For Those Who Can't "Pass"

[tricia_uktv]

Yep, it has been done to death but is still valid. Until girls realise that passing doesn't matter they are trapped. Once you understand it is about you, not some imaginary beauty, you become free. And guess what. You start to pass

[Joy Carter]

I do this for me and only me. Pity the blokes and birds who don't approve. I'm me and they won't keep me at home.

[leggylisa]

I more agree with the statement that most just simply cannot pass, its a very very rare thing that a man just by merely putting on womens clothes could then be mistaken as one. As you said its not a case of passing more of being accepted

oh and i think it becomes easier to "pass" the older you get as its gets harder to tell with all the wrinkles!

[kellycan27]

So it seems that if we throw out the literal of passing, all we have to do is tweek the definition to suit our own needs and shazam, we should have no problem passing. Seems so simple.

[KateW]

I have a very definite man-jaw, am over 6'2" tall and more likely to pass as a wrestler then a woman. I think if I had a lot of facial surgery I might pass, but as I don't dress outside anyway, I don't really care! Plus now I have long blonde hair in guy mode!

[sandra-leigh]

(I like to think of it personally as being accepted/ignored or let be a human in peace) However I guess my question is what makes people assume they cant pass.

Early on, I thought that with a dress, forms (glued on or bra), pantyhose, shoes, lipstick, eyeshadow, mascara, foundation, different glasses, and a wig quite different than my usual hair (in colour and style), that I could "pass", in the sense that people (at least those not right near me and not hearing me speak) would believe that I was GG. I was naive.

What I found in practice is that no matter what clothes and (reasonable) makeup and wig I wear, that people who have seen me in drab (or, more likely, in stealth) have very little trouble recognizing me. At more than 50 feet. In a dimly lit room.

I know this because people (GG especially) often then promptly come over and greet me, either by male name or (if they haven't heard my male name) by (correctly) describing where we met. Or in the case of Sales Assistants, mention what I was shopping for the last time I saw them... more than a year earlier... and perhaps mention that I've lost weight since then (correct again).

Thus, there is something about the shape of my face that is fairly memorable, obvious even through different hair and makeup and clothes. I haven't managed yet to figure out what, but I have had it proven time and again that the old cross-dressing saying, "Don't worry too much about being recognized: no-one would ever recognize you in makeup and wig; no-one would expect to see you dressed as a woman" doesn't apply to me. Oh ya -- did I mention that none of these people has ever expressed any surprise at seeing me fully dressed? The only thing that I've ever noticeably surprised anyone on is that a few GGs have been surprised that my larger (size 8 or 10) asymmetric forms are not real breasts (perhaps implants).

Is it my "chiseled jaw and aquiline nose"? Beats me. What I can say is this: especially if I am a bit tired, if someone takes a picture of me angled from a bit below (and since I'm 6' tall, that's the view many people naturally have) when I'm not wearing my glasses, then it can be tricky at first to tell that picture of me apart from a picture of my mother.

My mother was showing some pictures to one of her friends. Her friend asked her, "Who is this on the picture sitting next to you?", pointing to my sister in the picture. But my mother wasn't in the picture at all: it was me sitting next to my sister.

Taxi drivers almost always refer to me as "sir" even when I am fully dressed. I did have one ask me a bunch of extraneous questions that appeared to be designed to get me to speak so as to confirm my sex, but I think I've only had two refer to me as "ma'm": once when I was heavily bundled up in a female coat and hadn't entered or spoken yet; and the other time just a couple of weeks ago, when a taxi driver referred to me that way even though I was merely in stealth clothes and making no attempt to appear or sound female.

Adding all the evidence up leads to two possibilities: either my face is strongly male beyond the power of ordinary disguise (but then why is it hard to tell the difference between my mother and I?) -- or else my face is on the male side of neutral but close enough to neutral that people are already well accustomed to the idea of me as female-ish. How do you recognize your GG friends when they have a radical hair colouring or restyling? You just do.

What makes me think that I couldn't "pass"? Answer: A lot of experience in not passing

But if the question is changed to one of tolerance and acceptance, rather than others believing you are GG, then the answer is that I am constantly amazing at how much tolerance, acceptance, and (yes) indifference I am met with. And that includes when I am out "gender-bending", not wearing a wig or much (if any) makeup, but wearing distinctly female clothes. I get very few negative remarks indeed; the number of curious and "I'm not sure I like this" looks go up as my skirt gets shorter -- e.g., with my skirt 3/4 of the way to my knee or lower, few people bother to look. It is as if at that length or longer, a skirt on a guy is treated as, "So, it's just a skirt... a bit odd, but so what?"; but at half way to the knee or shorter, it has become something of a Statement.

[Kate Simmons]

Good Lord has it come to this?

[CharleneT]

My point exactly. You may feel that you don't pass (in the literal) so you tweek the definition to fit your comfort level. " You" ,used in the general rather than personal sense.... passing is over rated, only if you desire to,but for whatever reason you don't. I don't think that I ever heard someone who does pass say that "passing is over rated".

Kel

Actually I never said whether I pass or not ... rather that acceptance is better in general because it is easier to reach (as a goal). I was speaking in general terms. I didn't really "tweak" the definition, I didn't even give one. I do think that there isn't a firm definition of "passing" - which it would seem we agree on ? As for people who do pass saying that they think it is over rated, I know a couple of post-op MTF's and one post-op FTM here who pass perfectly and all have often said it is over rated. One in particular doesn't really believe you should "try" but rather just be who you are. Sort-of "if you pass you pass and if you don't you don't" attitude.

BUT I agree that in general that those who don't think that they pass well are not likely to see it as very important. Who wants to think negatively about a subject that is both subjective AND so personal ??

[dilane]

I read that statement a bunch in posts, "I can't pass" or "I dont have any hope of passing." Now i personally dont like the word passing and dont think many CDs even can "pass" but thats another post(I like to think of it personally as being accepted/ignored or let be a human in peace) However I guess my question is what makes people assume they cant pass. In most cases are we talking about body size, height or weight? Or is it that there are beard wearers galore who are unable to shave. Or are there a lot of manly looking men with chiseled jaws and aquiline noses and muscular bodies(sorry hope no drool on the screen). I guess this is just an informal poll, and sorry if this has already been done to death.

Ooh -- another passing thread!!

Time for me to dust off the old "4 levels of passing" (copyright 1987 Dilane):


a) reasonably femme facial structure -- eg, thin nose, weak chin/jaw, flat forehead. 2 out of three of these and you can pass facially. I happen to have zero out of three, and somehow I get by. If you've got a heavy beard, you might be limited to nighttime outings where beard cover isn't as obvious. Or you can do what I did and banish the dang thing.

b) reasonably androgynous bone structure: not too tall, but if tall, very thin can counteract it. Narrowish shoulders, non-ham sized hands, etc. A BMI of 22 or less really helps here. I'm about 22.2, thin for a guy, but not so thin for a woman.

c) femme movement and comportment. Little things such as when you drop something, you bend your knees and stoop down to pick it up. Being able to walk without immediately being taken as a guy in a dress. I think I'm ok in this department, but it's something I practice.

d) Voice and facial expressions, eye-looks, and gestures when talking. I'm reasonably ok here, too. Some GG's I've met have told me that my voice is perfect, and some TG's have said it's just ok.

If you've got a & b, you can picture pass or pass just sitting or standing still.

If you've also got c you can move around and do things in the real world short of speaking and pass.

If you also have d you have died and gone to heaven

But I've known many TS's who have a & b (face and body) and who were at first afraid to go out and about -- even after transitioning. It takes practice and confidence built from experience.

[PetiteDuality]

I'm 5'7 and 145 lbs. However:

a.- My face is not feminine at all. Not even after professional makeup and beautiful wigs. Of course, I looked much better, but it was ease to tell I was a guy
b.- My broad shoulders and V-shaped back. Too masculine, no matter what clothes I choose, and believe me, I've experimented a lot.
c.- My hands and arms, specially my forearms. No way to conceal them, even with long sleeves. If I use too broad sleeves, then my shoulders and back seem to be emphasized
d.- My voice
e.- Although I already mentioned my face, I think that my beard deserves an special mention. I got 5 o'clock beard at 10 am
f.- Body hair. When I shave or Nair my chest, it's all prickly in about 4 hours.

There are many other things, but are fixable with forms, grooming and others (such as hairy legs, lack of hips, etc). But the ones I mentioned before are really hard to improve.

If I only had one or two of these features, maybe I could pass. But having all of them together is something else.

Many people here says "women comes in all shapes" or "I've seen women with no hips" or "some women have some facial hair". But no woman has all these things together...

[sherri52]

I don't pass. I am 6' 220lbs but that doesn't stop me from getting out there. Sometimes I get a number of looks and others very few. That could be due to a good or great makeup job or just the lighting. In most cases some people look and think I'm a man but I know at that time I'm a lady.

[Princess Chantal]

Why can't I pass??????????
I am too.......
- honest
- pretty
- stylish
- stubborn to not dress the way I don't want to
- much of a attention seeker
- attractive
- proud of being a crossdresser
- stubborn to dump all my masculine mannerisms
- stubborn to take on more feminine mannerisms
- absorbed in the environment to worry

[Karren H]

Good Lord has it come to this?

I don't think she's listening?

[kellycan27]

Actually I never said whether I pass or not ... rather that acceptance is better in general because it is easier to reach (as a goal). I was speaking in general terms. I didn't really "tweak" the definition, I didn't even give one. I do think that there isn't a firm definition of "passing" - which it would seem we agree on ? As for people who do pass saying that they think it is over rated, I know a couple of post-op MTF's and one post-op FTM here who pass perfectly and all have often said it is over rated. One in particular doesn't really believe you should "try" but rather just be who you are. Sort-of "if you pass you pass and if you don't you don't" attitude.

BUT I agree that in general that those who don't think that they pass well are not likely to see it as very important. Who wants to think negatively about a subject that is both subjective AND so personal ??

First of all... if you re-read my post I did in fact say that I was using "you" in the "general" sense and that I wasn't referring to "you" personally.
Most of us who do pass, didn't just pass, we had to work at it. Your friend who does pass was either born passable, or had to put a lot of work into it.
Having such a cavalier attitude .. you shouldn't try, or a if you pass you pass attitude is very easy to say if you do in fact pass. I wonder if her attitude would be the same if she didn't pass. There isn't anything wrong with tweaking the definition to fit your needs if it in fact helps you do what you like to do, that's where the subjective comes in. It's all good! Just different interpetations of passing.

[msginaadoll]

Well its always interesting to see where a thread takes ya. I thank all for responding and especially those who focused on the question I asked. This past year I have been out and about more than I ever have in my life in Gina mode. . During this time I have really been looking at women- I consider it study. Its something I hate to do alas, but the scholar in me tell me I need to. The one thing I realy have noticed is that women come in all sizes and shapes. In fact woman seem to be taller now than they have ever been as well as heavier. I may need to duck for cover on that one. We all know obesity is a major health problem if not the most important one we face. Well in noticing that it does open up the opportunity for more CDs to get out in the world and maybe blend or pass better. Also women have bigger shoulders, smaller shoulder, hips no hips. They exist in all sizes and shapes. What has been interesting to me is that so many of the most attractive cds i know have been taller ones. Maybe it is because they realize or feel that they need to work more on there style, use of makeup etc because it is harder otherwide to not be noticed. Those with smaller frames or shorter may take things for granted. Or I could be just blowing smoke. Even hairyness wise, tops, turtlenecks, sleeves, etc cover up that. So just wondering if sometimes the biggest worry about passing is the mental fear that we are going to be laughed at- and that may be the tuffest thing to get over. Well as some have said not this topic again, but hey is there really an original topic out there? As the Barenaked Ladies say "It's all been done before"

[Tiff Rivera]

Personally, passing for me was about my acceptance of me, more than anyone else. Although, I have really worked hard at being me. After I completely accepted myself it got easier

[Theresa1955]

I do not believe it is an issue of passing as a GG, but being accepted. Acceptance is a favorable reception from those around us. We are not really concerned about passing as a GG, but concerned with rejection and humiliation. We each will struggle with acceptance. I believe you must have confidence in yourself and project yourself to the best of your ability. Each of us have our own physical faults when it comes to what we believe is the “look of a woman.” Observe very carefully the next time you are out at the average woman. You may be surprised that what you perceive as your shortcomings may not be an issue. As for me, and those of use over six feet, we are not in the “norm” for feminine statue. However, we can work on our inner self, our outward appearance and have fun doing it individually or with someone we trust.

Be good
Luv
Theresa

[windycissy]

As I've said before, like most things in nature it's a bell-shaped curve: a lucky few have the body, face and knack to pass, an unlucky few couldn't pass if Este Lauder did their makeup and Gloria Vanderbilt designed their clothes, and for the rest it is possible to pass as women with a lot of effort, including adapting their style to their physiques...it's very true that there are a lot of zaftig women out there, and there are lots of nice clothes at Lane Bryant. Of course, for many crossdressers, passing as a fat chick is not their fantasy. I must say I don't relate to those who want to make a political statement by wearing women's clothing, but to each her own.

[alexism&f]

Yeah, I also am pretty much completely unable to pass, I'm short enough (5'8") and my whole body is always shaved, but I have one minor problem, I'm 200 lbs with a 28" waist and 17" arms, and I do compete in bodybuilding, so most of that 200 lbs is very unfeminine muscle that I have a love hate relationship with (long story lol). But since most guys are smaller than that (much less a typical gg), it'd be extremely hard to pass looking like that.

Thats why I tend to resort to freestyle fashion. I wear heels, nail polish, make up, etc while in "drab" all the time. But with the encouragement of my gf, I'm considering making my next bodybuilding comp my last and trying to get skinny, I'm also growing my hair longer than it's been in over 2 years (I used to buzz it every day) It's curly and puffy (almost like a really small afro like steve harvey used to have) I'm seriously considering growing it out even more and getting it straightened and styled in a more femme style. So who knows, maybe I will be able to pass sometime in the future (I can only hope

[linnea]

I think that Charlene and Suzanne B have the right ideas about this one. Being accepted, blending in--these are what I strive for, and I feel good now about my efforts because I don't think much about panties (I also don't think much about purging any more, Karren; but I do think about panties a lot).

[Nicole Erin]

Who knows about this passing. Thing is, once you get comfy enough being out en femme to whatever degree, you just quit caring what people think. Even if you are read, if you don't look nervous, people are not going to stare or care. Tyhink about some of the different folks you have seen who don't fit the norm. If they were acting comfy in their own skin, were they worth staring at?

I'm considering making my next bodybuilding comp my last and trying to get skinny, I'm also growing my hair longer than it's been in over 2 years (I used to buzz it every day) It's curly and puffy (almost like a really small afro like steve harvey used to have) I'm seriously considering growing it out even more and getting it straightened and styled in a more femme style. So who knows, maybe I will be able to pass sometime in the future (I can only hope

Sadly tho - muscles just don't atrophy like the muscle mags would have us believe. I ain't touched a weight in 10 years and my muscles, while not as tight, have not really just disappeared. For other weight trainers, if they were using roids the muscle mass supposedly will go away but otherwise not really.

Hair - When you do grow it out, they have flat irons that work wonders to straighten your hair but it is only temporary. Next time your hair gets wet it will assume the natural curl. However, you CAN go to a salon (a real salon, not some chain outfit) and they can do a chemical relaxer that will remove much of the curl from your hair permanately. Think of it like a reverse perm. Although with this procedure, you need to go in every couple months for a touch up where they would put relaxer on the new growth.
If you do go to a salon for such a treatment, you NEED to be honest about any chemical services you have had before cause if it has been chemically treated before,. using another chemical could do serious damage, like making the hair break, (or the layman term - "frying" your hair)

[CharleneT]

First of all... if you re-read my post I did in fact say that I was using "you" in the "general" sense and that I wasn't referring to "you" personally.
Most of us who do pass, didn't just pass, we had to work at it. Your friend who does pass was either born passable, or had to put a lot of work into it.
Having such a cavalier attitude .. you shouldn't try, or a if you pass you pass attitude is very easy to say if you do in fact pass. I wonder if her attitude would be the same if she didn't pass. There isn't anything wrong with tweaking the definition to fit your needs if it in fact helps you do what you like to do, that's where the subjective comes in. It's all good! Just different interpetations of passing.

I did notice that ...but got mixed up about which "You" you were refering too Sorry.

My friends have all worked quite hard at "passing". In the case of one, a lot of FFS as well. The FTM less so, but she is younger and everything in this subject is easier then.

"I wonder if her attitude would be the same if she didn't pass."

I was giving examples in answer to your statement that people who do pass don't say that passing is over rated. Some do though... I think people's opinions about "passing" are based more in their personality than their ability. At least with those who've had been at it for a decent amount of time.

ONE thing for SURE: I think the term has lost useful meaning, except at a personal level ... ie, "I think I'm passing well these days..."

[JaytoJillian]

imagine this conversation:

Guy #1: "that's a dude in dress!"

Guy #2: "yeah, but that dude looks hot!"

[~Emma D~]

Whilst I have dressed for such a long time and often ventured out in public over the years, it was always where it was either at night and I had my head covered by a coat hood and/or umbrella. I know at times I probably looked out of place and was called a few choice names, with fear of being caught always on my mind.

Not for one moment, did I believe I could go further and it was not until, I joined the forum in the summer that I realised that my dreams are similar to so many others and if I try, maybe, just maybe, I could pass some of the time.

In the past few weeks, I have gone out in public fully enfemme on three occasions and never felt so alive.

I really don’t know, if I was read on the first outing, the second definitely but that was not a bad experience with both GG’s being nice and helpful, and on the most recent, probably I think – but I just don’t know.

This is an early stage for Sarah, and just now, passing or blending in is so important but that may change as I gain more confidence.

I realise I will not pass all the time and never will, and how I deal with circumstances could be interesting, but if I am to continue going out, it is something I have to deal with.

More than anything I don’t want to and can’t go back to where I was in the first paragraph.

[StephSissy]

It would take more than a makeover. The amount of hair on my back and front and legs and arms would be quite a pile were I to shave it off. My wife would kill me. Plus, I'm 40 lbs overweight. I will be doing something after the holidays about the weight. It has started to impact my health.

I'm with you on this... High blood pressure doesn't help! And, of course, neither does ALL the hair. Too bad a full laser treatment or something wasn't possible.