FtM > FtMtF Cders.

[NiCo]

Not quite sure where this goes...move it if it's in the wrong place.

Have you guys heard of this…

That it’s relatively common for transmen to transition from [hate this] “female” to male and then once they are happy they pass as men…to crossdress to female…

Don’t ask where I got this from…a magazine lol.

It’s interesting though…because I haven’t heard a MtF crossdressing to male…and my own thoughts as to why this is, is as follows:

Have you noticed how much more common it is for trans people to be either Cders [as in men dressing in female clothing], TV’s and MtF’s [transsexual,] compared to the less common FtMs? Well maybe…just maybe…the fact us guys are born with male brains…it’s like…I don’t know…a normal fetish associated with men?

[Lets erase MtFs from this now, cause they are women]

Do you understand what I’m saying? I’m not saying every single one of you guys do this…I’m not saying I do…I’m just saying from what I have read. Init.

Another thing, I can accept this…cause, why should we be limited to doing things other guys might?

Personally I have a fetish for BDSM. Other people have fetishes for tights…smoking fetishes [even though they know it’s harmful?]…etc etc etc…so why can’t a transman have a fetish for crossdressing too?

I think this is interesting. You may not…you may? I dunno, but I’m posting this to see what you all think on this matter.

At this moment in time, crossdressing does not appeal to me [I’m afraid I’d pass too well and might anger a few xdressers <<< joke] but who knows…my reason: My dad had this “tradition” kind of thing where at Christmas [or any other get-together family happening] where he’d dress up…and one Christmas he came into the lounge wearing a PVC dress and a Santa Claus coat, beard and stockings etc and called himself “Sandra Claus” and it was hilarious.

He did it for fun. He did it to make people laugh. And I’m a lot like my dad [even though I would like to deny this, I cannot]. I have the same weird humour as he does…

I see it also this way…if I act all macho all the time, who is to say that due to this…people are going to question me for being overly macho? If I vigorously refuse to dress up for Halloween as female, when all my male mates are, will they not question this? And what would I say? Hell no…I’d do it! Cause it’s all fun and games…I guess…

Anyway, am I making sense or talking sh*t once again? Lol.

[Ze]

Good points. I've never really stopped to think about some of this.

But to be honest, I have no idea what to respond to this other than yeah, I get what you're saying.

You're answers for "why?" or "why not?" are likely cultural, though. Though even that I can't explain properly at the moment.

Yeah, I'm useless.

[SirTrey]

I have known a couple of transguys who have done exactly what you are talking about....and it made Me really wonder why....so I have no answers when it comes to that....I personally have no desire to dress female, ever....I didn't when I was growing up and I don't now....but it is a curious thing to Me when I see transguys do that....I know one who does drag shows....I have never been able to wrap My head around that one....Too complicated for My pea brain to figure out, LOL.....but an interesting topic, I give you that.

[Ze]

Yeah, and it makes you wonder then...

If we had been born genetically male, would we be more apt to a drag show or something? Is it because we truly don't have a taste for it or are we just trying our best to assign ourselves to the proper gender?

I'm not making any sense again. Either way, I think most transmen don't willingly dress in women's clothes for a laugh is because we were traumatized as children.

[NiCo]

Well there is a load of guys who don’t dress up, and there is a load that does…why should transguys be different? We don’t have to slot into that category where everything we do HAS to be MALE, OR, if that’s the case…then men xdress…so transguys can too?

I’m confused now.

-leaves for a cigarette-

Lol.

[SirTrey]

Maybe they do it to get in touch with their former lives in some way? Like they never got past mourning the person they once were (or were perceived as)? Just an idea, because I have no clue.

[Ze]

Yeah, I think transguys could cross-dress, but I think at the same time we're fighting women's clothes to begin with, so...

I dunno.

Not saying no transman is allowed to do it or anything, but I can definitely see why few transmen would want to do it.

At the same time, though, perhaps it's some sort of security thing. You feel so comfortable in your projected masculinity that it's not a thread to your passing to cross-dress?

[NiCo]

I think it's more realistically the fact they are confident about their feelings of being male rather than holding onto the past.

My feminine traits were flung in the bin along with the other sh*t but it doesn't mean i wouldn't do it for a laugh? If all my mates done it, i'd look an idiot to refuse...seeing how i'm always one to do mad sh*t, they'd expect me to be the same and would question me if i refused.

Also, when i've got a drink in me, everything seems like a good idea and i'm up for anything lol.

I dunno...i guess there is more to it than i put.

Because if you look at it this way.

MtFs: generally there is-
TV's
Cders
and transsexuals.

The first two are different to each other.

Well surely there are "sub-categories" to these.

FtMs...but CD, TV and TS Ftms.

What i mean is, the Cder could be doing it for fun, they like it occasionally [blah blah] and a FtM TV could be doing it as more fetish based...

Me is Confused.org.

Make sense? At least I know what I mean lol.

[SirTrey]

LOL...What a topic....There is the fact, though, that what others do can and does adversely affect us...ie: In a world of people who don't understand trans at all, this would tend to reinforce their stereotype that transfolks are just confused people, or mentally ill, or don't know what they want or who they are....and that does carry real life consequences for all of us....That may not be a popular thing to say in an age of "everything is fine" political correctness...but it is true, nonetheless.

[NiCo]

I agree. I can see what you are saying.

If it was open that a FtM was xdressing to female, they could be seen as confused. Hmmm...

That's probably why most don't admit it to anyone, or they feel the need to be macho all the time to "prove" that they are [as a medical pro would say] "true transsexual"

[SirTrey]

And until transsexualism is taken seriously, we will suffer discrimination, will not be able to get laws passed when we need to, and will be a joke to a good percentage of society....So, yeah, I admit I cringe when I see things like that.

[Ze]

LOL...What a topic....There is the fact, though, that what others do can and does adversely affect us...ie: In a world of people who don't understand trans at all, this would tend to reinforce their stereotype that transfolks are just confused people, or mentally ill, or don't know what they want or who they are....and that does carry real life consequences for all of us....That may not be a popular thing to say in an age of "everything is fine" political correctness...but it is true, nonetheless.

I have to actually agree. I'd never (or would you) tell somebody that they could or couldn't do something, but it starts to make the whole community even more misread if we're all lumped together. The general public seems to think that an individual represents a whole group. And that's a no-no for any group you're thinking about.

For me, I guess it comes down to the wish that society change its views pretty darn quick rather than us having to worry about how we're represented. I guess we'd all choose that if we could. But it's highly unlikely it'd happen, so we're stuck.

I wonder if any MtF (non-CD) ladies have done drag king stuff?

[NiCo]

I have to admit, i cringed a bit when i read this in the magazine. I thought "for f*** sake, not another portrayal that we are freaks" lol.

But, only the sh*tty stories are published often, not the real community. It's crap but i guess society needs something to laugh at cause they are too p*ssy to laugh at their selves!

I’d only do it as a laugh with my mates or if I was really really pissed [with my mates, obviously] but I’d probably not do it for a fetish…it’s not really as good as being smacked to the floor then chained to a sink and left for several hours…

Wait…………..

[SirTrey]

Take the pregnant transguy, for example....My opinion is that he did nothing but harm to the FtM community by putting himself out in front of the media like he did....because.....then society says, "Oh, so you want to be a man...you believe that you ARE a man....but you will default to chick if that gets you what you want"....A lot of transguys have kids, but generally, it's PRE-transition, not post-transition....If transsexuality is to be taken seriously, as a REAL entity, reinforcing stereotypes of confusion and compromise don't help our cause at all.

[NiCo]

That transguy who had that baby really freaked me out. Cause it made my dad look at me and he said "if you ever do anything like that, i'll f***ing kill you" [as in do what he did, get the media involved] cause my dad was thinking "why fling more fuel on the fire, bring a war to your doorstep"

All them years spent trying to pass and fit in, burned to ash in the fire.

Pointless.

And yeah, it's different if it's pre everything. Much different.

[ashcrimson]

My guess is that it is because of residual desires that still linger in these peoples heads. It is like a ratio in a way, a feeling that you are like 100% female or male, 50/50, or you dont always feel this strongly and it is just 20% of the other side - which leads to crossdressing at rare occasions or 80% which to some is enough to completely dress as the opposite of your biological sex. It is that +-20% that lingers at times that still create cravings within yourself that some feel they need to satisfy still. The actions become unbalanced because the signals on the brain are unbalanced. Note, numbers given are mere possible examples.

[NiCo]

In that case it would be bigender?

[Ze]

I think so, yeah.

Personally, I know I was getting confused at the beginning of my identity as to whether I was genderqueer or a transman. *shrugs* I think the labels can get confused, too. If you realize you're a genetic female with the desire to present yourself as a man, you might automatically consider yourself "FtM" when you don't also take into account your desires to also still dress feminine on occasion.

[ashcrimson]

Nico, if the question was addressed to me, I am not certain of the correct term for this. Sticking to the topic alone, I believe humans are constantly subjected to a composite made up of female and male desires for association. To most the signal carries more male properties so they decide to go for that image, the same goes for women. Usually humans seem to choose not to act upon the residual desire because other desires are more important to them like the need to be accepted. So in a way its also a balance of many things, things that are not related to it ~ it is a matter of priority and choosing which to satisfy.

People who have already taken the first step however, find it easier to try to satisfy both desires because they have already done the hard part, dressing as a man when you are a woman or vice versa. Wont it be easier for a biological woman to dress as a woman, if there would even be an effort that is? I am talking of course in terms of social matters since that is one of the major things that hinder a lot of us from crossdressing in the first place.

Everything that I am saying are mere assumptions and theories of course, this is not my field afterall and I can be wrong.

Addendum:
Ze, yes, that is why I believe there are people who have both desires - male and female. We have all just gotten used to labels, because it is simpler that way. Simpler isnt always accurate and correct.

[deja true]

I'm fascinated by this conversation ... but, like you guys, I'm a little confused by the whole thing ...

So I looked for a corollary from this side of the fence ... this may be one,or maybe not.

How about a trans woman (post SRS or not... doesn't matter, I think) who might find a thrill in dressing as an uber macho dude - cop, lumberjack, marlboro man - ... not all the time, but, as you say NiCo, as a lark.

Like your examples in the first post, it seems to me to be an expression of a genderqueer genderf*ck statement. While both, trans-men and trans-women, in no small part, seem to want to adhere more closely with their gender expression of choice, there are still quite a few who have a more radical (may I say anarchic?) sense of how they want to present or even play with gender roles. Maybe their point is to satirize or ridicule the whole notion of gender roles in society completely.

(Ya think maybe the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence out there in Kal-ee-for-nye-yay fit into this kind of thing somehow?)

Keep on lads, this is way thought provoking!

[Ze]

Good point, Deja. And it makes it all the more confusing for me since I know some GQ people are their identities because they felt the need just like any of us, yet some GQ people are their identities because they simply want to mess with society. Like you said, in an anarchical way.

[NiCo]

Keep on lads, this is way thought provoking!

How do you think i feel lol, i think about all this stuff constantly!

Haha. I see what you are saying and it's quite interesting.

I love studying society and stuff...

I like taboo...

I'm an anarchist but only in general and not on a particular thing such as gender. Because it's all a bit "raw" to me at the moment, I’m still in shock at what i have had to endure and all the struggles.

Put it this way, i am neither wanting to prove anything nor am i confused lol.

[SirTrey]

Whenever any group tries to push a very radical concept down society's throat, it gets kicked to the curb...Acceptance is slow enough as it is.....Don't you think that society has to wrap its head around "transgender/transexual" before it can deal with 'bi-gender"? I think society would view bi-gender people as simply confused people who don't know WHO they are....and it muddies the water....The longer we go without acceptance, the longer we suffer as a group....As nice as it is to go to an all you can eat buffet, life is not one. It's enough to ask an employer to accept an employee who is transitioning from one gender to the next....Now we want to force them to accept an employee who will show up on random days presenting as two different people? Take emotion off the table for just one sec....Logic says that is not going to happen...At least not right now.

[4serrus]

I dunno man, this all sounds like politics to me. and **** politics.

Gender's not a binary and people are weird. Like, really effing weird.

And never trust anything you read in a magazine, half of its made up. Statistically there's just as many 'ftm' spectrum people as there are 'mtf' spectrum people but people who start off with the girl parts are seen as 'rarer' because they don't get the attention of the media (it's got to do with patriarchy and shit and media bias and shock love). The reason crossdressing is so one-sided is cuz a girl can wear pants and overalls and flannel (even a tie!) and nobody really cares anymore. Plus there's the patriarchy thing again, it's not shocking cuz it just reinforces the 'men are superior' complex. Lot of people, they think its cute or sexy for a girl to wear men's clothing (especially if it's his clothes... 'she was wearing my shirt in the morning' you know?). But going the other way's different. Female to male's seen as moving upwards, and once you've moved up why would you want to go down again? Why 'debase' yourself? It's all patriarchy bullshit.

You'll have to excuse me, I'm a little incoherent today.

[onerous]

yeah, i somewhat crossdress. it amuses me.

i don't have female clothes, but the other day i put my legs into the armholes of this black t-shirt i have and tucked the top into underwear, it looked like a tight short black skirt, honestly it somewhat aroused me lol. (i've never worn a skirt before in my life so it felt pretty interesting seeing it :P)

and i always stare at my boobs in the mirror, making sure to avoid looking at my face. i poke em, squish em, punch em (VERY hard- as in beating my chest with all my might), dig lint out of the nipple holes with a toothpick, etc.
girls have no interest in being with me and im desperate enough to turn my unfortunately-shaped body into something for entertainment purposes. theres some disconnect with my brain and my body, like it's "mine" but not really mine hehe, so it doesn't exactly make me dysphoric doing it.

..TMI? OT? im a pervert heh. an occasional mtf cd in a ftm tg's body? labels are confusing aren't they?