Male Mindset vs Female Desires

[Shelby]

(warning, long post)

If you haven't read my thread in the Clothing section called "Hello, Bombshell," I finally went to VS to buy a bra without any lame excuse like "I'm in a show" or "it is for my gf who happens to be the same size as me." I called ahead first, went it just as they opened and tried on bras until I found the one I liked. Part of my reason for dressing is that I find it psychologically stimulating. Questions like how will I be treated differently as a women rather then as a man and what will I feel like. Now obviously I'll never know the joys of being pregnent or dealing with a monthly issue like gg's (not saying that is a joy, even for guys to deal with) but my challenge is to blend in with the female population as best as I can and live like one for only awhile.

But I had an interesting mindset yesterday as I stood in guy mode in a VS fitting room with numerous bras laid out before me. I am a guy, I enjoy being a guy. I am a Ballcap, Dodge Ram driving, powertool loving, Action movie buff guy who loves a good fart joke and enjoys admiring the beauty of a woman. Yet I enjoy dressing as one and I need a new bra. A few times the SA would ask how I was doing in the room without ever entering. I would quickly reply just fine or great. I felt like I was being sort of matter of fact and even sensed annoyance in my tone. I was nervous and would have been more so had she wanted to enter to help. While we were back on the salesfloor choosing a color that I liked I noticed that she was treating me like any other woman buying a bra. She was being totally professional, polite and helpful. I could imagine her having this same conversation with women as well, but I am a guy - shouldn't I be treated like one? That was what my brain was saying to me. My brain kept telling me that it is abnormal for her to be comfortable and talking to me like she would to another woman. Perhaps my brain wouldn't have been saying those things had I dressed enfemme.

Case in point, I went out 3 times last winter to Target dressed enfemme to see if I could blend in and pass. I roamed the women's clothing section and never felt like I was violating lady land. No one paid attention to me and I was comfortable. Yet when I shopped there as a guy, I would dash into the racks, avoid nearby contact and grab and go before anyone realized that there was a man in the dept. So why did my brain have the desire to want to be treated by this SA as a guy while buying a bra? I have been dressing for many years now but the biggest difference is that until now I have never told anyone that I crossdress except for everyone on this site. Of course annonimity has its privilages so even though you know about Shelby, none of you know the real me. Even though this SA doesn't know me or Shelby, she is the first person to know that I dress.

Another example of how people are treated in a business is Best Buy. They did a study of female shoppers at BB and discovered that many do not feel comfortable going into what has been traditionally a male dominated store reaking of testosterone, big TVs blaring with loud explosions and tons of tech gadgets. It was cited that even though a male SA was eager to assist a female shopper, he would sometimes get overly excited about the technical abilities of a PC or phone and act like he was talking with another dude about some totally friggin awesome new video game with killer graphics. So BB made an effort to get more tech savvy female SAs on the floor with a calmer demeanour about the gadgets they sell. The company also moved some of it TVs away from the front door so as to not bombard a woman with the noise. (I am not saying that women could not handle shopping at BB, it was an article in the local paper stating the differences in how men and women shop and how one company delt with it). To be honest, I prefer buying from a gg tech girl because she is calmer and doesn't get to excited about the inner working jargon which I don't speak.

VS sort of did the same thing years earlier with the remodel of all there stores but not sure if this was done for men in mind. Remember they used to have more white fancy like wood work and a much softer tone in the store. Then they changed to this ultra modern black and white look. Was this done to make men less apprehensive about standing in a very feminine looking store? Did they try to tone down the estrogen to make men feel more comfortable?

Perhaps some of our beloved GG's can help provide some female insight on this. Have you ever shopped at a Male-dominant business and been treated like one of the guys and how did it make you feel? I enjoyed being spoken to at VS as if I were just another woman, but it was something that my brain was sensing that brought this topic up. I hope that you all understand where I'm going with this and please offer up some of your thoughts and experiences. Please also check out my thread "Hello, Bombshell" about my visit to VS. I felt like I made a big step yesterday and will continue to make other steps into the female world.

Shelby

[Stephenie S]

OMG Shelby, we recently had a question about overthinking, but you take the first prize here.

Relax already, will you? The SA at VS wasn't treating as anything other than just another customer. Victoria's Secret, along with several other establishments, has a corporate policy of TG and CD acceptance. You felt like you were just another customer? Well, guess what, you were.

Many guys never realize this, but shopping is NOT an exclusively female secret. ANYBODY can shop ANYWHERE. Oh WOW! What a concept! Anybody? Yup, anybody. Take your money into a store and nobody will care who or what you are. It's what stores want. Money. That's why they are there. They WANT your money. Uhhuh sweetie, yours. Your money. It's just as good as mine.

Wear what ever you want. Dress up like a clown. Wear your snorkel and fins. Wear a cute little outfit you picked out that morning. It won't matter. If you bring money, they want you. If you ever want a best friend in a hurry, start piling up clothes by the cash register.

Lovies,
Stephenie

[AKASadieGG]

Just a remark about Best Buy - I can't go in there, it totally freaks me out with all the noise and static. I get confused about what I went in for and have to leave. I thought I was the only one!

[Loveday]

Now I know why I never liked Best Buy. I avoid the place.

[Sara Jessica]

Bottom line, you were treated in a professional manner at VS, and that's a good thing.

But you said it yourself, you invaded ladyland. Just my opinion and I may be in the minority in saying this but I think trying on something like a bra at VS in guy mode is an intrusion into sacred territory and as such, it creates a potential problem with other customers.

Now please don't get me wrong, I totally appreciate how you were sensitive to shop at a less-busy time. It may be just me but I wouldn't hit the fitting room at a store like VS in guy mode. At least in girl mode the readers know what they're getting, someone who is presenting as a woman. In guy mode, the perceptions can vary wildly...not that negative perceptions can't happen in girl mode but I think the odds are a bit lower.

Even in girl mode, using the fitting room at a VS is still a challenge. One still must ascertain how they are being perceived, the SA's level of acceptance, the customer's reactions, etc. A lingere store is not the place to be cavalier about "it's my right to be here too". Again, IMHO.

[Stephenie S]

Dear Sara,

you invaded ladyland. Just my opinion and I may be in the minority in saying this but I think trying on something like a bra at VS in guy mode is an intrusion into sacred territory

Not true, sweetie. There's no such thing as "sacred territory" when you are spending money in a store. You can shop in VS dressed anyway you want. They make sure of it.

There are several other stores that make a point of being CD/TG accepting. DressBarn and FashionBug spring to mind. I am sure there are others.

But in general being afraid of shopping dressed ANY way you want is a fabrication of your own mind. As I said in my previous post, stores WANT you to shop and care not what you wear. Shop in male clothes if you want. Shop in female clothes if you want. It matters not a whit. They don't care. Honest, dear. YOU are the one who is getting upset, not them.

When you enter a store and the SA asks if she can help you, say "Yes", and then let her do it. You may learn something.

Lovies,
Stephenie

And I agree. Best Buy is a bit much. I have trouble just getting help there.

[sherri52]

You were treated like a customer. Regardless of what store your in You should be treated in this manner. Some companies train thier employees to do just that and this makes thier stores a more comfortable place to shop and thier customers come back.

[PantyhoseNPumps]

Ohhh how I miss shopping!!!

[Shelby]

I should have also mentioned that I enjoyed myself and was actually more calm about walking into the store then I was making the phone call. The SA was totally cool with my shopping there and gave me a promotiomal secret gift card to be used in the month of Dec as well as a card that lists my bra size, her name and voicemail number to contact her for assistance. So I felt welcomed and appreciated. Out of respect to the few ladies that did shop that, I kept my distance so as to not make them uncomfortable while they shopped.

As to over thinking, I don't think or feel like I am over thinking about it. I've been more nervous about how to ask a girl out on a date, this was more less something to ponder afterwards.

I enjoy acting on stage and it is always interesting to me how I canbe in character yet fully aware of who I am. Onstage, I don't cease being me, but take on the added personality of another character. So I am thinking of my next line, next movement, next mannerism yet I have to perform as a character that would do all of this naturally. The hardest part about acting is in the early stages of rehearsals. We don't know our characters fully or have the movements, line or mannerisms down yet so it can be awkward feeling.

Sara Jessica is sort of right about shopping enfemme. Is I have experienced shopping is easier enfemme but I am not ready to make contact with an SA while dressed but I would love too. I have read SJ's threads and admire your ability to go out and you look so natural - I envy you and hope that I can get to that point someday. Steph is also right about shopping as a guy. As I said, this was just that I was thinking and reflecting on.

Oh and a new Ulta store just opened near me, and I bought some Dermablend Concealer. An SA helped me choose the right shade. I didn't say for what I needed it for, just that I need it. No sense in giving more info then what she needed. I ended up buying some hair products from her as and got some application advice too.

I look forward to reading what others have to say.

[Sara Jessica]

Dear Sara,

you invaded ladyland. Just my opinion and I may be in the minority in saying this but I think trying on something like a bra at VS in guy mode is an intrusion into sacred territory

Not true, sweetie. There's no such thing as "sacred territory" when you are spending money in a store. You can shop in VS dressed anyway you want. They make sure of it.

There are several other stores that make a point of being CD/TG accepting. DressBarn and FashionBug spring to mind. I am sure there are others.

But in general being afraid of shopping dressed ANY way you want is a fabrication of your own mind. As I said in my previous post, stores WANT you to shop and care not what you wear. Shop in male clothes if you want. Shop in female clothes if you want. It matters not a whit. They don't care. Honest, dear. YOU are the one who is getting upset, not them.

When you enter a store and the SA asks if she can help you, say "Yes", and then let her do it. You may learn something.

Please read my post carefully, I'm saying nothing about whether or not this whole thing matters to a VS associate. Of course if they want the sale they will cater to anyone who walks through their doors.

I'm talking about sacred territory when it comes to trying things on at VS (in keeping with the example we're talking about) and the perceptions of the customers. Take a moment and step outside of the "we have the right to use any dressing room we please" mode and put yourself in the shoes of a Mainstreet USA woman. Right or wrong, a man in the fitting room trying on female undergarments is likely to be seen as creepy by other women. The man could have the most feminine heart around but at the end of the day he is still a guy trying on a bra.

Now how is that any different than trying on at VS in girl mode, or to take it a step further, any other women's clothing retailer? Perhaps it's no different but based on my experience, at least a feminine presentation starts to level the playing field, giving the women in the vicinity a point of reference that is hopefully less threatening than when one presents in guy mode. Either way, I actually have a dear friend who can make just as compelling of an argument that a guy has no business in a lingere store fitting room no matter how they are presenting.

And please understand Stephanie that anyone who knows anything about me realizes I have no apprehension about shopping in any mode. I believe in being respectful, honest and sincere and as such, I rarely encounter any negativity. We want acceptance and the ability to interact in public without ridicule or prejudice but we have responsibility as well. It's not just about us, it's about everyone we encounter. Positive interactions help curb perceptions, even if it's by only one individual at a time.

The SA was totally cool with my shopping there and gave me a promotiomal secret gift card to be used in the month of Dec as well as a card that lists my bra size, her name and voicemail number to contact her for assistance. So I felt welcomed and appreciated. Out of respect to the few ladies that did shop that, I kept my distance so as to not make them uncomfortable while they shopped.

Like I said before Shelby, even though you did something that I wouldn't necessarily do myself (the try-on thing in guy mode), I think you went about it in such a thoughtful and respectful manner, from picking a time when the store should be less busy to having a conscious respect for the women customers in the store. Now go back there in girl mode and I'm guessing you'll never look back!!!

[Viv]

Sara, I know we'll probably get flamed for this, but I agree with your last point. Respect and responsibility.

[JiveTurkeyOnRye]

Since we are getting a bit off the topic of the OP which was male desires with a feminine mindset, I am starting a new thread to continue Sarah Jessica's more general point about trying on lingerie and underwear: http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/...07#post1936507

Back to the original post, I have to agree with the people who said that the way to look at it isn't that they're treating you like a female, it's that they're treating you like a customer. A lingerie store employee is almost certain to have dealt with other male customers before you and will do so again, so you're really a non-event for them. That's why she was so relaxed about it, she's been there, seen that.

I've shopped at Target, the Gap, and plenty of other clothing stores in male mode, and took my time leisurely seeking out the clothing I might want to try on and then doing so. People tend to be at ease with you when you're at ease with yourself, so if you don't frantically grab stuff and then rush off into the dressing room like you're doing something wrong, then people usually won't treat you like you are.

I'm actually guessing that your apprehension you're feeling has less to do with male desires and a female mindset than it does with an uneasiness towards what you're doing not actually being a problem. I think we're so used to feeling like we're breaking a rule that when people are totally fine with us we sometimes don't know how to process that.

Your best buy information was interesting to me. I imagine the re-structuring also helped with not just female customers but also people in general from a generation like my parents who didn't grow up with all the high tech stuff we have now and are a bit more put off by it when it's thrust into their faces. Though, the notes about the male sales staff getting too excited about tech jargon actually made me laugh because I usually find the opposite at the best buys I go to, usually it's just some dumb guy who doesn't know a thing about what he's selling. Once I went into the store with my dad while he was shopping for a new lap top and I overheard a SA there telling someone completely wrong information and because I had worked in a computer store before, found myself slipping into that mindset and basically saving the guy's sale.

If you truly are concerned about your male/female conflict, I think I agree with others that you may be overthinking it. You've broken through the gender barrier, you're emancipated from having to follow the guidelines. You're free to be a beer-guzzling, sports and power tool loving, Die Hard watching guy, even if you do all that stuff while wearing a really awesome pair of heels and hoping the sweat from your brow doesn't mess up the makeup job you spent so much time on that morning.

[Stephenie S]

I'm talking about sacred territory when it comes to trying things on at VS (in keeping with the example we're talking about) and the perceptions of the customers. Take a moment and step outside of the "we have the right to use any dressing room we please" mode and put yourself in the shoes of a Mainstreet USA woman. Right or wrong, a man in the fitting room trying on female undergarments is likely to be seen as creepy by other women. The man could have the most feminine heart around but at the end of the day he is still a guy trying on a bra.

Dear Sara,

I did read your post, and I read it again. IMHO you are mistaken in this.

Listen. I am not saying you have a RIGHT to be there. Actually, I suspect that you DON'T have a right to be there. I think the store can ask you to leave at any time.

What I am saying is that the STORE wants you to be there. And that if you are clean and polite, they care not a whit what you are wearing. You will be welcome. Other customers? They care not a whit either. Is there ANYONE in the country who hasn't heard of crossdressers or transgendered people? As long as it's not THEIR husband or SO, nobody cares. And if another customer got upset, THEY would be the ones asked to leave VS.

You know, it's so easy to believe that you are the only one. That you alone are out there. But the truth is that there are thousands of crossdressers and transgendered people. ANYONE who works with the public sees and deals with crossdressers all the time. AND THEY DON'T CARE!!!!! Remember, SA are out there all day every day. They see thousands of people. They see and deal with CDs and TG customers all the time. If it's a retail establishment depending on customers for support thay WANT your business.

OK, I may be beating a dead horse here. But if your mind is open to learning something you will benifit from this concept.

Stephie

[Andy66]

Yes I feel uncomfortable at Best Buy. There's usually nothing wrong with the SAs; I just can't find anything in there, and see way too much stuff I don't know or care about. It gives me mental chaos.
Nice SAs, bad store layout, irrelevant products.

On the other hand, I love hardware stores, but too often the SAs are not helpful or treat me like an idiot. I have actually watched them many times, in different stores, ignore me and help a male customer in the same aisle. I even got into an argument with one jerk about what sort of washer I needed for my kitchen sink. Nice sensible store layout, fun products, crappy customer service.

As for VS, it's way too pink and crowded and I feel like the SAs are breathing down my neck. I avoid it.

[ReineD]

I noticed that she was treating me like any other woman buying a bra. She was being totally professional, polite and helpful. I could imagine her having this same conversation with women as well, but I am a guy - shouldn't I be treated like one? That was what my brain was saying to me. My brain kept telling me that it is abnormal for her to be comfortable and talking to me like she would to another woman. Perhaps my brain wouldn't have been saying those things had I dressed enfemme.

I think you were courageous in doing this and I admire you for it. But my question is, how differently would the SA have treated you as a guy? There are tons of guys on Valentines Day and Christmas who shop at VS for their wives or gfs. Some must be a little embarrassed while I imagine others relish every minute of the experience. SAs would not treat them any differently than they treat you or me?

On the other hand your guy self has moved beyond feeling embarrassed, but it is an emotion you are familiar with. So maybe you subconsciously expect SAs to be embarrassed over the idea there is a guy in the changing room trying on bras? If this is the case I can see your point. The world is changing and national chains like VS have excellent SA training. But if you were shopping in the almost extinct, independently owned, small town lingerie store, and you were helped by a SA who had had her job there for 40 years, you likely would have been treated very differently than at VS.

Perhaps some of our beloved GG's can help provide some female insight on this. Have you ever shopped at a Male-dominant business and been treated like one of the guys and how did it make you feel?

I love going to BB. The sounds, the electronics, TVs, everything. But not for computers. I'll take Apple over BB anytime!

An even more male dominant business is home improvement. I would hate being treated like a woman who doesn't understand anything about construction. True I don't know as much as my dad or brother, so I ask questions. I've always received courteous and professional help in the major home improvement chains. The staff at local lumber yards tend to be a little condescending at first, but when they realize I want to learn how to do the job right just like anyone else, they come around. Even better, they usually end up bending over backwards to be helpful. This is because I do not allow myself to become intimidated and more important, I really do get immense satisfaction out of gender-role bending. It disarms the unsuspecting (older) male. Younger men tend to be pretty cool about it though and they do not tend to discriminate.

I felt like I made a big step yesterday and will continue to make other steps into the female world.

Congratulations! It is people like you who go out and help to change societal attitudes towards a greater acknowledgment of gender variance.