Confused on Terms

[LaurenB]

Well all the anxiety about these labels does seem to boil down to the cultural discomfort with this sexual orientation or the implication of such. Someday when it is shown scientifically that sexual orientation is a spectrum not unlike a probability distribution function (think Guassian or more likely Rayleigh) then folks will just describe themselves as wide-gendered or narrow-gendered owing to how much of that sexual orientation function they stretch over in units of standard deviations. Can't believe I just said all that...I promise I won't do that again. Wish I had something pink and lacy to wear right now...

[sherri]

Well all the anxiety about these labels does seem to boil down to the cultural discomfort with this sexual orientation or the implication of such. Someday when it is shown scientifically that sexual orientation is a spectrum not unlike a probability distribution function (think Guassian or more likely Rayleigh) then folks will just describe themselves as wide-gendered or narrow-gendered owing to how much of that sexual orientation function they stretch over in units of standard deviations. Can't believe I just said all that...I promise I won't do that again. Wish I had something pink and lacy to wear right now...

I'm not sure what you're freakin' sayin' -- -- but I think you're really onto something with that wide-gendered / narrow-gendered idea. That resonates with me somehow.

[sherri]

Wow You know if Crossdressers (not all) as a subculture or group would stop with the I am not/we are not like them nonsense then things might seem different in the greater community.

That almost never happens, not only on forums like ours and others. But in media as well. There have been more crossdressers on mainstream talk shows and what happens? I am/we are Not Gay! I am just a guy who likes to wear women's clothes. Oh and have a femme name, just remember I am not Gay. Did I mention fake boobs oh its just so the clothes fit. But I am not gay!

And yet you all want to whine because the gay community doesn't want to take crossdressers seriously. Can you blame them!

I have said it before and I will say it again and again. If crossdressers keep projecting this ridiculous defensive attitude where every other word out of their mouths is "I am not like them" The gays/ The transexuals they will continue as a group and subculture to get what they deserve Isolation.

I volunteer at a gay community center and interact with transexuals all the time. and the only people in our community who ever looked down their noses at me were other crossdressers! I wont go into details here.

My apology to the OP It is just that these attitudes drive me crazy

Okay, first, you do realize that there was an element of sarcasm in my post, right?

Second, you haven't heard any "I'm not gay" disclaimers from me cuz I'm openly bi-sexual.

Third, I mention prejudice within the gay community because it is real and I have experienced it first-hand. Hell, I've had gays tell me to my face that they look down on CDers. Frankly, I find that sort of prejudice unfathomable and inexcusable coming from a group that experiences so much prejudice itself. Yes, there are wonderful gays and lesbians who are very gracious toward me, but that is due largely to us getting to know each other personally (essentially overcoming the prejudice) and certainly does not mean it's universal by a long shot. In fact, I would go so far as to say that the prevailing attitude among gays toward crossdressers is one of condescension or outright prejudice.

Fourth, it is equally myopic to presume that there isn't a prejudicial hierarchy among TGs. If you haven't experienced it consider yourself blessed, cuz it's all over the place, online and in person. Again, I for one have experienced it first-hand, have even had conversations about it in which it was freely admitted and explained. There's even a hierarchy here on this forum among CDs, but I'll leave that alone for now.

Fifth, the way I combat prejudice is to recognize it for what it is and call it out, and persist in my personal interactions in spite of it. Over the years my persistence has paid off, but it hasn't been easy or always pleasant by a long shot. If you want to call that whining, well ... I disagree. Head-in-the-sand attitudes about these issues sorta drive me nuts, too. It disrespects what some of us have had to go through to get where we are.

So to end on a positive note, experience has taught me that it is possible to overcome prejudice through personal interaction, patience and an even temper. This approach may limit the scale of impact, but I have to believe in the ripple effect. People who are able to overcome their innate prejudices and respond or reach out positively deserve a lot of credit, but at the risk of tooting my own horn, I'll take a little credit myself for hanging in there, being willing to overlook the pettiness, and trying to put the best face on things. Sooner or later there is a payoff. I would imagine this is true for many of us who are out and about, trying to make a difference in our own small ways and our own little worlds.

[LaurenB]

My apologies, Sherri, for going math so early in the morning. Fact is I hadn't had my correct dosage of coffee yet.

What I meant was something I've been thinking about for a long time. Namely, that I think everyone is basically Bi-sexual to a greater or lesser degree and it can be graded on a scale of say 0-10 if you like. 0 being completely hetero and 10 being completely homosexual. So somewhere along that continuum everyone has a number (oh and it may change over time). I think folks also have a "spread" on their particular number that is the extent to which they will stretch in either direction (given the situation or partner, etc.).

So a hetero CD (using our terminology) may be close to the 0 end of the spectrum (say 1.5) but is also wide-gendered meaning her spread is maybe 2 or 3 around that number. So while she'd not consider hopping in bed with a guy, it may titillate her to know a man is checking her out.

I'm probably a 4.5 with a spread of 9 - this is called the "pizza with everything on it but anchovies" classification. I like it all. Just joking....we're so wound up on classifications it limits our ultimate ability to be intimate with anyone.

[ValerieKay]

What would you call someone who:

1. Likes shaving his body and wearing a dress.
2. Who likes sex with women as long as they don't act too girlie
3. Could possibly fancy a guy as long as they are not masculine?

Is there a special niche, fancy abbreviation perhaps?

[CherylFlint]

Round pegs just do not fit into square holes, and crossdressers are so far out of the normal loop nobody, but us, know where to put us, to place us, to classify us. SO's are confused, the public is confused, the lesbian and gay communities are confused, everyone is confused but us, ain't it great?
When all is said and done, all we are is one hell of a lot of female in a male body. Enough already, as someone wrote, as long as you're not hurting anyone, what's the big deal?

[GaleWarning]

Namely, that I think everyone is basically Bi-sexual to a greater or lesser degree and it can be graded on a scale of say 0-10 if you like. 0 being completely hetero and 10 being completely homosexual.

Judging by the range of orientations expressed on this forum, I think the scale should run from
0 = completely hetero to
infinity = completely homosexual

Oh, and I'm not quite sure just how we would define those two terms!

I'm also not quite certain whether or not the scale ought to be linear or logarithmic or something completely different! One-, two, or multi-mentional?

And why should the scale not be turned around, completely?

It's the statistician in me, can I have a Bunderberg please?

[Lorileah]

OMG I am so incensed over anyone suggesting that my gender has a width of any kind. I am not wide or narrow gendered. I am average gendered.

And now we are putting various shaped pegs into holes? Will this ever stop people?

Doesn't anyone know the answer to Valerie's riddle?

This argument will never end will it?

[sherri]

What I meant was something I've been thinking about for a long time. Namely, that I think everyone is basically Bi-sexual to a greater or lesser degree and it can be graded on a scale of say 0-10 if you like.

The same notion could be applied to gender, I think, which is how I originally interpreted your comment.

[SuzanneBender]

Of course - this means that the terms are all basically meaningless. So don't stress about it too much.

Of course meaningless terms lead to greater histrionics. There are girls here who consider CDing to be a hobby. There are girls here who are into CDing as a fetishistic exercise, and there are girls here who call themselves CDs but who are more honestly TG/TS. When one of the fetishists defines herself in terms that seem to include and imply that the individuals involved have similar motivations as the TS community - members of the TS community get freaked out because the TS community struggles so hard to be viewed as legitimate and not "just" sexual fetishists. Hilarity ensues.

When one of the openly TS girls uses terms that imply that the hobbyists experience or motivations are similar to their own the hobbyists get their panties in a bunch because many of them spend their lives trying to convince their wives / husbands / girlfriends / boyfriends that they really are guys and don't want to to be girls and don't want to have their junk lopped off... they just enjoy dressing up and going out as girls sometimes. Hilarity ensues.

Darn it Hope you have muddied the waters even worse. It was bad enough trying to figure out if I am TG, TS, CD, Gender Dysphoric, Gender Disparaged, Drag Queen..... on and on. Now I have to determine if I am a hobbyist, fetishist, professional, amateur TS, TG, CD......Calgon Take Me Away!

I personally like the term TransGendered. It simply means across genders. Where you are on that spectrum of crossing genders matters in the least to me. It is an all encompassing term that provides our community with solidarity which is important as we strive for acceptance in the world. Pink Power!

[Philipa Jane]

Well now this has really poked a big stick in the rattlers nest and some of you ladies have come out spitting big time.
I did get a smile out of some of the posts.

I personally prefer not to be called a transvestite and am more comfortable with the term crossdresser.
Suzy Harrison did refer to me as TG this last weekend and I am not sure if that is the case as at this time I am happy as a CD male.

I have also noticed and posted on the issue of there being some sort of hierarchy within CD/TG/MTF/GAY or BIsexual.
Forgive me if some have been left out of the alphabet soup,but you get my meaning.
We are all here because we do not conform strictly to the male and female stereo type.
How about we all go along to get along.

[Stephanie Heplby]

What I meant was something I've been thinking about for a long time. Namely, that I think everyone is basically Bi-sexual to a greater or lesser degree and it can be graded on a scale of say 0-10 if you like. 0 being completely hetero and 10 being completely homosexual. So somewhere along that continuum everyone has a number (oh and it may change over time). I think folks also have a "spread" on their particular number that is the extent to which they will stretch in either direction (given the situation or partner, etc.).

There actually are existing social studies to this effect. I wish I could remember the names...

Suffice it to say that you are on the right track.

(I hope everyone is sufficiently impressed that I left alone the opportunity to pontificate on "deviation" as a term, based on a Foucauldian analysis of deviance and biopolitics...)

[Alicia Grey]

On a scale of one to ten, from I am ecstatic with my assigned gender (either male or female), to I am revolted with my assigned gender. I argue that a majority of males belong in the 3 to 7 value of such a scale, and a majority of females belong in the 1 to 5 value of the scale, with sufficient overlapping of such a grading system.

Allowing that such a system, like most label making systems, exists as just a point in time. and we as sentient beings are free to redefine ourselves at any future event.

Allowing that a lable can be affixed to a persons life, after it is over, providing a lifetime of evaluation.

So that any point of time we can span a rather large value range.

[ReineD]

There actually are existing social studies to this effect. I wish I could remember the names...

There are two scales: Kinsey's Sexual Orientation Scale and Benjamin's Gender Scale. I don't know if they are generally accepted to be accurate. Here is a summary of both scales and how they interact.

[Kelly DeWinter]

I really appricate the feed back, and feel that everyone has contributed properly and politely. I enjoy reading how the different personalities come out in the responses. Only after talking to other CD'rs, and finding out the animosity at club's that can happen, was I sparked to read more in depth. I know that in my past I tried to justify what i did, without tryning to understand the why, I ended up depressed and anxious, Now that I have accepted my feeling as just being who i am, I have a lot of peace, heck I'm almost off the anti depressants !

When it comes to Gender Scale and what others thing of others, I reminded of Saint Rodney King of Los Angeles who with a quavering voice proclaimed "Can't we all just get along ?"

Truly I would love to go to a club, to see everyone interacting, without the groupings i normaly see. It's as if there are high school cliques !

Is it the same in other cities as well ?

[SuzanneBender]

I really appricate the feed back, and feel that everyone has contributed properly and politely. I enjoy reading how the different personalities come out in the responses. Only after talking to other CD'rs, and finding out the animosity at club's that can happen, was I sparked to read more in depth. I know that in my past I tried to justify what i did, without tryning to understand the why, I ended up depressed and anxious, Now that I have accepted my feeling as just being who i am, I have a lot of peace, heck I'm almost off the anti depressants !

When it comes to Gender Scale and what others thing of others, I reminded of Saint Rodney King of Los Angeles who with a quavering voice proclaimed "Can't we all just get along ?"

Truly I would love to go to a club, to see everyone interacting, without the groupings i normaly see. It's as if there are high school cliques !

Is it the same in other cities as well ?

I can tell you that I have been in clubs in Kansas City, Omaha, LA, Chicago, Dallas and others places to numerous to mention. There will always be cliques, but the girls I spend time with don't label like that. We don't stand at the bar and go ohhhh shes cute but she looks like a CD we are not going to talk with her. I have friends from all corners of the US that run the spectrum darling.

[sherri]

Truly I would love to go to a club, to see everyone interacting, without the groupings i normaly see. It's as if there are high school cliques !

Is it the same in other cities as well ?

Yup, it is. But ime, the cliquishness isn't altogether insurmountable. Here are some tips:

• If you hang out often and long enough, they get to know you and warm up considerably. But you have to accept the fact that some people you're never gonna reach.
• Ime the people in the lesbian bars, which all seem to attract at least a few gay guys, are generally friendlier and more gracious than the crowd at the gay bars.
• In all the clubs, winning over the bartenders is key. They'll speak up for you, make introductions, pass notes etc.
• It really helps to be outgoing and initiate interaction. This hasn't been easy for me cuz I'm shy around strangers, doubly so cuz of insecurity about being CD. Turns out they all thought I was aloof -- and there I sat, just dying for someone to come over and say hi. What a doofus.
• Most of my club outings have been done solo, and I'm nearly always the only TG in the place, but having a friend along seems to melt the ice a bit. I guess it reassures people that I'm not a leper. (No offense to lepers.)

[kellycan27]

Yup, it is. But ime, the cliquishness isn't altogether insurmountable. Here are some tips:

• If you hang out often and long enough, they get to know you and warm up considerably. But you have to accept the fact that some people you're never gonna reach.
• Ime the people in the lesbian bars, which all seem to attract at least a few gay guys, are generally friendlier and more gracious than the crowd at the gay bars.
• In all the clubs, winning over the bartenders is key. They'll speak up for you, make introductions, pass notes etc.
• It really helps to be outgoing and initiate interaction. This hasn't been easy for me cuz I'm shy around strangers, doubly so cuz of insecurity about being CD. Turns out they all thought I was aloof -- and there I sat, just dying for someone to come over and say hi. What a doofus.
• Most of my club outings have been done solo, and I'm nearly always the only TG in the place, but having a friend along seems to melt the ice a bit. I guess it reassures people that I'm not a leper. (No offense to lepers.)

That's funny.. people think you are aloof because you are insecure,people think that I am aloof because I am more of a right in your face type. sometimes we just can win for losing huh? LOL

[ReineD]

Truly I would love to go to a club, to see everyone interacting, without the groupings i normaly see. It's as if there are high school cliques !

Is it the same in other cities as well ?

We live in a small town. We've gone out quite a bit to clubs and it does seem cliquish. But that's because the average age is 20-30 single-something and groups of friends do tend to hang out together. There seems to be a mix of friends within the smaller groups (lesbians, gays, & straights). There are also other groups of lesbians and gays who seem to keep more to themselves but I don't think they do this because they are snobbish or prejudiced towards CDs ... they are just there to have fun with their friends. I never got the impression any of these people would be unfriendly towards us. I'm sure that if we struck up conversations they'd talk to us, but the music is loud and it is hard to do this. Other than the DQs, my SO is usually the only TG there. The DQs are always very friendly, but it is business for them and they are friendly to everyone. The staff is always very friendly as well. They do tend to remember us and I don't know if this is because we are such a striking couple or because we are in a different age range than most of the others.

It's been so long since I've been into the bar & club scene that I can't remember if I ever did make friends when I went all those years ago. I lived in a larger city and I don't remember the clubs I went to being cliquish ... just people drinking and dancing and maybe hoping to get lucky. So I'm sure that outside of the cliques, there are a still some people who are there to ... um, make friends.

[sherri]

There are also other groups of lesbians and gays who seem to keep more to themselves but I don't think they do this because they are snobbish or prejudiced towards CDs ... they are just there to have fun with their friends. I never got the impression any of these people would be unfriendly towards us. I'm sure that if we struck up conversations they'd talk to us ...

Very good point, 'specially at the lesbian clubs (ime some gay cliques can be kinda hardass -- no pun intended ). I always try to keep an eye peeled to break the ice here and there. It might amount to nothing more than an introductory hug and hello, or maybe have a drink, or wind up being invited to the table for the evening. Even if I don't click with the clique, that doesn't mean there are any ill feelings either way. Some welcome company, some don't. One thing I've definitely noticed is that there seems to be a snowball effect -- hitting it off with one bunch seems to loosen up other people, and over a period of time you can find yourself on pleasant terms with many of the regulars.

Let me share an anecdote: My last outing I was to meet my little clique at the club, but I arrived a little early so after schmoozing with the owner and the bartender a bit I sat at the bar watching people drift in. There was a gay couple there that I had seen many times but they had never given me the time of day even though we have some acquaintances in common, so I just assumed they were maybe a little cool toward CDs. Well, apropos of nothing they walked over to where I was seated, introduced themselves and began to go on and on about how glad they were to meet me, all the nice things they've heard about me, how attractive I am and how nice I always look, do you know so-and-so, and come over and sit with us. I mean, they were so nice and so sweet -- well, I doubt I have to tell you how touched I was by their graciousness, and they get all the credit for reaching out.

It's been a long time coming, but I'm just gratified that it's coming.

[LaurenB]

Sorry I sound so analytical. On a more human note, maybe the problem is there aren't enough CD bars where we can all carry on while looking all squinty eyed at the gays, lesbians and straights walking in. How's that for turning the tables. Ooh ooh can I be a waitress?

[kellycan27]

Sorry I sound so analytical. On a more human note, maybe the problem is there aren't enough CD bars where we can all carry on while looking all squinty eyed at the gays, lesbians and straights walking in. How's that for turning the tables. Ooh ooh can I be a waitress?

Maybe you should try mainstream bars instead..give the regular folks a chance to hate ya too

You... used in the "general" sense

[Karen564]

Hmmmmmmm, As much as I would love to, I cant get into this thread, since I'm tied up in my school studies at the moment...

Hope, I Just wanted to say, you had an excellent post, and was very well put!!!!,

Kelly, I know it's needless to tell you, but will anyway, I loved your post too!!!


Carry on.....LOL