When is crossdressing *not* crossdressing?

[Byllie]

According to Wikipedia, Crossdressing is defined as "the act of wearing clothing commonly associated with the other gender within a particular society."

Those three highlighted words are key to my question. Skipping "clothing", consider what "gender" means within a particular "society". The very phrasing of the definition implies just two genders. But what if there are multiple genders? And what happens if these multiple genders are defined not as a continuum, but rather n-dimensionally?

It would seem that if the latter were the case, then what we wear would always conform to the gender we actually were. That is, what we term as crossdressers, males wearing female clothing, may actually be wearing clothing appropriate to their *other* gender.

Just some thoughts. Any comments?

[PaulaJaneThomas]

Wear what makes you happy.

[Karren H]

Definate it how ever your want and call it what you like... It doesn't really matter to me because I just call it fun!!

[Nicole Brown]

I had an appointment with my therapist yesterday and due to a business commitment I attended this session in drab, for better than the past 8 months Nicole has always attended. During the session my therapist commented that he wasn't use to see my as my other self and had to get use to talking with me instead of with Nicole.

To this comment from him I replied, Why haven't you ever dealt with a cross dresser before? I then explained that I felt as if I was cross dressing because I was out in male clothing.

Nicole

[Cathytg]

"n-dimensional" That's a neat term. But how is it different from a set of discrete points along a continuum?

However, be that as it may, if you watched the National Geographic program on gender, you would be certain that gender is not, as their narrator put it, "binary". In fact, they discussed a group in India which is considered to be a "third Gender". Interestingly enough, this group was comprised of biological males dressing and acting as females. Are they cross dressing? I think so.

So, you raise a very good point. Is a genetic woman cross dressing in a dress? We would all say "no". Is a genetic man cross dressing in a dress? We would all say "yes". But these are extremes on a very familiar continuum. What about the points in between where the distinction between male and female is not so clear? What about an inter-sexed child (has both sex organs) who is raised as a girl; is she cross dressing in a dress? What if another inter-sexed child is raised as a boy but wears a dress?

What, then, is cross dressing? There was time when I thought I knew the answer. Now I am not so sure. Here is my best guess:

Teacher: Now, class, who can tell me what crossdressing is?

64 yr. old pupil: Cross dressing occurs when an individual, usually a male, wears clothing that is typical of a gender opposite that which he or she typically presents.

That definition is not objective by any means; it hinges upon the lifestyle of the individual. It says that, if you have spent your life primarily in drab, then when you wear a dress, you are cross dressing. On the other hand, if you are presenting as a woman 24/7 and have been doing so for such a long time that you have become totally accepted and identified as being a woman, then you are not cross dressing any longer.

So, that's my answer to the question. It is an excellent question. Thank you.

[Byllie]

So, that's my answer to the question. It is an excellent question. Thank you.

And an excellent answer it is; thank you.

[Kate Simmons]

We use it as a convenient term/description but it really depends on the person when it is or isn't. You can't sum up a dynamic human being with one or two words.

[Frédérique]

According to Wikipedia, Crossdressing is defined as "the act of wearing clothing commonly associated with the other gender within a particular society."
Those three highlighted words are key to my question. Skipping "clothing", consider what "gender" means within a particular "society". The very phrasing of the definition implies just two genders. But what if there are multiple genders? And what happens if these multiple genders are defined not as a continuum, but rather n-dimensionally?
It would seem that if the latter were the case, then what we wear would always conform to the gender we actually were. That is, what we term as crossdressers, males wearing female clothing, may actually be wearing clothing appropriate to their *other* gender.

[SIZE="2"]What planet are you from, Byllie? Seriously, I know what you’re getting at. I don’t see what I do as crossdressing pre se – it’s really only dressing, isn’t it? The clothes I prefer to wear are appropriate for my particular gender (in this particular dimension). It all seems simple and natural to me. The problem is, nobody in “society” sees it that way – the structural framework of life imposed on us from outside sources tends to exclude enlightened beings like us, and we marginalized souls have to look at life from the outside. That can have its benefits, you know…

I must say, Byllie, anybody who looks things up in Wikipedia is OK with me -- would you like a cookie, dear? [/SIZE]

[Byllie]

[SIZE=2] I must say, Byllie, anybody who looks things up in Wikipedia is OK with me -- would you like a cookie, dear? [/SIZE]

Thanks, but I'm on a diet.

Seriously, this is exactly the sort of discussion I was looking for. And now for the main reason to bring it up. If this forum *is* all encompassing, then why is there no area within for what society calls (oh how I hate the term) gender-queer? Actually I prefer intergender. We have sections for MtF, FtM, and TS, but *not* for IG. I've always been at odds posting in the MtF section as that *seems* the closest fit for me, but then again it's not a true match.

[trannie T]

Each one of us defines gender by our own rules. Our defination of gender changes from ime to time and place to place as our opinions, experiences and knowledge evolve.

[Samantha43]

There are males and there are females in all societies. It's determined by what type of plumbing you have. Each society has clothing that is generally accepted for each sex. If you cross those lines, it's considered "crossdressing". Seems pretty black and white to me.

I have one gender.....male.
I like to cross the line and wear clothing that my society has determined is feminine.
This makes me a crossdresser.

[meri]

I think the wiki definition is too wide and too encompassing. By that definition most men and women are or have been at some time crossdressers. We *know* that can't be true, hence, I propose to add a wee bit to the definition, that is, it is crossdressing if in addition to wearing the clothing of the other gender, they are also attempting to appear as the other gender. In the instance of M->F CDing, this includes breast forms, wigs, makeup and clothing. The person is for all intents and purposes attempting to present as a person of the other gender.

Now, by this definition, for a woman to crossdress, she would need, in addition to her male clothing, need to strap down her breasts to flatten them, wear no makeup, do her hair up in a male-like fashion and perhaps add facial hair.

Thus, a guy in a skirt, nylons, heels and blouse is not a crossdresser anymore than a gal in jeans and a flannel shirt.

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As to the question of how many genders there are, if you take gender as "how you feel about yourself", then clearly, it's a continuum and 'n' pretty much describes it. If you take a more traditional definition of gender, then there are generally two with some biological weirdness that occasionally produces someone who doesn't clearly fit in either camp.

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But, hey, why all these definitions? The moment you attempt to define yourself, you but yourself into a box limit who you are. This is especially true if now that you think you have found your "box", you alter your behavior to conform to the rules of that particular box. For example, defining yourself as "gay" apparently carries a particular set of rules, perhaps even a subculture along with it. Gays exhibit behavior, such as their manner of speech, that must have been learned and adopted. They (and probably members of other types of groups) probably adopt the behavior of the group to provide them with self-identity and ultimately safety. The curious thing is, by doing this, they also limit themselves and cut themselves off from other opportunities or activities.

My personal approach is to resist all attempts at defining who or what I am. It's hard to do because we are conditioned to label things including ourselves. However, I have found that it's very liberating once achieved.

Resist identification, resist being a member of some group and especially resist adopting the group's behaviors, mannerisms, etc. Stand on your own two feet and face the world by yourself, look at the world with your own two eyes.

Someone on this site has a Popeye quote, Popeye clearing being one of the greatest philosophers of all time:

"I Yam What I Yam".

Live by it.

[Elle1946]

To me the real issue is, SOCIETY. A lot of people can not accept others as who they are, as opposed to what others think we should be.

[wetlook crossdresser]

Hi Byllie, I consider myself as androgynous as I embrace some feminine traits not only in dress but in behaviour in an equal footing with my male side which is my sex as well. As far as clothing is concerned, 95% of it is women's wear from thrift shops. I rarely wear men's clothing anymore as I find it undesirable because it is not usually as comfortable eventhough the fabrics can be similar and sometimes the shape of a woman's garment doesn't hang as well on my body. I'm getting better at finding more suitable, well fitting, and much more diverse women's clothing than men's stuff. I mostly wear unisex looking lady's slacks, shorts, and tops when out on the street. I have narrow feet and find women's oxford type narrower last shoes both more comfortable and appropriate for one who definitely looks like a man (I sport a short beard and mustache). So I am taking advantage of the best of both worlds. By the way, I wear my dresses and skirts either at home or at this very accepting indoor public pool nearby. These are my favourite outerwear garments because they are so comfortable. Am I a crossdresser? By most people's standards, I believe yes and I have no problem with that but I truly regard myself as a man who likes fashion freedom without making my body appearance look like a woman's. If only most people around us could accept us for who we really are and would like to present ourselves without polarizing the genders and limiting the options of dress and appearance. Cheers! Chris

[sherri52]

If it were men that wore dresses all along then I wouldn't be a crossdresser. I would just like what I'm wearing

[pattyv]

I like Samantha's definition.

[michelle1980]

The same argument can be made about the clothing itself.

Sure a skirt is designed for wear by a woman but when a man buys it and wears it, does it cease being woman's garment?

Hell they make boy cut shorts and underwear for women, can men go out and purchase and wear them without crossdressing?

It doesn't matter what the definition of crossdressing is, when it comes down to it it's the interpretation and reaction from society in general that rules many (not all) of our actions.

Though I do like the n-dimensional idea of gender. Is it possible that a male who likes to wear female clothing is a different type of man? Good discussion point.

[Cheshire Gummi]

When is crossdressing not crossdressing?

When it's ajar! Wait... that's a door. *rimshot*

Cross-dressing is just a term invented to connote abstractions in socially defined gender fluidity. It is not crossdressing when the sex of the individual is conducive to their socially acceptable style of dress or behavior and, while there is some overlap, those two are quite clearly defined. Men here, women here.

I, personally, do not agree with our social gender definitions, but I believe we are all aware of them, yes? I know I am. It's impossible to rebel against something you cannot identify.

[AndroRemi]

I personally don't fret very much about defining what I do to people. I explain it pretty plainly when asked; I have male days, and I have female days. When I wake up in the morning as I'm getting ready for the day I'll just feel like dressing a certain way, and I act on that feeling. If they insist that it's crossdressing, then fine, I'm a crossdresser. As long as I'm happy with what I'm doing (and I most certainly am) I couldn't care less what it's called.

[JenniferZ2009]

Byllie,

If there are multiple genders and it sounds like you are speaking from a multi-verse point of view. If there are n-dimensional modes of gender then yes whatever a person is wearing at that time is the proper attire for that gender.

Given that in a n-dimensional multi-verse any possible combination of evens has happened and thus whatever may be highly improbable in this dimension is not unlikely in another.

Which would mean that wearing a trashbag and gluing a ribbon on your left arm is the traditional dress for a central European woman in one of the dimensions.