Crossing dressing and dating guys?

**ReineD** · 04-04-2010, 10:23 PM

Originally Posted by Jenny Aurora

But when I was with my first girlfriend, I think part of me was always emotionally unavailable to her and there was probably quite a lot missing from the relationship ... At the time, I guess I only saw things one way.

Maybe this happened because you didn't love her and she wasn't the one for you? Or do you mean the situation developed because you were wrapped up in femme fantasies and your ex gf sorta fell by the wayside? Either way, thanks for your honesty.

Originally Posted by Jenny Aurora

It is such a horrible feeling to feel as if someone is not fully in the relationship, that anything is missing or that the person you are with would prefer you to be someone else, someone different. It's like a stab to the heart.

Maybe it is something that can be best seen when you experienced it yourself? It's too easy to get lost in your own little world.

I agree. You know, I've talked to a lot of people here and I've seen many threads where it appears as if partners (either the GG or CD) end up putting blinders on and settling for crumbs, and the intimacy (sexual intimacy is a huge part of it) slowly erodes to the point where they become two room mates who share a roof.

Originally Posted by Jessy

Like said before, they could feel like they only have a parttime husband. But that's all a matter how she feels about the whole cd subject, how far we feel like we need to go with our cd around her, and what sacrifices we are willing to make...

Although I agree that many GGs don't want to have anything to do with the CDing which makes it difficult for the CD, this particular thread is more about sexual desires. This thread has nearly 19,000 hits and more than 300 responses, well over half of which disclose fantasies about being with men (but only while dressed .. so it is assumed the responder is a hetero CD, perhaps or likely (?) in a relationship with a GG). Believe me, GGs do feel the disconnect.

Originally Posted by Fab Karen

Not all of us ( or even possibly "many" ) are married, and even fewer of those who are married are selfish people who'd use ANY excuse to cheat. I repeat, it isn't because they are CD's.

That's true! But the statistics or the 'buzz' (whether it is accurate or not, I don't know, since it is difficult to measure) is that most CDers are married, heterosexual men. Yet here is a sizable thread where a majority fantasize about being sexual as a woman with a man. This is something that a wife or a potential gf cannot compete with, no matter how sexually willing she is to be with her partner. Granted, non-CDers fantasize about having sex with women outside their relationships too, maybe this is your point. Someone else mentioned this too. But I should think it wouldn't be such a stretch for a non-CD to transfer a fantasy about some hot babe to his partner when they are making love, since the object of the fantasy and the person being made love to is the same gender. It stands to reason that it would be harder to enjoy a GG partner as much if the sexual desire was to be as a woman who wants to be with a man.

Karen, again I'm not wanting to be difficult, just pointing out a major reason why GGs have an issue with the CDing. This would even affect a bi GG, since she also would not measure up if her CDing husband wanted to be with a guy. OK, so the disclaimer is that CDs say they only feel this way when they are in femme mode, not guy mode, therefore the wife is not affected. But how many CDs have said they feel flat sexually in drab?

Originally Posted by kellycan27

I am not saying that there is anything wrong with expression,just that these type threads can lead to a lot of insecurity for loved ones.

Bingo!

But, still I think it is important to discuss this. I would hate to see a thread like this go underground to the GM forum simply out of a desire to 'spare' the GGs from the truth, or even from the fantasies.

I took the time to post so many comments in this thread in order to try to point out to whoever might be interested why perhaps some wives (or exes) do not or did not like the CDing. It can be more than a mere distaste for a husband who occasionally wishes to be feminine. In other words, it is more than just about the clothes. GGs do feel the disconnect when there is one. I don't want to put words in anyone's mouth, but there does seem to be a mindset here that whatever the wife doesn't know won't hurt her, especially when it comes to fantasies or sexual desires.

My point in going on about this (and I apologize to those who feel I am long-winded), is to encourage the CDs who have these fantasies to come clean with their wives, or to work towards bridging a gap if there is one, and to try to incorporate the fantasies in the marriage, even if it means becoming a little more flexible.

Originally Posted by JodyCD

I don't buy that its only men doing this, and its probably an equal statistic of women behaving in the same manner.

Jody, I agree and I did mention the possibility in my post on page 12. But I would be willing to bet, if there was such a similar in FAB, that most GGs would much rather make love to their husbands than anyone else.

I do admire the open, alternative relationship you have with your wife. But I do not think this is the norm.

**JulieK1980** · 04-04-2010, 10:43 PM

Reine, I suspect your probably right, and I think in retrospect a lot of the females that I know usually end up in extramarital affairs because of the disconnect in their marriage. They don't get the emotional needs at home and go elsewhere. Whereas most men seem to be after the sexual gratification. Both situations are bad, but its definitely a relatively important distinction.

The "it won't hurt her if she doesn't find out" philosophy, is absolutely horrible, and destroys marriages, and people's sanity.

It also seems a similar instance to so many CDers who hide the CDing from their SO justifying it as not hurting anyone.

**KayC** · 04-05-2010, 01:48 PM

This isn't addressed to those who are single, but to those who have led their partner to believe that they were in a faithful and committed relationship.
As someone who was cheated on in my now former marriage, I can assure you that what one doesn't know can and does hurt them! I became physically ill when my husband's affair started, and it continued for months...I think subconsciously we know something is wrong and the stress affects our bodies. The pain and confusion associated with someone going outside the marriage is unbearable.
Further, when we have ASKED you if you ever thought of being with a guy and you have answered "no", it is all the more hurtful to learn that you actually fantasize about being with a guy. That is the one thing we can't be and shouldn't have to compete with. So many of you have stated how you wish you had a supportive GG...well, many of you do...but how supportive of a husband are you being when you fantasize about being with someone else?
To the single ones out there that are completely unattached, you're free to pursue whatever you want...to the rest, you've already made an obligation and if you can't live up to it, NOW is the time to tell your partner.

**Sheila** · 04-05-2010, 03:11 PM

Originally Posted by KayC

When we have ASKED you if you ever thought of being with a guy and you have answered "no", it is all the more hurtful to learn that you actually fantasize about being with a guy. That is the one thing we can't be and shouldn't have to compete with. So many of you have stated how you wish you had a supportive GG...well, many of you do...but how supportive of a husband are you being when you fantasize about being with someone else?
To the single ones out there that are completely unattached, you're free to pursue whatever you want...to the rest, you've already made an obligation and if you can't live up to it, NOW is the time to tell your partner.

Well said KC ............ I will add however that when you answered no to us in the beginning, you may well have been being honest then, but when your interest/fantasy began to become real then also was another time you should have told us ........

For those who are cheating on their partners, I hope to hell you get caught and remember a recent revelation by one of your own had to come here and admit to having lied to you guys after his wife found out about his cding activities by coming here, and another recent thread where the son printed and gave to mum what dad had been saying ............ the next time it might be you and she might find out that you have cheated/want to cheat on your relationship, if it is I for one will give you no sympathy .......

[SIZE="3"]and by the way ....... cheating while you are dressed is still cheating ......... you may change clothes but you do not change sex, you do not change your responsibilities or obligations to those who love you and whom you claim to love as well ........... you are the same person at core whatever your dress mode [/SIZE]

If ever I came here and read debs was saying things that as Reine D said

remove the energy from ~~their~~ our sexual relationship with ~~their partners~~ me

& I will also include emotion energy, then we would be no more, I will not condone cheating in RL and if her fantasy were ever to remove those from our relationship over a period of time then it would be time for her to go see if she could make her fantasy a reality without me .............. [SIZE="3"]I deserve so much better than that [/SIZE]

**MizT** · 04-05-2010, 03:16 PM

Nope...no men....

**Fab Karen** · 04-05-2010, 08:40 PM

"OK, so the disclaimer is that CDs say they only feel this way when they are in femme mode, not guy mode, therefore the wife is not affected. But how many CDs have said they feel flat sexually in drab?"
Some say that, not the majority. And of the ones who are married, seems to be a minority who as I said are the types who'd be finding an excuse to cheat regardless of being a CD. And/or they've got issues with their sexuality, and pretend they're Sybil when they're not, using it as an excuse to have their cake & eat it too.

**Sheila** · 04-05-2010, 09:59 PM

Originally Posted by Fab Karen

Some say that, not the majority. And of the ones who are married, seems to be a minority who as I said are the types who'd be finding an excuse to cheat regardless of being a CD. And/or they've got issues with their sexuality, and pretend they're Sybil when they're not, using it as an excuse to have their cake & eat it too.

But even if it is not the majority and only some .......... it is still said & at the end of the day, even if it is just some GG's saying it, it is still affecting relationships with some of their partners, ([SIZE="1"]sometimes it is not the GG who is saying it that it is coming from, but rather they may be speaking on behalf of other GG's whom they know are feeling/have felt like this in the past ... I have done that on several occasions in several threads and am sure I will again in the future [/SIZE]) & it is with their CDing partners that they are saying it about which it is why it is being said in this thread (and other ones) on this forum ............. if it was (and I am sure it will be said on train forums, stamp collecting forums, car forums etc etc about the activities their partners do affecting their relationship) then they would/will be saying it there

Cheating is cheating and removing oneself for whatever reason, mentally emotionally or physically from your partner is going to cause ill feeling and perhaps eventually the end of your relationship ......... unless of course both parties are happy with the status quo .......... I wouldn't be but then that is me

**Soriya** · 04-05-2010, 10:07 PM

I think most in here don't condone cheating but as you say Shelia, there are all sorts of things that lead to people straying in their relationship, and I hope that most would agree that no reason is a good reason. Of course there are some that just don't care, but god I hope most do.

Bottom line, in this thread, crossdressing can be used as that avenue and some have or are thinking about it. IMO, weather it's CD'ing or something else someone uses as an excuse, they should look deeper and ask themselves what is really wrong in their relationship as an excuse is just that, and excuse, not the reason.

**ReineD** · 04-05-2010, 10:57 PM

Originally Posted by Fab Karen

Some say that, not the majority.

I can't dispute whether most, many, or a few of the CDs who posted in this thread are married (or even if they are CD vs. TS), since not all the CDs who said they were interested in men disclosed their marital status or their gender ID. You are correct, only a few people did say they are married. This does not mean that the rest aren't or weren't.

I was using the premise that the majority of CDs are heterosexual men who are or have been married. This is admittedly Tri-Ess' viewpoint (paragraph 5), and up til now I assumed that Tri-Ess had a pretty good handle on it. But, maybe they don't.

Granted, even if most of the CDs who posted in this thread (who did not disclose their marital status) are now divorced and they are free to do as they please, my points still apply. If during their marriages the CDing led them to desire men as women, chances are their wives felt this at some level and this was a greater factor in the divorce than a mere dislike of the husband wearing feminine clothing; this, and the CDer's decreasing (or decreased) interest in his wife. I do not condemn people for their sexual preferences or for the choices they make. I was merely pointing out that sexual fantasies especially of this nature do more harm to a relationship with a GG than perhaps CDers care to believe.

I was only trying to present my viewpoint as a GG, for the CDs whose marriages have become distant (or the single CDs who find it difficult maintaining a relationship with a GG) and who wish to turn things around for themselves.

**KayC** · 04-05-2010, 11:28 PM

Good take, Reine!

**Jacqueline Vasquez** · 04-06-2010, 12:14 AM

I have been with men before, but never dressed. My fantasy is to go out on a date with a man en femme, be treated like a lady, and taken back to his place and he has his way with me. I do prefer women over men, but hot sexy men get me going!! especially when they are well endowed! heehee

**Mistybtm** · 04-06-2010, 01:01 AM

Jacqueline

Same for me could not have said it any better

**Satrana** · 04-06-2010, 03:23 AM

I have deliberately ignored this thread up to now because fantasies are such a minefield to discuss. Some people keep fantasies and reality apart, others seek to merge them. This is an individual thing and there is no way to know where someone else stands on their fantasy-reality take. What I do know is if you are insecure about the issue another person's fantasy revolves around then for sure you will think the worst and assume that the person will desire to make their fantasy reality.

Ergo why some people think that because this thread has so many hits that it must say something profound about CDs.

I came here just out of curiosity to see how many pages this thread has stretched to. Now I see that some GGs are commenting on the damage this can do but as I read their comments I have spotted what I believe are 2 erroneous assumptions.

Originally Posted by ReineD

If during their marriages the CDing led them to desire men as women, chances are their wives felt this at some level and this was a greater factor in the divorce than a mere dislike of the husband wearing feminine clothing; this, and the CDer's decreasing (or decreased) interest in his wife.

I find this analysis misses the target because of the assumption that CDs will suddenly stumble upon the fantasy during the marriage and this may lead to decreased sexual relations. In reality all CDs fantasize about this idea because it is the ultimate in female role playing. And these thoughts have occupied the minds of CDs since their early adulthood when they became sexually aware/active.

Long before a CD marries the fantasy is already in place. It is hard then to argue that this is a contributing factor to a relationship breakup when it existed at the very start when presumably the sexual attraction was strong. Obviously this excludes situations where the CD is actively making his fantasies reality.

So the profound explanation of this thread is CDs do fantasize about sex with men as a woman and always have since their youth.

In all relationships men and women end up taking each other for granted. Men and women cheat on each other equally. And the idea that women do it for love and affection and men for sex is a myth. Surveys show tons of women do it for the sex and tons of men do it for the love and affection. There is no gender divide on the reasons behind cheating. I believe a lot is being read into normal situation of people growing apart which would have occurred anyway.

If there is a CD contribution to sexual intimacy problems it is that the fantasy is always stronger and more attractive than reality. So as sexual relations decline as they inevitably do in a relationship, the fantasy becomes increasingly more attractive in comparison and the CD's sexual energy is diverted into the role playing. And unlike most men who will struggle to enact their fantasy with a young beautiful woman, a CD is only a wardrobe away from jumping down the rabbit hole. When fantasy role playing is easily and routinely accessible then the draw becomes even more powerful.

If I were a GG my insecurity would be more focused on how my CD partner relates to his dressing habits. The more fantastic and fanciful the dressing, the more it is strictly compartmentalized, the more the CD will be drawn into his fantasy world and will become detached with the real world and his personal responsibilities.

The second point I wish to contest is the notion that it is unfair-impossible for GGs to compete against a CD fantasy of having sex with men. Again this to me says more about the insecurity of the partner than the issue itself.

How does a woman compete against any fantasy of any man? Is she going to have extensive plastic surgery and make her sexually submissive so she can compete with the 18 year old model in the man's mind? Truth is no-one can compete against another person's fantasy. Reality sucks compared to a fantasy so it really does not matter what the subject matter is, it does not affect the outcome.

Originally Posted by Di

the fantasizing the preoccuption just SCREAMS MEN.
Sorry just do not get the dwelling on it....but it seems like a
Mars vs. Venus: kinda thing and I relate more to a woman I guess.

Sorry that is nonsense. There is a huge market in female fantasy. 55% of all books sold are romance novels with billions of sales every year. From Wikipedia -

A survey of 600 regular romance readers "found that they mirror the general population in age, education, and marital and socioeconomic status." Over half of the women had at least some college education, and 40% were employed full-time. 60% of the women surveyed read at least one romance every two days. The heart of the U.S. romance novel readership is women aged 31–49 who are currently in a romantic relationship..

Seems many women are preoccupied with fantasies too.

**kellycan27** · 04-06-2010, 04:02 AM

I still say some of you are missing the point. How does one expcet a gg not to be insecure at times when their SO or people who engage in the same type of activity are talking about having sexual relations with another? How is a gg supposed to separate fact from fantasy? How many gg's wonder where this thing is leading and what is in their future? Look at all the threads about lies, secrecy and hiding, and deciet. Look at the threads where a cder suddenly decides that he is in fact a TS. How could all of these thing not have an impact?
No one is attacking cder's for having fantasys, or even discussing them. her point was more along the lines of reading about them and wondering if in fact there could be a possibility of someone carrying them out.
How many of you who have these fantasys would be willing to share them with their SO, or be comfortable with their SO reading about them? If you answer no you would not be comfortable.. Why not?
Blaming the insecurity on the gg, IMHO is a cop out.

**Sheila** · 04-06-2010, 04:30 AM

Originally Posted by kellycan27

How many of you who have these fantasys would be willing to share them with their SO, or be comfortable with their SO reading about them? If you answer no you would not be comfortable.. Why not?
Blaming the insecurity on the gg, IMHO is a cop out.

Thank you Kelly, very well said

**Satrana** · 04-06-2010, 05:18 AM

Originally Posted by kellycan27

I still say some of you are missing the point. How does one expcet a gg not to be insecure at times when their SO or people who engage in the same type of activity are talking about having sexual relations with another? How is a gg supposed to separate fact from fantasy?........ Blaming the insecurity on the gg, IMHO is a cop out.

The cop-out is to suggest that GGs have these doubts because of threads like this. The truth is that these doubts have been in place since the moment the GG learned of her partner's habit. Every GG automatically asks at the moment of revelation whether the CD is gay and if he intends to change sex. These are universal questions because this is what society believes drives crossdressing. Society does not believe these things because everyone comes here and reads threads like this. This is the historic ignorance and prejudice that drives CDs into the closet in the first place.

These doubts about sexuality and transsexualism always remain nagging at the back of every GG's mind that maybe one day in the future things will change and her partner will want to go full time or will become attracted to men. The fear never fully goes away. So of course these threads will only convince some GGs that their fears are justified.

This however is very unfair on CDs. You can find examples of every type of imaginable behavior, does that mean our partners should fear that we may do a million different things that would hurt her? Does generalizing about these matters mean you should stop seeing your partner as an individual and convict your partner as guilty without charge?

See its simple. You either trust your partner or you don't. There is no middle ground, it is either one or the other. If you have no evidence that your partner is cheating then you have wronged them in a major way. A relationship is worthless without trust and to destroy it based upon insecurities is a terrible thing.

By all means go look for evidence to support your insecurities in other people's fantasies and behavior. How does this help your relationship with your partner?

**mklinden2010** · 04-06-2010, 08:36 AM

I've ignored this topic for a long time because I already think that the major undercurrent of ALL crossdressing activity is or in time will be related to homosexual behavior. I'm fine with that, but I tire of hearing it debated as if it weren't the case.

Most women understand this "man on man" issue instinctively: "You're either going to do it with another man, or, you're going to be doing it with yourself - a man. Either way, this may be more or less than I thought I was getting into/already into."

It's a shame, really, that the OP didn't just call this, "Tell me about your gay life - the one in your head." Having had 19,000 views of the topic as it is labeled, is enough, I think, to make the point that most viewers of this site aren't here for fashion tips....

**ReineD** · 04-06-2010, 09:51 AM