An intellectual discussion on social acceptance (tomboys vs girls like us)

[Sophie_C]

Ok, I was wondering for people's thoughts on this, since it's crossed my mind. We've all known that girls being very "boy-ish" has been considered alright but the converse has been never strongly accepted in any way, shape or form.

And, I really wonder why?

Is it because it's somewhat of a man's world, and anything embracing that is looked highly upon?

Is it because feminism has made such headway that basically anything goes since such individuality has become a cornerstone for women in society?

Is it because we haven't had a substantial amount of people in mainstream society who have taken a stand to make it considered "not such a big deal?"

Or, is it something more?

It just sort of blows my mind that (as a simple example) a girl like, say, Samantha Ronson, effectively dresses like a skinny transman every single day without someone batting an eye, but if a man even wears a lavender shirt (entirely male clothing, still), people are bent over backwards, wondering what the hell is wrong with that person.

It's almost like the more free gender roles are for GGs, the less free they are for GMs.

So, anyway let's make sure to keep this intellectual. I'd love to hear other people's thoughts on this, from every corner of this forum.

[JenetGG]

I think it's a matter of timing. It just so happens that Women's Liberation came first. Before that movement or early on, women were chastised for wearing pants. Now it's Men's Liberation time and it takes time for the culture to shift. It seems like it's happening though. RuPaul is accepted right?

[goofus]

I think it's a matter of timing. It just so happens that Women's Liberation came first. Before that movement or early on, women were chastised for wearing pants. Now it's Men's Liberation time and it takes time for the culture to shift. It seems like it's happening though. RuPaul is accepted right?

Yeah, by many, but then RuPaul is gay. Most folks still cannot wrap their minds around the idea of a straight man wanting to dress as a woman.

[ggtracy]

In my area, the metrosexual look is popular. So it is becoming more acceptable here to be a feminine male. (pastel shirts, trimmed eyebrows, lazer hair removal, manicures). I live in a big metropolitan city so maybe it will take some time to catch on other locations.

However, being a GG, I think that to society, there is a big difference between a feminine man and a man trying to pass as a female. The later seems to throw some people off guard and make them uncomfortable. Mostly because they don't understand the motivation for it.

Tomboys are girls who dress how they want, simple and comfortable. they are not trying to pass as a man.

[MiraM]

It just sort of blows my mind that (as a simple example) a girl like, say, Samantha Ronson, effectively dresses like a skinny transman every single day without someone batting an eye, but if a man even wears a lavender shirt (entirely male clothing, still), people are bent over backwards, wondering what the hell is wrong with that person.

Just curious, what exactly does a Transman dress like? I know several Transmen, and I am married to a Transman. They dress like any other guy. I want to know what they are supposed to dress like, so I can tell them. Gotta make sure the are wearing proper transman attire.

[docrobbysherry]

I'm still trying to get approval from MYSELF, for CDing!

[kellycan27]

Why the constant comparison to GG's? We are not or ever will gg's . Isn't dressing like they do enough? Why do some feel that they have to invade their domain right to it's core? If they can't be like gg in every way.. i'ts not fair...

[JiveTurkeyOnRye]

You know, I really get tired of this argument that women who wear masculine stuff have no social stigma whatsoever. As if terms like "bull dyke" didn't exist, and that women with short hair and a penchant for wearing pants and never skirts and dresses aren't just assumed to be lesbians. Is it more socially acceptable for women to be masculine than for men to be feminine? Yes of course it is, but it isn't all sunshine over in transman land either. There's a big difference between tomboys and transmen.

Samantha Ronson dresses somewhat masculinely, yes. She was also one half of a tabloidy lesbian couple, which is partially why she doesn't get as much flack as others might, it's because she's openly known as being a lesbian. Also, aside from her relationship with Lindsay Lohan, she's hardly someone who is often discussed in the mainstream media. I imagine no one bats an eye with her because most people have no idea who she is, let alone how she dresses.

but GGTracy hit the nail on the head, in my opinion. Female to Male "crossdressing" is more mainstream because frankly, with the exception of transmen, women still dress like women. When women started truly getting acceptance for wearing pants, they didn't do it to pass as men, they did it as women being able to wear the clothes they want. As Women!

If the goal is to gain public acceptance of men wearing what are considered women's clothes, then we need to stop clinging to the idea of passing convincingly and trying to look like women, taking on pseudonyms with female names that hide our identities, and wearing falsies all over our body with the attempt to disguise ourselves as women, because we're not doing anything but continuing the cycle in the same way it has been for generations. We're basically agreeing, ok, you're right, men shouldn't wear this stuff, so if I'm going to wear it, obviously I need to be dressed as a woman.

I'm not saying no one should dress to "pass." If you're truly transgendered then you should, just like transmen do. But if all you really want to do is crossdress because you like the clothes, the goal really should be to present yourself as a positive example of a crossdressing man, at least if you want to be the male equivalent of a "tomboy."

[Andy66]

Is it because we haven't had a substantial amount of people in mainstream society who have taken a stand to make it considered "not such a big deal?"

Yeah, I think that's probably the biggest factor, although the rest of the reasons you suggest are also a part of it.

If you take a look at other civil rights/acceptance/tolerance struggles, such as the black and other People Of Color civil rights movements; and gay and women's civil rights movements, making themselves highly visible, getting people used to seeing them, and educating people to counteract negative stereotypes are probably the most effective actions they could have taken.

It's almost like the more free gender roles are for GGs, the less free they are for GMs.

I think there are, or SHOULD BE, plenty of gender roles to go around. In fact, I don't see why we should try to fit into well~defined roles at all. We should just be humans. Frankly, I don't see how my wearing pants makes it more difficult for you to wear a dress. It's not like there's some quota where there are only so many opportunities to dress how we want, and GGs are hogging them all up. I'm not trying to take anything away from you, and believe it or not I want you to be able to be yourself. I'm on your side.

[Ze]

You know, I really get tired of this argument that women who wear masculine stuff have no social stigma whatsoever. As if terms like "bull dyke" didn't exist, and that women with short hair and a penchant for wearing pants and never skirts and dresses aren't just assumed to be lesbians. Is it more socially acceptable for women to be masculine than for men to be feminine? Yes of course it is, but it isn't all sunshine over in transman land either. There's a big difference between tomboys and transmen.

Thank you.

I didn't want to participate in this thread because I'm sick of beating a dead horse, but I just wanted to say thanks for making this point.

[ColleenW]

If the goal is to gain public acceptance of men wearing what are considered women's clothes, then we need to stop clinging to the idea of passing convincingly and trying to look like women, taking on pseudonyms with female names that hide our identities, and wearing falsies all over our body with the attempt to disguise ourselves as women, because we're not doing anything but continuing the cycle in the same way it has been for generations. We're basically agreeing, ok, you're right, men shouldn't wear this stuff, so if I'm going to wear it, obviously I need to be dressed as a woman.

I think you've hit on a good point here, Alyssa. So perhaps we should just wear what we feel comfortable with, i.e. "push the envelope" and wait for society to catch up.

[Intertwined]

However, being a GG, I think that to society, there is a big difference between a feminine man and a man trying to pass as a female. The later seems to throw some people off guard and make them uncomfortable. Mostly because they don't understand the motivation for it.

Tomboys are girls who dress how they want, simple and comfortable. they are not trying to pass as a man.

So True... also I believe that some feel they are being lied to, " a person trying to present themselves as something they are not "

When women started truly getting acceptance for wearing pants, they didn't do it to pass as men, they did it as women being able to wear the clothes they want. As Women!

I agree, but, the one stumbling block here, I don't know this as fact, but I believe the pants they were wearing, were made, or atleast altered to fit the female body, now if the clothing manufacturing industry just made mens clothing, in the same colors, materials and styles as womens clothing, there would be no need for me to crossdress, would there?

I'm not saying no one should dress to "pass." If you're truly transgendered then you should, just like transmen do. But if all you really want to do is crossdress because you like the clothes, the goal really should be to present yourself as a positive example of a crossdressing man, at least if you want to be the male equivalent of a "tomboy."

Reminds me of one night many months ago, I stopped to give a guy that had a dead battery a jump start, I know I gave him a heck of a start when I stepped out of my Toyota in a skirt and heels. got his big Chevy 4x4 started, he said thanks, shook my hand, and darn near laid rubber leaving...

[Rachel Morley]

Tomboys are girls who dress how they want, simple and comfortable. They are not trying to pass as a man.

When women started truly getting acceptance for wearing pants, they didn't do it to pass as men, they did it as women being able to wear the clothes they want. As Women!

These two quotes pretty much nail it for me. If we're talking not so much about being transgendered (in the sense that you want to pass) but just wearing the clothes then it's more about "Total Clothing Rights". The idea that clothing is about fashion and not gender expression and everyone has the right to wear whatever fashion style they want to.

However, when you say:

We've all known that girls being very "boy-ish" has been considered alright but the converse has been never strongly accepted in any way, shape or form. And, I really wonder why?

... are you talking about behavior, not clothes? If it's behavior then we're in a different territory. Then it's about the social pressures to conform to stereotypical masculine behavior because if you are a guy and you act like a woman then you are apparently throwing away your male privileges (yes, it still is a man's world after all) and are "going down the scale" in the eyes of other men.

IMHO to get people used to the idea of guys being able to openly wear women's designed clothes in boy mode as a guy (like women can wear men's designed clothes in girl mode) I think will only happen when it's becomes more acceptable to be a feminine man in general society and also that people start seeing it more often, on TV, in magazines, in real life etc etc. The two go together - acceptance from other guys that being a feminine man is ok, and that the total clothing rights issue is about it just being a fashion statement.

How can I help? - I already do a little as I go out in public in boy mode but in fairly obvious women's clothes in a sort of "girly-boy" presentation (trying to be an androgynous feminine guy) and I act the same way as I normally do in girl mode (i.e. not very manly) .... but I'm woefully under-performing in this area as if my confidence is low then I don't wear as much eye makeup and my clothes are still girly but they are less girly. I should make it more obvious and show people that I am proud of being feminine ... because I am.

[Fab Karen]

What's the worst insult a male can get in this society? To be called a girl/woman. That alone speaks volumes. To be NOT male is to be considered "less than."

"It just sort of blows my mind that (as a simple example) a girl like, say, Samantha Ronson, effectively dresses like a skinny transman every single day without someone batting an eye, but if a man even wears a lavender shirt (entirely male clothing, still), people are bent over backwards, wondering what the hell is wrong with that person."
Lohan's girlfriend ( a lesbian to spell it out slowly for some ). And as someone else pointed out, exactly what is "official" transman attire?
What tiny backwoods town are you in that a man in a lavendar shirt leads to questions about him?

[Joni Marie Cruz]

Well, here's another take on it. It has to do with economics and class. Not to wax too Marxist, but nearly everything boils down to those factors. Take this how you will, but many men, I said "many", not "all", consider women to be inferior to men. Yes, even in this day and age, imagine! Just listen to the lyrics of a lot of popular songs as well as the fact that most women, once again, not "all", make about 2/3rds of what a man does for doing the same work.

So for a lot of men, and even many women who have unconsciously soaked up the feeling of being inferior to men, a man, a member of a privileged class, wanting to be a woman, whether permanently or temporarily, is about the equivalent of a free, white, male in the pre-Civil South wanting to be a black field-hand. It rocks a fundamental verity of their world view and when people get their beliefs questioned it makes them upset and they lash out.

Just a thought.

Hugs...Joni Mari

[Granny Gray]

It was, perhaps, 1964 or +/- a year of two, Dr. Verne Bullough published an article in The American Journal of Sociology entitled: Transvestites in History. In the article he explores some of the factors in society which impact on the issues involved when males dress as females and do so in public. If you live in a college or University town and can access the library on campus, I recommend this article. Granny

[Frédérique]

Ok, I was wondering for people's thoughts on this, since it's crossed my mind. We've all known that girls being very "boy-ish" has been considered alright but the converse has been never strongly accepted in any way, shape or form.

[SIZE="2"]I think because in this day and age it’s considered to be a perversion and a sign of weakness, among other things. Personally, I feel that “preferring to be feminine*” is a sign of strength and courage, and it should be admired in males.[/SIZE]
* an excellent quote from Cheshire Gummi

And, I really wonder why?
Is it because it's somewhat of a man's world, and anything embracing that is looked highly upon?

[SIZE="2"]But why can’t men be openly feminine? I suppose if men talked to each other, rather than fight each other, the whole system of maleness might break down. What if a male apologized to another male and accepted his “weakness” in the eyes of everyone? Maybe it would then become less of a “man’s world,” and we could all start to evolve more quickly.[/SIZE]

Is it because feminism has made such headway that basically anything goes since such individuality has become a cornerstone for women in society?

[SIZE="2"]If anything goes, then crossdressing most certainly “goes,” wouldn’t you say? It’s possible that feminism has had an effect on our lifestyles, and we are something like a side effect of their newly won freedoms, but men wearing women’s clothing (and vice versa) has been going on for a long time.[/SIZE]

Is it because we haven't had a substantial amount of people in mainstream society who have taken a stand to make it considered "not such a big deal?"

[SIZE="2"]It’s just very hard for people to understand why anyone would do this. The level of discussion among us, here on this site, is a clue to how difficult it is to explain or rationalize our behavior. This actually attracts me, and keeps me rolling along, regardless of whether I’m accepted by society or not. It has to be one of the most difficult and brave things a male can do, IMHO…[/SIZE]

Or, is it something more?

[SIZE="2"]The homosexual angle needs to be explored in this context. We live in an anti-gay period when homosexuals are making tentative inroads into everyday life. People with fixed opinions (not original thoughts but ideas forced upon them) are uncomfortable with this change in their lives. Surely, when a crossdresser comes along and wants some form of equality, he or she is lumped in with homosexuals for better or worse. There’s little or no sympathy for those who crossdress, gay or straight, and that’s just a shame in supposedly “enlightened” times like these. It also doesn't help that homosexuals were associated with effeminacy at one time, and they have worked hard to change this stereotypical view, winning some acceptance for themselves but doing nothing for the "cause" of effeminacy. [/SIZE]

It just sort of blows my mind that (as a simple example) a girl like, say, Samantha Ronson, effectively dresses like a skinny transman every single day without someone batting an eye, but if a man even wears a lavender shirt (entirely male clothing, still), people are bent over backwards, wondering what the hell is wrong with that person.

[SIZE="2"]I met a man the other day who admired my pink bracelet. He showed me his, but it was wrapped around his wallet rather than his wrist – I felt sorry for him, because he couldn’t allow other men to see even this tiny amount of “pinkness.” [/SIZE]

It's almost like the more free gender roles are for GGs, the less free they are for GMs.

[SIZE="2"]I wouldn’t know about that. As an artist, I’m free to embrace the feminine as much as I want, in fact I can’t be an artist if I don’t…[/SIZE]

So, anyway let's make sure to keep this intellectual. I'd love to hear other people's thoughts on this, from every corner of this forum.

[SIZE="2"]Well, you reached my dark, claustrophobic corner of the forum! More questions than answers, I'm afraid. Ahhhhhhhhh – feel that refreshing breeze of intellectualism…[/SIZE]

[Frédérique]

(tomboys vs girls like us)

[SIZE="2"]We all know about “tomboys” and I’ve heard the word (or description) “tomgirl,” too.
How about “janegirl” or “janeboy?” I’m definitely a janeboy…[/SIZE]

[rosetyler]

The first thought that comes into my head is this: in general, GG tomboy's aren't trying to look completely like guys, while a goal for many m2f cd'ers is to pass as a girl.

[battybattybats]

Why the constant comparison to GG's? We are not or ever will gg's . Isn't dressing like they do enough? Why do some feel that they have to invade their domain right to it's core? If they can't be like gg in every way.. i'ts not fair...

You know, I'm utterly sick of this nonsense argument so I'm going to slay it right now!

Some CDs are also GGs

Proof: 1 in 60 people are Intersex.

Some GGs are in fact males on their chromasomes but have no idea of that.

Some CDs will actually be XXY or another form of Intersex without knowing it and thus be genetically female or both female and male genetically as well as having a female identity despite the male upbringing.

Someone could go their whole life with a womans genes and a womans internal identity but only know of themselves as CDs.. and in fact 1 in every 60 members here are likely to be Intersex! And 1 in every 60 GGs here would be too!

Oh and the science now suggests that gays and lesbians are neurologically intersex, TSs are neurologically Intersex and it could well be that most CDs are also biologically some degree of Intersex too!

The false gender binary is unscientific drivel. There is massive diversity and no one may claim dominion over any aspect of it.. as some IS conditions allow IS GGs to FATHER children there is not one aspect of being male or female that is totally only available to one sex!

[Jamie001]

I disagree. Not all CDs try to pass as a girl. Myself and several other girls on the website choose to be men in skirts, heels, and other items buy don't try to pass as female. We are both genders rolled into one.

The first thought that comes into my head is this: in general, GG tomboy's aren't trying to look completely like guys, while a goal for many m2f cd'ers is to pass as a girl.

[kellycan27]

You know, I'm utterly sick of this nonsense argument so I'm going to slay it right now!

Some CDs are also GGs

Proof: 1 in 60 people are Intersex.

Some GGs are in fact males on their chromasomes but have no idea of that.

Some CDs will actually be XXY or another form of Intersex without knowing it and thus be genetically female or both female and male genetically as well as having a female identity despite the male upbringing.

Someone could go their whole life with a womans genes and a womans internal identity but only know of themselves as CDs.. and in fact 1 in every 60 members here are likely to be Intersex! And 1 in every 60 GGs here would be too!

Oh and the science now suggests that gays and lesbians are neurologically intersex, TSs are neurologically Intersex and it could well be that most CDs are also biologically some degree of Intersex too!

The false gender binary is unscientific drivel. There is massive diversity and no one may claim dominion over any aspect of it.. as some IS conditions allow IS GGs to FATHER children there is not one aspect of being male or female that is totally only available to one sex!

And your point is what? That gg's can't claim dominion over being female,because some scientific study "suggests" that 1 in 60 are "LIKEY" to be inter sexed? Lets say for the sake of argument that in some cases this is true. What about all of these men in skirts that claim that they don't wish to be female. and don't feel that they are female yet still complain about how unfair it is that gg's can do this or that and they cannot. How many claim that they feel feminine when the dress, but can easily shift back to male mode when they need to.... and also complain about the disparity? Are you suggesting that these people may be IS and not even know it? I understand that there is diversity, but as far as IS, 1 in 60 would seem more likely the exception than the rule. Like it or not gender binary may be "scientific drivel" ... but it is what society accepts, and until society can be made to see it differently,society will keep accepting it. soooo unfair, but that's the reality wouldn't you say? Scientific studies and statistic are only as good as the people who read,understand and care about them. With everything that is going on in the world today, do you honestly believe that the average person ( the ones that we have to deal with on a daily basis) gives two shakes of a lamb's tail about scientific studies in regards to gender identity. I seriously doubt that many in here give a rat's ass about scientific study as they are too busy with their lives and problems, to worry about the "Mass diversity". It may give one pause, or be a good thread topic, but when they sign out,it's back to their little piece of this thing. Until the masses can be educated, it's the ones who take it upon themselves that are going to slip through the cracks. The ones who are willing to dress in any fashion that they choose.. a man in a dress, a man presenting as a woman, or whoever and however they fit into the mass diversity,are the ones who will and have seen acceptance. The ones who aren't afraid, and take it upon themselves to take a chance. The rest will continue to blame society for their fear. And please, before you site how many transgendered people get injured or killed, just remember one thing. These people died or were harmed because they had the guts to be true to their covictions. Using them as a crutch only serves to sully their memory and make it look like what they did was for not. It takes sacrifice and a good set of b***s to get out there and say.. How do you like me now! Batty, I always read your posts with great interest. I don't always agree with you, but your arguments are always pretty solid, and you always have a lot of informative information.... but it's only as good as those scientic studies and statistics... if it goes no further than in a thread,or falls on deaf ears.
Kelly

[Ingrid1999]

As per Sophie's original post I agree with all of the rationales she presented. I also agree with Joni Marie that society is seriously invested in masculinity and anyone who "chooses" to "act like a woman" is definatly going against the rules. And a "man" who wants to look like a "woman" is seen as dissing the "natural order".

Females have earned a lot of freedom over the last hundred years, they fought for it, lived lives of uncertainty and loss for those freedoms. Females are flying combat missions this very day, something they were barred from doing just about 10 years ago. A young woman dared to play College football, and was sexually assaulted for her temerity. Males(in general) are just begining to question society's roles for them.

I do belive that if we manage not to blow up the world, decend into the dark ages, or let clerics and authoritarians run our lives, gender freedom in Western society is enevitable. Many young people are experimenting with gender in ways unimaginable just 20 years ago. With access to the internet and over 50 years of scholarship in genders studies young people can transition sooner and even postpone puberty untill they can choose for themselves. 20 years ago your kid might come home from college to tell you they're gay. Now they might come home in some stage of gender transition or experimentation.

In time this will lead to more social acceptance of gender transgressive behavior. And I think this is what so panics the old guard traditionalists. They see their little black and white world crumbling at the foundations.

[battybattybats]

And your point is what?

That strict ctagories of male and female are false. Illusions. Caused by a missunderstanding because male and female traits are scattered across a bi-modal distribution even on the genetic level and so there are common traits to each society pretends these are universals when they are nothing of the kind.

No-one is totally one and not any iota the other. Not even the XYY guys that are so often prison-bound.

No trait is solely belonging to one and not the other.

So to say CDs are not or can never be GGs is false cause some of us are and don't know it. Some here may well be more GGs than some here who have lived all their lives thinking they are GGs!

Binary gender is a lie, an illusion, false. Science says even genetically sex and gender are diverse with combinations and variations aplenty.

Society adapted to the fact the earth is round despite looking flat unless examined closely. We need to accept that sex and gender are diverse.

And that means we must rid ourselves of the notion that CDs are not able to be women, cannot legitimately be women. Because plenty are, both biologically, neurologically, psychologically, socially.

[kellycan27]

That strict ctagories of male and female are false. Illusions. Caused by a missunderstanding because male and female traits are scattered across a bi-modal distribution even on the genetic level and so there are common traits to each society pretends these are universals when they are nothing of the kind.

No-one is totally one and not any iota the other. Not even the XYY guys that are so often prison-bound.

No trait is solely belonging to one and not the other.

So to say CDs are not or can never be GGs is false cause some of us are and don't know it. Some here may well be more GGs than some here who have lived all their lives thinking they are GGs!

Binary gender is a lie, an illusion, false. Science says even genetically sex and gender are diverse with combinations and variations aplenty.

Society adapted to the fact the earth is round despite looking flat unless examined closely. We need to accept that sex and gender are diverse.

And that means we must rid ourselves of the notion that CDs are not able to be women, cannot legitimately be women. Because plenty are, both biologically, neurologically, psychologically, socially.

Regardless, your point is moot. You may be right on paper, but it doesn't change how things really are.(societies view) Wouldn't it be nice if.........