Straight guys and transsexual women...

[kellycan27]

Wow, this got feisty, lol. She thought he knew, whether or not she should have told him is moot, isn't it?


I've experienced some of the things Kara has, too, but I don't think turning the thread into "trannier than thou" is too helpful

Kelly, you've said that some here are looking out for only themselves and lack fairness, but you've said on multiple threads that you don't feel obligated to give back to the community. I wouldn't dispute that, as you say, you do give back, but how do these viewpoints mesh? Not trying to make waves, just curious

Whether or not she told him isn't relevant in the instance of it just being a sex thing. nobody is disputing that, it's whether or not to disclose the info in the event of a LTR. I think that I made that perfectly clear in almost every post in this thread.

It's not about being "trannier" as much as being a transsexual at all. I am being accused of discriminating against "we trannies" by someone who doesn't appear to to be a transsexual. Why? Because I am not in arms over the guys statement? I don't agree with how he worded it ( and stated such).
As a transsexual I have personally experienced just that exact type of attitude from str8 guys, and I said that as ugly as it sounds it is truly how a lot of men think and whether you sugar coat it or say it quite bluntly..it's the truth. Someone may say that they have never been shot, but they can imagine what it's like. I am pretty sure that the one who has actually been shot has a much better perspective than the one can "just imagine", so I ask what is your experience, are you in fact experiencing it in you daily life and facing it head on or can you change your clothes and be safe? How can that person judge me until they have walked in my shoes? basically.
The reference you make to "looking out for yourself " was in regards to two people in a relationship... not as in a group.
I never said that I thought anything was fair or unfair.. just that it is what it is.. whether it be fair or unfair.
I will address your comments in regards to my not owing anything to the cause via PM as it is not relevant to the OP

[kellycan27]

Joy I think what Sharon was trying to say, there have been more than a few very brutal murders of transwomen. Transgender awareness day was last November and the number worldwide has doubled from the previous year...this is very real to us...

I do my best to be out there and show people we are women in mind, spirit, and (with help) body. I have given many scientific talks as Julie, and one on transgender issues. I think it's important to continue the work so that society doesn't see us as males that become females, but females with a wrong body.

I think if someone truly loves you then trans can be worked around, and it has in many loving relationships...look at Jenny Boylan. About the only real dealbreaker is that we have to admit before a commitment as we can never bear children, a husband must know that...

So you believe that our only obligation to a prospective mate would be to disclose the fact that we can't reproduce? His freedom to choose whether or not he wants to be married to a transsexual is irrelevant, because the transperson is a woman? When he asks why we can't have children do we add another little
white lie into the mix?

[Hope]

Are you in fact a transexual? Are you out there living it 24/7 ? Or do you have the luxury of running home and changing into your drabs when you get frightened, or appearing in your drabs so that you don't have to feel the scorn of your friends ,loved ones or neighbors? Do you wear your girly clothes when you are at the pulpit? I do live it 24/7 365, and I don't have the luxury of changing into my drabs, or calling off of work because I am insecure or frightened.

Oh I see, so I'm not transexual enough for you. Nice. Or as you have eluded to in another post, not really a transexual at all. It's true that I am not nearly as far along as you are, but it's really quite irrelevant and I have no intention of justifying myself to you.

I find it amusing that you want to turn it around on me, like I am the one who discriminates.

Yeah. Wonder where I got that idea.

[Zenith]

So you believe that our only obligation to a prospective mate would be to disclose the fact that we can't reproduce? His freedom to choose whether or not he wants to be married to a transsexual is irrelevant, because the transperson is a woman? When he asks why we can't have children do we add another little
white lie into the mix?

Will you please stop editing your entire question while I am answering the first?

[kellycan27]

Oh I see, so I'm not transexual enough for you. Nice. Or as you have eluded to in another post, not really a transexual at all. It's true that I am not nearly as far along as you are, but it's really quite irrelevant and I have no intention of justifying myself to you.



Yeah. Wonder where I got that idea.

I don't know you and i did ask you twice, since you didn't answer I assumed that you are not. A lot of people do a lot of talking about others should do, but when it comes down to doing anything about it that's where it ends.
Stand at your pulpit fully en femme in front of your congregation and give your sermon, like I stand in front of my fellow employees, friends, family and strangers. Stand in the face of discrimination and spit in it's eye. It's not about who's further along, it's about a person's willingness to stand up to adversity, not just sit back and complain about how unfair it all is. Stand up at your pulpit in your finest frock and wig, and tell the people that it isn't right to disciminate, and then come and tell me that I am not being supportive. .

[kellycan27]

Will you please stop editing your entire question while I am answering the first?

Sorry Julie, my bad. I was agreeing with you until I read the part where you said that our only pre-commitment obligation was to disclose the fact that we can't have kids. At least that was the way it sounded, so I wanted you to clarify...sorry, I promise to keep quiet until you answer..if you would in fact care to.

[kellycan27]

TBPH this thread has ceased to be productive.( for me anyway) I think that we can all agree that kara was well within her rights to not disclose the fact that she is a TS for the porpose of just a sexual encounter.
Some of you believe that she is also under no obligation to disclose the facts to a prospective mate. I happen to be of he opinion that it would be the right thing to do, but that's just me. I really can't say that i am shocked or even surprised that some people have this attitude because how many times has being honest with ones SO come up with the cder's? Even after countless relationships end in break ups or divorce the question still pops up on a regular basis.. should I tell my wife or SO? I guess that some people just have to learn the hard way. I am not saying that you are wrong and I am right,rather that there is nothing wrong with being honest and up front with your SO and in doing so it would probably lead to a more happy and satisfying relationship. Nothing good can come from keeping secrets. I am outta here!

[Joy Carter]

Wow! What a bowl of sunshine you are! A TS deserves what comes to them if they don't fully disclose? They deserve any retribution? Any?

Go away.

Did I say any names Sharon, or are we just being to sensitive ? Some girls think that it's fine, to fool as guy, and that they are a homophobic if the guy objects. That quite honestly is mean and irresponsible. Do I wish the worst on anyone ? Absolutely not. But be real, if you rob as bank you take the consequences.

BTW: I have as much right being here as anyone. Or not ?

[Hope]

Did I say any names Sharon, or are we just being to sensitive ? Some girls think that it's fine, to fool as guy, and that they are a homophobic if the guy objects. That quite honestly is mean and irresponsible. Do I wish the worst on anyone ? Absolutely not. But be real, if you rob as bank you take the consequences.

BTW: I have as much right being here as anyone. Or not ?

I guess it depends on wether or not you think a TS girl is really a woman or not. Obviously you do not.

Either way I don't think it is fair to equate being TS with a a felony. And I don't think that it is acceptable to brutalize or kill someone who misleads you - even if the person who misleads you happens to be TS. Those are the consequences we are talking about. And call me a bigot if you must, but I do think that anyone who feels differently has no right to be here - but I don't make the rules.

[GypsyKaren]

Whatever Kara did or didn't/should or shouldn't do is her choice to make and no one else's business or concern, so I think it's time for some here to send the judicial robes off to the cleaners and stick to the original topic...and this isn't a request.

Karen

[Michelle_cd65]

I would have no problem dating a ts woman.

[kristyk]

It's really to bad this thread went as far South as it did. I found reading the issues that Kara was dealing with to be such a learning experience for me. I was happy for her, understanding, sad for her as well and not sure what I would do if I was in her place. I also came away with an understanding I could only get from a person that transitioned fully in the main stream public.

If I can say anything to Kara or to others like herself who may think twice about posting such a thread again. Dont let the judemental posts scare you from posting your real life experiences it helps some of us more than you will ever know. Reading the real life situation Kara was in after her transition to a transwoman and what decsions she had to make on the spur of the moment when her desire took over and her heart was saying yes, I'm not sure that's an easy decision to make for anyone.


KristyK

[Blaire]

One thing this experience suggests to me is that, if an experienced straight guy can spend ten minutes in daylight between my legs without realizing that I'm transgender, there is no significant physical difference at this point between me and any other random "genetic" woman lumbering around the mall... the difference is in the straight male brain, not necessarily in our beautiful transgender female bodies.

Part of the drive for guys is to propegate the species. Maybe he's a neanderthal, and maybe he's not. Maybe he's anti-something, and maybe he's not. Lost in the discussion so far (I'm only on page 4!) is that in this case, he knows up front that he can't continue his line - so why try (again)? Concious thought, instinctual feeling, or phobia laden jerk, it doesn't really matter - that part of "being a man" is lost. The strength of that drive has an impact, as much as does being a neanderthal.

That's about the only reason to "have to" disclose that you're a TS too. Your future hubby really doesn't want to hear it from the fertility clinic, any more than some of the guys on other parts of this forum don't want their wives to find the box in the back of the file cabinet.

So you believe that our only obligation to a prospective mate would be to disclose the fact that we can't reproduce? His freedom to choose whether or not he wants to be married to a transsexual is irrelevant, because the transperson is a woman? When he asks why we can't have children do we add another little
white lie into the mix?

In truth, isn't reproduction the only difference? Other than that, are you not physically, mentally, emotionally, and legally a woman? Couldn't "why" be put in the same bin as "how many others have you had before me?"

[Tiffanycd]

Hello Kara you are a beautiful woman and Ok maybe i am an odd ball but yes i am a straight guy and i am a long time crossdresser and i am not into men and after some time i can come to term with the fast that is who i am.
Back to my point what is in the past is the past it's not what is now and what and why i say i am a odd ball is i have seen a lot of transgender women that i find vary attractive i don't know is it me or was i wrong in thinking everyone! had feeling and know like there feelings hurt i guess most people just don't get it.

Tiffanycd

[KaraChristine]

Actually I don't think that discrimination is acceptable, but the truth of the matter is that it's out there and we have to deal with it on a daily basis....

...It hurts, and also believe that what we once were shouldn't matter, but the sad truth if that it does in deed matter as witnessed by myself, Kara, and I am sure countless others. It's not something that you have to accept, but it is something that you have to live with. And I am sure that it will remain so until people who talk a lot of smack, stop talking and do something beside flap their gums.

I actually agree with what Kelly said here - as we all eventually realize there is a lot of ignorance about trans people out there.

I guess for me personally, the best I can do is just be out there publicly and be myself. I'm a flight attendant and I interact extensively with 350 passengers at a time when I go to work. A lot of them don't seem to realize I'm trans, but I'm sure a lot of them also do. That's where the attitudes change, because they see that I'm the same as any other woman - looking good sometimes and smiling and flirting - tired and crabby and fugly at other times. And NOT A MONSTER or a "Silence of the Lambs" serial killer, just a real person like anybody else.

One thing that probably remains in people's minds when they see me at work is that here's a transsexual woman, someone who they've been raised to think of as a dirty joke and a marginal crazy figure. But she's in a respected position of authority - actually ORDERING them to fasten their seat belts and turn off the cell phone! That must be a mind changing experience for a lot of them and I'm actually proud if I can at least make a difference in that little way.

All the dating trauma and the "does he or doesn't he know, how should I tell him" stuff gets put in perspective when I remember that just being trans, surviving and attempting to live and be happy is still a powerful statement to the world by itself...

[Kaitlyn Michele]

IF I am ever lucky enough to find myself in the situation where I am with a guy and we are flirting I would be very uncomfortable with not telling him.
Would I consider sexual relations at all before telling him?...I don't think so.

Our mantra of I'm a woman dammit is right for us. It is incredibly meaningful and frankly many of us have given up alot to live our dream and be able to say those words AND feel good about saying them, really really feeling the truth of it...so we are totally compelled to be that woman with our partner
why wouldnt we be?

assuming the partner is a guy, switch it and consider how important it is to a straight guy it is that his love interest is a woman.. lots and lots of people are homophobic...but even more are just straight , plain ole straight.....
he doesnt have all the info or understanding of our situation, he probably has never ever considered whether he is willing to be with a woman that has transitioned...i gotta cut the guy some slack..saying he doesnt want to be with me anymore would hurt terribly, but i can't then say he's phobic in any way.

we can debate why I'm right and I'm a woman, and why he's wrong in calling me anything but a woman...but that's not gonna change how most guys will feel...and unfortunately for us, many will feel decieved, and many will not agree (especially in the heat of the moment) that we truly are women..

This seems like a huge gap in understanding that is still prevalent in our worlds and it totally sucks for us, its a tough issue with no easy answer.

i come out that I am gonna tell, and I just hope someday I have a chance to see if I practice what I preach..

[kellycan27]

Thank you Kaitlyn Michele.

[KaraChristine]

Here we go again....

An online exchange I had today:

Jan. 11, 2010 – 3:21pm
Hi Kara,
over the weeks on here, this site, your photo keeps cycling in front of me, so I thought I'd write to you...Your photos are seductive, and you've probably been told that you're very sexy! so,...do you fly all over the world with your job? where do you travel the most? Do you find it a satisfying career? How long to yo get to stay at home and enjoy the weather in Las Vegas? I'm in a small town near Boulder...It's nice here in the summer...but the winter is pretty shitty in fact...write me back if you want to,...I'd like to correspond a little if you do!
****


Jan. 11, 2010 – 4:14pm
Hey ****, thanks for the message.
I love the area around Boulder. I thought about going to Naropa once but NYU won out. You're lucky to live in such a beautiful place.
Vegas is an interesting place, too much at times but I'm gone about 20 days a month so it's a good balance.
Stay warm and cozy,
Kara

Jan. 11, 2010 – 7:16pm
I did not see you are a transsexual at first. You should be more up front about that and put it more obviously on your profile. Good bye.
****


Jan. 11, 2010 – 8:44pm
It's in the first section of my profile, Einstein.
I have 36D breasts and a vagina (which you'll never see) and a better body than 90% of the women you've slept with. So if you're that much of an insecure wimp to let my history bother you then I'm glad I found out now.
Good bye to you too.
Kara

This is the first thing you see on my profile:

"When I was 4 years old I insisted to my parents that I was a little girl, they disagreed ;-) That's all cleared up now and I'm a post-op transsexual woman who's proud of her courageous history. "

Six months ago this kind of nonsense would have had me crying and upset. I was listening to all the "reasonable" people who said that it's only "natural" for guys to lust after me until they find out I'm transsexual then run away in horror. I'm finally getting to the point where I'm fed up with pathetic losers who are scared of me because of my history. As I said to "****", I have breasts & a vagina and when I wake up in the morning and look in the mirror, this is what I see:

I suffered long and hard my entire life and finally had the courage to express myself as the woman I'VE ALWAYS BEEN. Obviously it's someone's choice if they want to date me or not, but it always comes down to BLAMING me for not hanging a sign around my neck that says, "DANGER - TRANSSEXUAL - RUN AWAY".

I'm gonna be brutal and blunt here and say it: it's not my fault if a guy is too insecure about his masculinity to accept that he found me attractive. I'm honest to everyone about exactly who I am, but it's not my responsibility to be 100% sure that everyone I meet knows my entire life history before we ever speak. My body is totally female in every way and now matches my mind, if someone is too dense to understand that then it's their fault and not mine.

It would obviously be cruel to force a woman who's lost 120 lbs. to immediately tell every guy she meets, "Before we go any further, I used to be morbidly obese" - it's bringing up pain, misery and rejection from her past that she's entitled to forget and preventing her from fully enjoying her new, slim, beautiful sexy self. THAT'S how I feel right now - how the heck does everyone think they have the right to force me to bring up my painful, miserable past constantly?

[GypsyKaren]

Regarding your post, if you haven't figured it out 95% of guys are un-dateable. This is a b/s number based on his b/s number, but really most of them, sadly, ARE useless.

Thank you. I always hate to generalize so I've avoided saying this, but let's face it, most men are assholes who aren't worth a sack of beans. And before some of you start jumping down my throat, I know there's some real gems out there, and I'm sure your Uncle Ted was one hell of a guy, but seriously now, most are completely worthless and cause more problems than they're worth.

Kara, you did nothing wrong, you're living your life, you're the one in the trenches who has to make the calls, you just keep doing what you think is best for you because you don't have to answer to anyone else.


Karen

[kellycan27]

That's about the only reason to "have to" disclose that you're a TS too. Your future hubby really doesn't want to hear it from the fertility clinic, any more than some of the guys on other parts of this forum don't want their wives to find the box in the back of the file cabinet.



In truth, isn't reproduction the only difference? Other than that, are you not physically, mentally, emotionally, and legally a woman? Couldn't "why" be put in the same bin as "how many others have you had before me?"

Technically true, but men are odd ducks. Nobody is saying that Kara has to do or not do, it's her personal choice. I am only stating my opinion, and I would disclose if I met someone that I thought that I might want to engage in a long term relationship. I would hate to have it come back and bite me in the rear sometime down the road after I have invested time,energy and or gotten myself emotionally involved.
Add to the equation your personal safety..... Just because we may feel that the only difference is our inability to reproduce, doesn't mean that everyone one is going to see it that same way, and in fact may react violently.
How things should be and how things really in the real world are quite different. I tried to make this point earlier in this thread and was accused of discriminating against transsexuals, and inferring that I was "more" TS than someone. The truth of the matter is that I am more TS than my accuser in as much as I, like Kara am out there living as a TS 24/7 and face the same difficulties as she does, rather than just being a closet TS. And I am not saying that a closet TS is any less TS, only that they don't have the same issues to deal with in the mainstream. I think it wonderful that a lot of you are showing your support, but I honestly have to say that I think some of you are in denial if you believe that disclosure is not important.(not an absolute must, but none the less important) Kara has already cited a couple of instances where when the truth of the matter has come out, it obviously ( right or wrong) made a difference.
Suffice to say that disclosure is a double edged sword for us as it can cut either way, and sadly it more often than not cuts us.
I totally agree that Kara shouldn't have to disclose, and I personally think that any guy who would walk away from her is a total idiot. Discrimination, and prejudice are 1000% wrong, but be that as it may, it's out there, and it's something that we have to deal with.

[GypsyKaren]

There's been a lot of sniping and word twisting going on in this thread that had better stop, keep it civil or stay out.

Karen

[carolinoakland]

yeah, what Karen said...

[Annaliese]

From what I see there loss, there will be someone rember a princess has to kiss a lot of frogs before she find her prince.

Hugs Annaliese

[gracee]

There's been a lot of sniping and word twisting going on in this thread that had better stop, keep it civil or stay out.
Karen

And if I may add a word (certain to be unpopular): Enough with the man-bashing too! "Neanderthal"... "homophobic"... "shallow"... Lordy! When I am a man I think as a man, and as a man I have feelings too (indeed have been encouraged by the female tribe to have them) and if I feel nervous, upset, unhappy, distressed by the thought or experience of my male friends dressing up and behaving as women, then I say, that's my own damn right! I'm a sensitive dude. ;-)

For the record, I have dressed up for numerous (curious) male friends and not a one of them has become unfriendly later. One went out walking with me, another even danced with me. They were having fun. After all, guys just want to have fun!

[Plasibeau]

And if I may add a word (certain to be unpopular): Enough with the man-bashing too! "Neanderthal"... "homophobic"... "shallow"... Lordy! When I am a man I think as a man, and as a man I have feelings too (indeed have been encouraged by the female tribe to have them) and if I feel nervous, upset, unhappy, distressed by the thought or experience of my male friends dressing up and behaving as women, then I say, that's my own damn right! I'm a sensitive dude. ;-)

For the record, I have dressed up for numerous (curious) male friends and not a one of them has become unfriendly later. One went out walking with me, another even danced with me. They were having fun. After all, guys just want to have fun!

I would have to agree, with what she said but to add my we're forgetting the psychology of the the entire situation. Because of social conditioning, especially dealing with a binary sex society, a man or woman is going to look at a man or woman and expect that is what all they see. Yes, as a transsexual we do have the right to keep our horrid pasts at bay; but at the same time who are we to be angry when a person is confronted with the unexpected?

Kara, you're beautiful darling. And I know a few guys who would trip over their own toungs if they ever met you. But unfortunatly they almost kill themselves running away once they found out that you were born with a birth defect. Not because they're homophobic or bad men. But because it complete screws with what they've been taught is feminine and what isn't. So what it really comes down is social conditioning and well thats just my humble opinion.