReineD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jo_ann View Post
    However I don't want this term to ever die simply because some of the attributes describe some people quite well. I almost wish there was a movement to draw some of these terms out, and create a new definition.
    The TG community here (CD, TS, and everyone else around and in-between) could begin by letting go of Blanchard's hypothesis and talking about if and how AGP relates to them, keeping in mind there will be varying degrees.

    Quote Originally Posted by battybattybats View Post
    And as self-acceptance increases non-sexual dressing becomes more common and the other aspects emerge more and the negatives go down etc.

    So is it the CDing comes purely from a sexual urge or is it that the sex is the chink in the armour that the pre-existing TG aspects get through?

    In the vast majority i'm certain its the latter.
    It would be interesting to invite other members of CD.com to share their thoughts and personal experiences, (as the OP did. Sorry if I sound like a broken record.)

    But maybe people would feel freer discussing this in the GM forum?
    Reine

  19. #94
    Closet crossdresser Gerard's Avatar
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    I think scientists have a tendency to make all encompassing theories and categories. It seems this Blanchard person has fallen into that trap of trying to explain too much with too little.
    WARNING: I'm a hopeless forum troll. I sometimes get carried away in arguments. I'm not from the USA and not a native speaker, which does mean I sometimes simply misunderstand.

    Mainly here to find out who I am and learn. Having a place to let of steam to understanding people in relative anonymity is great!
    ---
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  20. #95
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    Crazy People Say No To Me

    I don’t know anyone who is opposed to having a sexual partner. I know some people who are opposed to having sex with me but I don’t know the name of the mental illness that afflicts them.

  21. #96
    Hopeless Romantic RobynP's Avatar
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    This thread has been very enlightening! There are certainly thousands of different reasons why we are CD, TG, TS or some blend. One thing that many of us have in common is that we are searching to find out why we are the way we are. Some of us can say, "I am what I am," and do not need to know why. As different theories are proposed, we look at them and look at ourselves and wonder if we have found the key that unlocks the mystery inside of us. I know I do this all the time...

    One very important part of this discussion about AG often overlooked (and maybe this should be a new topic) is that some CDs determine that they are really TS and transition. However, there are people who transition, realize they've made a mistake, and transition back.

    Is there a difference, a real, fundamental difference between CD and TS? Or is everything kind of blurred together under the TG umbrella? (This is a very important question for most wives...) Is it possible to transition for the wrong reason? Or is any reason acceptable for transition? Many in our community think there should be no barriers to transition especially coming from the medical community (such as removing TV/CD/GID from DSM). The concept of AG has acted like a lightening rod forcing us to look into ourselves. Individually, we may or may not agree that AG "fits me" or is even acceptable for anyone. However, we do owe it to ourselves and our spouses to examine our motivations for our behavior(s).

    Robyn P.

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    Your Sister Doesn’t Need A Keeper

    It is perfectly possible for anyone to do anything for any reason. I believe the definition of autogynephilia is used to claim that everyone who transitions does it for the wrong reason because everyone who transitions is defined as mentally ill and motivated by their mental illness. I am going to invent a disorder I call autogynephiliaphilia. It defines the mental illness of people who embrace the idea of autogynephilia because they love to hate TG and TS people. I think this disorder is far more likely to exist than the one for which it is named.

    It's possible for TS people to regret their transitions for good reasons. It is also perfectly possible for people who regret their transitions to regret them for the wrong reasons, but let’s not try to overanalyze other people’s thoughts and behavior. If anyone believes they have made a bad decision then they must cope with the consequences like we all do. There is no moral imperative to stop TG people from making bad decisions because there is no moral imperative to stop any normal person from making bad decisions.
    Last edited by Pink Person; 09-03-2009 at 05:11 AM.

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