Why the desire to pass?

[sherri]

I like you Sherri!! You talk my language.

Why thank you sweetie!

I like the term transgender as the umbrella. I always delineated it like this:

1. Transgender - One who does not conform to the gender norms of the larger society.
2. Crossdresser - Wears some or all the clothing of the opposite gender. Also falls under the term transgendner.
3. Transvestite - Wears the clothes and assumes the appearance of the opposite gender. Also falls under the terms transgendner and crossdresser.
4. Transsexual - Assumes the dress, appearance, and physiology (to some degree) of the opposite gender. Also falls under the terms transgendner, crossdresser, and transvestite.

Is this a good delineation?

Hmm, well it's pretty close. In the parlance of academia and behavioral scientists, I think the terms crossdresser and transvestite are used interchangeably. I suppose the term crossdresser would be more appropriate for someone who only wears panties or skirts or whatever, whereas transvestites nearly always go for full emulation, but the latter term doesn't seem to be very popular with TGs these days, I presume because of the negative connotations associated with its use in general society. So crossdresser is prolly more PC, and TG even better (imo). And while a transsexual is a form of transgender, I regard TS as distinct from CD and TV, both in character and degree.

But none of that matters much to me. I'll answer to just about anything ... except sir.

[Stephenie S]

Hmm. I'm not sure I want to get involved in this at all.

BUT . . . I don't wear makeup, I don't wear wigs, and I don't wear a bra when I can get away with it, either. I AM a feminist. And I don't worry about "passing" (Oh how I dislike that word). But I suspect that we have very different outlooks.

I am not celebrating my maleness at all. If anything, I am rejoicing in my femaleness.

This just shows you what a wonderful diversity we have on this forum.

Lovies,
Stephenie

[sherri]

[SIZE=2]I also like to be perceived as a crossdresser, and not an actual female, mainly because I find the whole idea to be fascinating, beautiful, and at odds with what I’m supposed to be. Also, dressing allows me to bring a pleasurable state of mind forward, to the surface, where it can do the most good. [/SIZE]

That is very well put. There is a certain serenity to the way Freddy thinks.

[Kate Simmons]

Since when does one need a reason Toni?

[Hope]

Its a strait forward question with a relatively simple answer.

I try to pass because I want to be seen as and be accepted as a woman, not a freak, not a guy in a dress, as a woman.

I'm not trying to mess with people's minds, I'm not trying to get off, I'm not trying to get away with something, I am just trying to be myself - a woman in the world. And if I don't pass, or at least make a significant effort (significant enough to be accepted even when I don't pass) I fail.

[karynspanties]

Its a strait forward question with a relatively simple answer.

I try to pass because I want to be seen as and be accepted as a woman, not a freak, not a guy in a dress, as a woman.

I'm not trying to mess with people's minds, I'm not trying to get off, I'm not trying to get away with something, I am just trying to be myself - a woman in the world. And if I don't pass, or at least make a significant effort (significant enough to be accepted even when I don't pass) I fail.

I have to say I feel the same way. I unfortunately do not pass. When I take my time and really try, I am quite acceptable. I wish I could pass. I did when I was younger, thinner and could use my own hair, but now middle age has set in and those days are long gone.

[MyBlackTights]

I think one of the reasons id like to "pass" is so i can wear whatever I want, a guy w/ a beard wearing a mini skirt, tights and heels sure turns some heads. Im very happy w/ who I am, just wish I could dress any dam way I want without taking so much shi* from people in this socitey, so for now as far as I get going out in public dressed as I please are my kilts.

[AlanaBCD]

Reading the posts since mine, I would like to add something. I love the beauty of femininity. I want to experience that, by having others see that in me, and by seeing and feeling that in myself.

[Rebecca Jayne]

Not wanting to pass or even make an attempt.

Not me.

[tonixd]

I don't wear makeup, I don't wear wigs, and I don't wear a bra when I can get away with it, either. I AM a feminist. And I don't worry about "passing" (Oh how I dislike that word). But I suspect that we have very different outlooks.

This just shows you what a wonderful diversity we have on this forum.

... but the latter term doesn't seem to be very popular with TGs these days, I presume because of the negative connotations associated with its use in general society.

Yeah. I agree. I think we need new terminology. Who's with me?

Since when does one need a reason Toni?

Lol... We all have reasons, Denise, even if we have to soul search to find them.

I try to pass because I want to be seen as and be accepted as a woman, not a freak, not a guy in a dress, as a woman.

I'm not trying to mess with people's minds, I'm not trying to get off, I'm not trying to get away with something, I am just trying to be myself - a woman in the world. And if I don't pass, or at least make a significant effort (significant enough to be accepted even when I don't pass) I fail.

*clears throat*

Hope, Hope, Hope. You just made my point! Even if you are a guy in a dress, [SIZE="3"]you are not a freak![/SIZE] Now, in my personal opinion, and I think the opinion of the larger crappy culture in which we find ourselves, passing is seen as trying to 'get away with something.'

And, on top of that, you'd be amazed with how accepted I am as a male in a skirt. I don't call myself a 'guy' necessarily, but we should have the right to be 'guys in skirts' if we want to.

I'm not saying that trying to pass is wrong or strange, but, at the same time, you don't have to pass to be the woman you want to be!

You can be a male and a woman. You can be a female and a man. You can be a transmale and a cisgender. These arbitrary combinations are social constructs which we have to unite to break.

Not wanting to pass or even make an attempt..

[SIZE="2"]I also like to be perceived as a crossdresser, and not an actual female, mainly because I find the whole idea to be fascinating, beautiful, and at odds with what I’m supposed to be.[/SIZE]

I like that post alot.

[Bettyann303]

Passing is the ultimate test, no?

[tonixd]

Passing is the ultimate test, no?

What are we testing?

[Kitty Sue]

Passing is a by-product of the goal I set for myself. I think women are beautiful, and it's just a beauty that I want for myself.

Just so happens, women pass as women.

I can totally I.D with this. I love the way you put it, although for me passing does not include my voice. I quite happily banter about with my man voice.

[Cheshire Gummi]

I'm probably not the best person to answer this question, since I'm in the middle of really deciding who I am, but I think it stems from the desire to escape the paradigm.

When you're a crossdresser, there are certain preconceived notions and roles that just naturally follow you around. They stem from social conditioning. The desire to be seen directly as what you portray is not always just vanity, but the desire to shed those ridiculous pretenses.

I, myself, am slowly starting to drift away from my desire to be seen as anything. Perhaps that is for the best...

[CherylFlint]

mental image of being a female + physical image of being a female = passing
The ability to "pass" is the same as getting an A+ on a subject in school. Look at it this way, the least difficult hurdle a man has to overcome to be taken for a woman is by dressing as one. Other ways include posture and speech.
The ability to pass is indeed the Holy Grail of crossdressers because it is by that barometer that we are thought of as a female, which is exactly the way we think of ourselves to be. Having others, be they male or female, view us as women is what our goal is, simply because that is who we are, we are females in a male body.
To be viewed by others (who do not know us) as a female is the highest compliment we can hope to expect. When one "passes" for the first time the thrill is one that you'll always remember with total satisfaction.
I do think that the desire to "pass" should be the goal of every crossdresser, it really is that important.

[JiveTurkeyOnRye]

Toni,

Even though I think you and I share a similar mindset in our crossdressing, I answer your question the same way I did Sherry's about why don't we pass?

What's to get? For some people there's a desire that we don't share. Neither is the right or wrong way to do it, it's just a personal thing. We don't need to understand their need to do it because it works for them just like what we do works for us.

[tonixd]

We don't need to understand their need to do it because it works for them just like what we do works for us.

I like most of what you said. I don't think that it is a right or a wrong. I stated that alot. I don't think it's wrong or weird or strange; I just don't understand it.

I disagree with you on the understanding part. If I can understand it, I can defend it all the more to those who would attack my sisters, and that I won't stand for.

Knowledge and understanding are the only weapons against bigotry and oppression.

[sherri]

And, on top of that, you'd be amazed with how accepted I am as a male in a skirt. I don't call myself a 'guy' necessarily, but we should have the right to be 'guys in skirts' if we want to.

And that's as it should be. Perfectly valid and embraceable in my book.

Yeah. I agree. I think we need new terminology. Who's with me?

That is why, if I really gave a rip about such things, I suppose I would choose the term transgender -- for both of us.

Passing is the ultimate test, no?

mental image of being a female + physical image of being a female = passing
The ability to "pass" is the same as getting an A+ on a subject in school. Look at it this way, the least difficult hurdle a man has to overcome to be taken for a woman is by dressing as one. Other ways include posture and speech.
The ability to pass is indeed the Holy Grail of crossdressers because it is by that barometer that we are thought of as a female, which is exactly the way we think of ourselves to be. Having others, be they male or female, view us as women is what our goal is, simply because that is who we are, we are females in a male body.
To be viewed by others (who do not know us) as a female is the highest compliment we can hope to expect. When one "passes" for the first time the thrill is one that you'll always remember with total satisfaction.
I do think that the desire to "pass" should be the goal of every crossdresser, it really is that important.

This too is perfectly valid. It may not be realistic for many of us, but it is no less a legitimate desire. I have no problem with interacting with you on that basis and do not doubt that I would think of you in precisely those terms. It would be my pleasure. I do, however, take issue with the blanket statement that passing should be everyone's goal. That just ain't so.

I don't know that I have a holy grail, but if I did I suppose it would be to love the person I see in the mirror, and socially, to successfully experience interactions and forge relationships in which I am accepted, even appreciated and loved, for who and what I am. And what I am is a person first and foremost, and beyond that, a person born male but with pronounced feminine traits that mean a great deal to me, that I am quite comfortable with, that define me as much as any other characteristics. It is not important to me to persuade people that I'm something I'm not, and one thing I'm not is a genetic female. I am only female by disposition and choice, and that's just fine with me.

it is ultimate nirvana to me called Miss.

Then you should be walking around in a perpetual state of bliss, cuz there are plenty of nice people out there who are more than happy to treat you like the Miss you love to be. It takes a little more than that to bliss me out, but it does make my day.

[Hope]

*clears throat*

Hope, Hope, Hope. You just made my point! Even if you are a guy in a dress, you are not a freak! Now, in my personal opinion, and I think the opinion of the larger crappy culture in which we find ourselves, passing is seen as trying to 'get away with something.'

And, on top of that, you'd be amazed with how accepted I am as a male in a skirt. I don't call myself a 'guy' necessarily, but we should have the right to be 'guys in skirts' if we want to.

I'm not saying that trying to pass is wrong or strange, but, at the same time, you don't have to pass to be the woman you want to be!

Silly me, I thought you were asking a serious question. I didn't realize you were trying to make a point.

How FU(#ING DARE you tell me what I do and don't have to be. I don't have to do one GD effing thing to please you. What I DO need to do is pass, or at least come as close as possible for me, and it would be nice if, while claiming the right to not pass, or even try - you would be kind enough to extend the same sort of consideration to others.

It's awfully nice that you feel comfortable as a guy in a skirt. Shouldn't everyone be just like you! Then the world would be a happy place full of joy and bunnies.

Sadly, some of us feel differently. Not all of us want to be guys in skirts. Some of us are evil "trying to pass" trannies, some of us are even *GASP* women trapped in this existence. Some of us are pretty bloody horrified living as men and will do just about anything we can to NOT be identified as men. Being a "guy in a skirt" doesn't make it better, even if you think it should. Sorry for ruining your party.

But you are right, you SHOULD have the right to be a guy in a skirt. Just like I should have the right to try my best to NOT be a guy in a skirt. You can't have it both ways.

[SarahLynn]

I have never dressed to pass, but to please myself. When I have fully dressed, I dressed to present the most complete feminine appearance I could within the bounds of polite society. For me that means, to present myself as a sucessfull lady. And lady is the key word. If I could not achieve that goal then I did not attempt to "pass", and for me that word meant to blend in to the enviroment. And that meant no skirts and blouse on the beach, but also no beach clothes downtown. No ****ty clothes either. Key word; presenting myself as a lady.

SarahLynn

[Lorna]

There are lots of things I would quite like to do but can't - drive a train, ski, make a film - and "passing" as a woman is just one of them. I accept that and do not spend any time worrying about it. The reasons I can't do these things vary - lack of kill, money, access, etc - and in the case of "passing" there's appearance on the one hand and likely consequences on the other. Both those factors are too daunting for me to even contemplate going out dressed and attempting to "pass". None of this stops me enjoying dressing when the opportunity arises. Would I like to experience going about fully as a woman? Yes I would, but it can't happen and that's that.

I admire all the people here who can "pass", all those who don't care and go out and about partially or fully dressed in female clothing but it's not for me and I'm quite happy about and accepting of that.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

OP asked an interesting question, and his perspective is interesting too

IT really is a VERY simple answer...why try to pass? because you want to to!

Tonix, et al... you do realize that you asked a question, got alot of very similar answers, and then spent a great deal of time trying to explain why you don't want to pass.

just sayin..

Pot meet kettle...you are both black...now shake hands and be friends

[sherri]

Not all of us want to be guys in skirts. Some of us are evil "trying to pass" trannies, some of us are even *GASP* women trapped in this existence. Some of us are pretty bloody horrified living as men and will do just about anything we can to NOT be identified as men. Being a "guy in a skirt" doesn't make it better, even if you think it should.

Some of us, including me, need to be reminded of this occasionally. Because it differs so substantially from our own perspectives, it's all too easy to lose sight of it. I happen to believe there is a bit of pretending that goes on by some along these lines, but I know it's real enough for others.

If I might please try to play the peacemaker here, I really don't think Toni meant any disrespect. There may be a certain what's-good-for-me-is-good-for-everybody tone to his posts, but I honestly chalk that up to his youth and lack of experience. I may have been a bit like that myself a long time ago, before life taught me I didn't know so much. Honestly though, Toni seems pretty open-minded and even-tempered to me -- once you get your point through to him! Bottom line, I think you two are polar opposites in your TG perspectives, so it's all too easy to get on each other's nerves. But I believe you both mean well.

Fwiw.

[Nicole Anne]

Being new to the site i have to say i dont tend to pass completely everytime i dress. But about 1 time a month i dress to pass and go out. I just do it for myself because i love all the time spent putting makeup on ad experimenting with new colors.

[Jocelyn Quivers]

In a very simple answer is it's just how my femme side is wired and I no longer really question or wonder why my femme side is that way.

It's just a part of my femme sides personality to want to emulate and look as closely as possible as a GG, which in my case is very difficult with my broad shoulders and arms.