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Thread: Some thoughts on why we do or do not pass

  1. #1
    Member Michaella's Avatar
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    Some thoughts on why we do or do not pass

    There has been much discussion and speculation as to why we do or do not pass. Often this deals with what factors in the cd’s appearance work as male or female cues, what might be key elements in appearing to be female, and the role one’s confidence plays. I would like to discuss another factor, the observer, and what they bring to it.

    Recently I went out a number of times dressed femme, and there were no problems for me. I don’t suggest I was not read—indeed as I will relate I certainly was at times—but it was very interesting to see when I was read and when I was not, and it got me thinking about why it did or did not happen.

    On a Saturday afternoon I went into a budget store, the kind that carries all sorts of goods, but only things that are sold quite cheaply. I had purchased some inexpensive but quite nice lingerie there, and thought I’d drop by and see what else they had. I saw some bustiers, but I could not reach them to look at the size labels. I went to the only staff person there, a young woman, and asked for help. My voice is not very convincing I’m sure, I just speak more softly and in a slightly higher pitch, and I know some people would say I don’t look nearly feminine enough to pass, but the fact is there was not even the slightest hint of hesitation, that look of “oh, what am I seeing here? Oh, right,” that we all know. She got a long hook, took down the bustiers and looked through them for me. I bought them, done.

    I then walked to the store right next door, a very small wig shop, where there were two staff people, both middle aged women, sitting, looking bored, and not another customer. One immediately asked me what I was looking for, saying “a wig? for Hallowe’en?” Now they were polite and helpful (though I did not buy anything) but their reaction told me I was certainly read.

    So, what made the difference? Same time, same general situation, and same person in the same outfit, shopping for strictly feminine items. The difference was in the observers. The first woman was busy, in a large store, trying to keep an eye on many things and moving about briskly. She had only one thing on her mind, serve this customer, and move on to the next task. She simply was not interested in me as anything else. The women in the second store were interested in me because I was the only thing of interest happening in the store. Being interested they automatically looked more closely and saw who I was.

    Now extend this to other situations and people: some members have noted that teenage girls are very quick to spot a crossdresser. It is because, as someone pointed out, they are very interested in gender, and in style, so they look, and they see. But sometimes they don’t look. Why not? Once I was in a record store and bought some CDs (the musical kind). At the cash was a very young woman, but she was not interested in me at all. I could see she was bored to tears with her job, looking around the store for anyone or anything that was of interest. She took a quick glance at me, saw a middle-aged woman with no style that she would ever consider, and looked away, not interested.

    Children are quick to spot crossdressers we know. It is not because they are experienced in the world and can easily see what is male or female. Quite the contrary, it is because they have little experience of the world, but very much want to understand it, so they look carefully at everything, trying to make sense of it. They are interested.
    Adult women, in their 30’s to 50’s more or less, might be very interested in seeing other women’s clothing styles, so they look carefully, or they may not. Watch: you are more likely to be observed closely, and read, by a woman who is herself more stylishly dressed, because she is more interested in your clothes than a woman who is not so fashion-conscious. If she sees something that interests her, for good or bad, then she might look more closely at your clothes; then she might see you.

    In any given situation, there can be people with different levels of interest in what they see. I went to the opera last week, and that was great because I got to dress up a bit more than usual. If you can’t dress up at the opera where can you? Some women go to the opera to see and be seen, and they might be very interested, unless they have the attitude that they are the ones to be seen, and why should they look at anyone else? So some will look at you while some will not, all in the same situation, seeing the same you in the same dress. (In my case: black satin slim skirt, iridescent blue blouse, black stockings, black patent heels, blue nail polish, by the way.)

    At a sort of reception event before a film a man came up to me and started chatting. From the talk he clearly knew I was a crossdresser, and I knew he was gay. We had a pleasant talk, but all around us were many people not paying the slightest attention to us, not even that second glance at me. I don’t think they were interested; they were socializing and drinking and looking at photos on display. My conversationalist may well have been looking for another gay male, so he was interested in looking at others, so he looked closely for cues, and saw me, when most others were not interested and did not see. (He was wrong about that, by the way.) And I grant it is probable that a number of people in that particular crowd read me but did not react because they were the sort of people who simply do not care about gender roles and whether a man wants to wear feminine clothes. Which is perfectly fine by me.

    So that’s my point, that what makes a lot of difference is what interest level the observer brings to the situation. We talk about confidence and how that makes a difference. How would that work? Well, if you are lacking confidence you send out signals that make people take an interest in you. While if you are confident, you send out a signal that says “oh, you can look at me if you like, but whether you do or don’t does not matter to me.” So, many won’t bother to look more closely. It is not rudeness, just a way of deciding what to pay attention to or not as they deal with the usual massive sensory input. Of course any obvious clues to masculinity—a bit of beard growth, a clumsy walk in heels, a slightly rougher voice—all make the observer more interested. A woman can have any of these, and people will look more closely, and decide she is nonetheless a woman. A crossdresser can have only a single “flaw” and the closer look leads to enough information to draw the different conclusion. That is why blending in is so important to passing. But the variable will often be the observer. If they are not interested to begin with for some inherent or situational reason, or if they get nothing back from us to pique their interest further, they are that much less likely to look further, and less likely to see us as crossdressers.

    Does this make sense? Does it help?

    Michaella

  2. #2
    Diamond Member Persephone's Avatar
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    Excellent analysis, Michaella! Thank you for your very carefully written, thought provoking post.

    The observer may also be conditioned by acceptance by others. If everyone else seems to be paying no particular attention to you, they won't either. If someone stands on a busy streetcorner and stares up at the sky, pretty soon others will begin to stare upward as well.

    That's one reason that being with a GG usually seems to promote acceptance. If the two of you are walking along, chatting as two women, observers will "accept" her validation of your status as their own.

    Initial perception, which is something we can definitely attempt to control by how we dress and move and so on, also makes a huge difference. For example, I try to avoid talking where I can't be seen. In the Ladies' Room I will try my best not to get into a chat with a stranger in another stall because she can't see me and will form her initial perception from my rather masculine voice.

    But if someone sees a woman and then hears a voice that is a bit too masculine, they are more likely to think "She has a deep voice."
    "If you are living the life you want to live you've successfully transitioned to being the person you want to be." - Eryn.

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  3. #3
    Lady By Choice Leslie Langford's Avatar
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    Michaela, I totally agree with everything...

    ...that you have said here, as it essentially mirrors very similar observations which I made in my post entitled "Shopping "en femme" keeps getting better and better all the time..." that I submitted the other day to the "Clothing, Accessories, and Shopping Talk" section.

    The only other point that I would want to emphasize again is the importance of dressing appropriately for whichever venue one is going to - not only to blend in, but also to show the GG's around you that you are looking to emulate them and not appear to be mocking them by dressing in some "over the top" manner. Having gained some considerable experience in this area over the last couple of years, I would tend to agree with those forum members who have said all along that blending in is far more important than actually "passing". Once one has mastered the art of blending in, the "passing" part becomes almost an afterthought because like beauty, it is strictly in the eyes of the beholder.

  4. #4
    A California Girl Rachel Morley's Avatar
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    Hi Michaella,

    Thanks for such a detailed well thought out post. I agree that the observer is a big variable on how and when we'll get read. IMHO I think that people tend to just look at others anyway, not because they're looking because they're looking for something specific, just because they're unconsciously looking at people. I know I do it all the time.

    This being said, you're right that (if you care that people are going to read you) one should try not to look or do, or say anything that might draw attention to ourselves. I've found though that actually getting read can be a good thing. If you get read and nothing bad happens it actually gives you more confidence and as we all know more confidences leads to not being read as much. So there's the paradox, getting read "can" actually lead to not getting read ... if you don't let it affect you
    .
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  5. #5
    Female Illusionist! docrobbysherry's Avatar
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    Well, I have ONE suggestion:

    Something I discovered at the SCC.
    Take OFF YOUR MASKS if u want to pass!

    U can interpret that any way u like!
    U can't keep doing the same things over and over and expect to enjoy life to the max. When u try new things, even if they r out of your comfort zone, u may experience new excitement and growth that u never expected.

    Challenge yourself and pursue your passions! When your life clock runs out, you'll have few or NO REGRETS!

  6. #6
    Miss Conception Karren H's Avatar
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    Personally I don't really care if people know I crossdress but for me it's 90% attitude and 10% looks.... Even the most manly looking woman passes as a woman because she has this attitude that says she belongs there dresed as she is.... and if you can project that same type of attitude then no one will pay you a second (closer) look...... Yo basically take you reality and project it on others...
    Current Obsession - Breasts and Lingerie!

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  7. #7
    [Gender]Androgen[/Gender] lemonlover's Avatar
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    I didn't understand something.
    Is being "read" means they know you are male?

  8. #8
    Aspiring Member Blaire's Avatar
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    The art of camoflage depends on two things: your ability to blend in, and others ability to pick you out.

    The more off-kilter your style the easier you are to pick out. The more you call attention to yourself, the easier you are to pick out.

    The less background noise there is, the easier you are to pick out. The more observant or caring the audience is, the easier you are to pick out.

    It then makes sense that if you're dressed appropriately for where you're going, and happen to have a crowd along with you... good odds for not getting noticed, or if noticed, not picked out. There's just too much going on.

    If you're a 50 something, dressed as a 50-something hockey fan, you won't get a second look at the ice rink - even if there's 30,000 other people looking right at you on the Jumbotron hanging in the middle of the rink.

    If you're a 50-something, dressed as a 20-something street walker walking into Tiffany's, I bet you'll get more than a few odd looks - each one of which will pick you out without any problems.

    The girl at the department store had lots going on, probably didn't care, and wasn't going to get anything extra on her paycheck if you bought anything. No problem.

    The lady at the wig store wasn't busy, you were the only customer, and I'd bet that she was on commissioned sales so she paid attention to you. Tag!
    Last edited by Blaire; 10-20-2009 at 02:55 AM.
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  9. #9
    The Girl Next Door windycissy's Avatar
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    You are 100% right, confidence is everything...funny you mentioned your wig store experience, I always feel self-conscious when I enter a wig store to buy wig shampoo, etc. because the odds of a customer in a wig store being a crossdresser are way higher than the odds of a woman in a department store being a crossdresser! Anyway you're right about another thing too, if you stick to places where everyone is busy and preoccupied with their own lives, your chances of getting noticed are much lower, like riding public transportation during rush hour, even though somebody's likey to sit down next to you, chances are they won't give you a second glance, but if there's only one other person on the train, you're gonna get looked at!

  10. #10
    Isn't Life Grand? AllieSF's Avatar
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    Excellent well tought out post. I agree with all of it, plus what Karren said. If you prject yourself confidently and dont's "give a damn", people will first look at you as a woman, and then maybe think about what they just saw and maybe recognize some of your non-feminine features, and then again, maybe not. For me once the prep work is done, the face in on, then I am on. I never look back and plan on enjoying my outing whether I get a run in my nylons or not. I just keep checking that my hair that it is fairly neat and make sure that my lipstick is pretty, and then try to remember to make sure that there is no toilet paper stuck to my shoe when leaving the ladies room!

  11. #11
    Member Barbara918's Avatar
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    I've had this discussion with CDs before -- I say it depends on how you define passing.
    If it's "I'm a man, out in public, dressed in women's clothes, and nobody knows" then I absolutely do not pass.
    If it's "I'm a man, out in public, dressed in women's clothes, and nobody minds" then I absolutely do pass.

  12. #12
    Member ggtracy's Avatar
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    Excellent post.

  13. #13
    Aspiring Member shannonsilk's Avatar
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    I have probably noticed all of this myself, but you have all done a great job of putting it in words.
    One place people look at you, whether it is crowded or not, is the local friday night club. Since it is a meeting place, people want to know who they might want to meet.


    Quote Originally Posted by Barbara918 View Post
    If it's "I'm a man, out in public, dressed in women's clothes, and nobody knows" then I absolutely do not pass.
    If it's "I'm a man, out in public, dressed in women's clothes, and nobody minds" then I absolutely do pass.
    I think my idea of passing, and maybe what others are saying, is "I'm a man, dressed in women's clothes, and nobody notices."

  14. #14
    Sometimes Clueless Laurie A's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shannonsilk View Post
    I have probably noticed all of this myself, but you have all done a great job of putting it in words.
    One place people look at you, whether it is crowded or not, is the local friday night club. Since it is a meeting place, people want to know who they might want to meet.




    I think my idea of passing, and maybe what others are saying, is "I'm a man, dressed in women's clothes, and nobody notices."
    Or maybe you are successful at passing if:
    1. No one notices, or
    2. You don't care if anyone notices

  15. #15
    Aspiring Member Violetgray's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barbara918 View Post
    I've had this discussion with CDs before -- I say it depends on how you define passing.
    If it's "I'm a man, out in public, dressed in women's clothes, and nobody knows" then I absolutely do not pass.
    If it's "I'm a man, out in public, dressed in women's clothes, and nobody minds" then I absolutely do pass.
    If nobody minds, then you are being accepted. People have to know that you are different, in order to decide whether to care or not.

  16. #16
    Valerie's_Online's Wife Ariadne GG's Avatar
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    Very interesting topic! I would also add that it might depend on where the observer was raised. Myself, I think I would have a difficult time 'reading' most of the ladies in this group.
    I'm from a small town in the North. The women rarely wear make-up, can be quite stocky, and shape is difficult to tell when bundled up. Also, it's just not something I'd be used to seeing so it wouldn't be my first thought.
    Val, however was raised in California- the bay area, and can spot anything.
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  17. #17
    Silver Member Amy Lynn3's Avatar
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    I understand what you are saying. Some days at the Mall I am looking at every woman there, but if I am in a hurry and have other things on my mind I don't notice them. I know they are there, but I don't check their cloths or other dress out.

  18. #18
    Aspiring Member dilane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karren Hutton View Post
    Personally I don't really care if people know I crossdress but for me it's 90% attitude and 10% looks.... Even the most manly looking woman passes as a woman because she has this attitude that says she belongs there dresed as she is.... and if you can project that same type of attitude then no one will pay you a second (closer) look...... Yo basically take you reality and project it on others...
    I agree with Karen that attitude is very important as a way of overcoming physical imperfections.

    I have a three-level concept of passing:

    Level 1: not being noticed
    Having nobody give you a second glance means you're not drawing any attention. This isn't really passing, it's just not causing alarm .

    This is where being shorter or slender is a big advantage. However, even with a decent body, you're going to draw attention in a millisecond if you move like a big lunk (which imo, many, many CD's do).

    But if you're 6'2" and 215#, you're going to get attention that a 5'7" 135# person isn't. So if you get singled out, congratulations, go to level 2...

    Level 2: Surviving a cursory visual inspection

    I'm 5'8" and 145 ish, so I don't draw that much attention, and I move reasonably well. However, I don't have a femme facial structure, so I'll occasionally get looked in the eye and up and down by women. I always return a confident smile or look. The slightest anxiety will be detected. This always causes them to either smile back and look away, or just to move on with a blank expression. (Just move along, nothing happening here, ma'am)

    Women are generally excellent at reading facial expressions; any doubt will be detected. Women also have a vocabulary of expressions that men don't. If you can signal your confidence in your facial expression, you'll often get by level 2.

    Level 2 is where most reads take place, this is where heads turn, and teenaged girls start giggling or announcing their discovery to their friends.

    Level 3: Conversation

    If you get this far, congratulations . This is where voice and confidence are king. If you have a decent voice, this can put you over the top. However, voice is really voice + inflections + facial expressions + word choice + body language + attitude. This is the Olympics of passing. If you get through this, please move over to the Stealth TG discussion area

    GG's do this unconsciously, but it's devilishly difficult if you've been living the Guy life for many years.

    It's easier to pass level 3 with guys than with women.

    I could go to higher levels, but I want to keep this family friendly

    One other point: If you're just about perfect, you can get by with a mannish voice. I've known a TS or two who are short, small boned, and have good faces. Visually they pass perfectly, but their voices leave a lot to be desired. Yet they have zero problems. One of them has since developed a good femme voice.
    Last edited by dilane; 10-20-2009 at 02:29 PM.

  19. #19
    Outdoor girl seeking..... Sam-antha's Avatar
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    It is to my mind, all about continuing attention to femm detail and confidence that you have overlooked nothing.
    After that it is your attitude to your public.
    Facial expressions and walk do play a fairly important part, but I am not too sure about the voice area, providing it is not deeeep.
    Anyway, for me it is about being out enjoying myself and passing too of course.

    ~Samm

  20. #20
    Fab Karen Fab Karen's Avatar
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    To those obsessed with their size and their voice, I remind that the star of "Throw Momma from the Train" is a woman.
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  21. #21
    Complex Lolita...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michaella
    That is why blending in is so important to passing. But the variable will often be the observer. If they are not interested to begin with for some inherent or situational reason, or if they get nothing back from us to pique their interest further, they are that much less likely to look further, and less likely to see us as crossdressers.
    [SIZE="2"]Blending in is my goal, in fact it is the key to the entire enterprise, especially for a shy type like me. I find that most people don’t know what they’re looking at most of the time, and nobody pays close attention to detail, so one can play with this widespread visual illiteracy and do all sorts of things. Advertisers, the US government, and conspiracy theorists do this all the time, so why can’t we?

    I can blend in even in this part of the country, if I know when and where to do it. I mean, I notice women wearing skirts or dresses now and then, but I’m intentionally looking for such rare spectacular visions. In most circumstances, I would stick out in a forest of shorts and T-shirts, and it would be impossible to blend in. It’s a paradox – I want to pass by blending in, but I want to dress contrary to the norm, returning to a different time and place when my way of dressing was the norm. It’s fun to try…

    Walking around all dressed up with another woman would help immensely, as long as she has made an effort to match your level of dress. Here in Kansas I could blend in as a (married) Mennonite lady, since they are numerous and highly visible, but there’s only one problem – you can’t wear any make-up… [/SIZE]


    I went to the opera last week, and that was great because I got to dress up a bit more than usual.
    [SIZE="2"]Which opera did you see? I’ve been to a few myself…[/SIZE]

  22. #22
    Senior Member Rebecca Jayne's Avatar
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    I would rather go out unnoticed all the time, anytime,anywhere,
    male or female than have a spotlight on me with a parade band behind me.

    The best disguise is one that no one knows you are wearing.

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  23. #23
    Platinum Member Charleen's Avatar
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    I keep 'em guessing! Just went to the grocery store. I went fully underdressed which shows off my B's, nice blouse, jeans, tennies, 6 rings, sparkle pink polish on the nails hoop earrings, a touch of lipstick, mascara, and a little eye shadow. At the check-out, after I paid, the young girl said thank you and have a nice day ...er...... I said you also and walked out.
    Comfortable in my own skin.

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  24. #24
    Diamond Member Persephone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dilane View Post
    I agree with Karen that attitude is very important as a way of overcoming physical imperfections.

    I have a three-level concept of passing:

    Level 1: not being noticed

    Level 2: Surviving a cursory visual inspection

    Level 3: Conversation
    Excellent! Close Encounters of the Third Kind?
    "If you are living the life you want to live you've successfully transitioned to being the person you want to be." - Eryn.

    "If you truly care about me you should damn well want for me what I want for myself" - Michael Westen (Burn Notice)

    -.-. --.-/-.-. --.-/-.-. -../ Persephone™ and Persephone™ are trademarks of Persephone herself, accept no substitutes. The terms "en femme" and "en drab" originated with Marcia Sampson/Staylace (OBM).

  25. #25
    Member Michaella's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaulaJaneThomas View Post
    Who's we? Don't include me in your group. You've never met me or seen a photo of me. You know nothing about me including how well or not I pass.

    Please, I meant no offense. There are a number of members who do go out and have expressed themselves on the issue of passing, so I saw this as a matter of interest to many. I did not intend any comment on any particular individual, for you are indeed correct: I do not know you at all, nor any other member. I was writing for those who would consider themselves an audience for what I had to say. If you choose to not consider yourself included in that then by all means you have that right. I am sorry for any misunderstanding.

    Michaella

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