What kind of abuse do the men put up with?

[Ze]

I thought of something the other day. Has anyone ever had to deal with being called "it"? That's another one I've learned to watch out for...

Ugh, yeah. That one always sucks. I don't know about you, Thorny, but it's definitely one of the top self-esteem killers for me. I definitely seem to be in a stage where people can't easily decipher my gender, and plenty of times now I've heard people saying not-so-quietly to each other, "What is it?" Sometimes they sound horrified, sometimes it quickly turns into the joke of the day. Que closest exit.

[lavistaa62]

"..being a man has a LOT less to do with a beard, drinking beer, driving a truck, being a womanizer, or being macho than a lot of males think it does; in fact, in almost every case, those things are indicators that one is NOT a man"

LOL- you go on to reference Hemingway as a man. He may not have driven a truck but he certainly was a pro at all those other things! (beard, Alchoholic, affairs and so on). He was even accused of having an affair with Fitzgerald!

[sexotik]

There's also the feminists who say we're 'betraying our gender'.

Like 4serrus I have also encountered a lot of lesbians and feminists who have called me a traitor and basically abused me for "switching camps" or "betraying my gender". I have also been told that because I am a man, I CAN'T be a feminist o.O

This mindset really caught my attention in an alarming way. Too bad these people can't see that no one's betraying their gender but embracing themselves. So sad and infuriating. It must be really awful and rude to be referred to as "it". F*** them!

PS: I liked it when I read A farewell to Arms by Mr. Hemingway and I read some Kippling. Liked Hemingway better than Kippling. Am I more of a man? Hope not. Guess it's time to read some chick lit.

[NiCo]

"It" is what my father called me for a while before I binned him from my life.

And as for feminists. Lol. I hate them all unless they prove to me otherwise.

In fact, I hate everyone [in real life] to begin with, until they prove to me they are worth my time...hence why I come across as a bit of a pr*ck. Keeps me safe, reminds people that I have a short fuse, and wont stand for their sh*t.

All of what I have been through has caused me to be like this, and I love myself more for it. I don't get hurt as much. It has moulded me; and in a morbid way I’m grateful I’ve had all these idiots test me.

I passed my test btw. they failed, cause they tried to destroy me and instead I became relatively unbreakable. The only person who can hurt me is MYSELF. And I’m quite good at it

[Hope]

Don't you find it a bit ironic that on a sight where we struggle against gender stereotyping to take it upon yourself to define what constitutes being a man? Just sayin'

Well... The thing is, I don't struggle against gender stereotyping. I have no problem doing my darndest to conform to the female stereotype. If for no other reason, I realize that it is much easier to make myself conform to societies stereotype than it is to make society conform to me. Ultimately, trying to get society to change their view on gender just because I want them to accept a 6'2" bass with leg hair as a woman, is like holding back the tide.

What I do think we all struggle against is the common notion that genitalia equals gender. To that end I stand behind my point that being born with a penis does not make a person a man.

"..being a man has a LOT less to do with a beard, drinking beer, driving a truck, being a womanizer, or being macho than a lot of males think it does; in fact, in almost every case, those things are indicators that one is NOT a man"

LOL- you go on to reference Hemingway as a man. He may not have driven a truck but he certainly was a pro at all those other things! (beard, Alchoholic, affairs and so on). He was even accused of having an affair with Fitzgerald!

Fair enough. He also left a sizable portion of his estate to a trust tasked with caring for his house cats, in perpetuity. And yet there are few people who wouldn't include Hemingway on the short list of the manliest people to ever roam the earth. I wonder how that riddle can be solved? Perhaps by defining manhood away from specific actions and interests, and more towards personal qualities and characteristics? Don't miss the forest through all of the trees. Every man needs to define for himself what it means to be a man - but no one is going to agree with the putz who thinks that drinking beer and smelling his farts makes him as much (or more!) of a man as say, the college art professor who dedicates himself to his craft, teaches it to others, and comes home every night to help his wife cook dinner.

Was Hemingway an alcoholic and a womanizer? You bet. But those activities aren't what made him a man. Greatness, generosity, a zeal for adventure, dedication, sacrifice, and a willingness to do what is hard - without whining about it - these are some of the things that make Hemingway a man - in spite of - not because of the alcohol and womanizing.

[Ze]

And as for feminists. Lol. I hate them all unless they prove to me otherwise.

I'm a feminist.

To that end I stand behind my point that being born with a penis does not make a person a man.

True dat.

[NiCo]

You've proved me otherwise.

Espesh the ones who "women are better, women this women that" blah de blah, what were you saying again I was following the tiny crack on the wall...

I'm equality or nothing. Simple. No one is better, no one is worse. Women shouldn't have more rights, men shouldn't have more rights.

The feminists who fight for equality, that's good, fine...but the ones who want more more more...LOLOLOLAGE...no.

[Ze]

Yeah, some feminists are just...no. And unfortunately, they're the ones anti-equalitists (yeah, I just made that word up) target as the stereotype of feminists in order to scare off future feminists.

[Fab Karen]

Yeah, some feminists are just...no. And unfortunately, they're the ones anti-equalitists (yeah, I just made that word up) target as the stereotype of feminists in order to scare off future feminists.

The extreme small sect of them that make up new words ( like "womyn" because women has MEN in it )

And obviously the Ellen Jamesians ( literary allusion )

[Abraxas]

yeah, it's not easier. It's equally hard in different ways....

I thought of something the other day. Has anyone ever had to deal with being called "it"? That's another one I've learned to watch out for...

I was called 'it' quite a bit when I was younger, mostly in jr high, but also elementary and high school to some extent. Either that or the whole 'what are you?' 'Are you a boy or a girl?' all that crap.

I'm passing 100% now, so I don't have to worry about it anymore, but back when I did, it sucked.

[sexotik]

Yeah, some feminists are just...no. And unfortunately, they're the ones anti-equalitists (yeah, I just made that word up) target as the stereotype of feminists in order to scare off future feminists.

The extreme small sect of them that make up new words ( like "womyn" because women has MEN in it )

And obviously the Ellen Jamesians ( literary allusion )

These are blindfolded extreme feminists. I once read that some German female translators were replacing the word "father" for "mother" in the prayer "Our holy father who areth in Heaven..." and alsod they were gonna replace the word "father" for mother in the Bible.

Though this is extreme, I agree with this:my English teachers at college had taught us to use "their" and not "his" or "her" in order to avoid sexism. I didn't know it was quite a "deal" but I've realized it is.

Another teacher had told us about the word "womyn" used by "radical" feminists. I couldn't quite believe it at first but I've become aware that it exists. Then she said: then what about the words "hu-MAN" and "per-SON". I lol'd.

and we've officially spun off the tangent.

[WalT]

Don't get me started on my ex and what he did to me. I'm in therapy for what he did about a year ago on top of trying to get my letter for hormones.

It started "innocuous" at first. He knew, going into the relationship, that I was a female to male.

But apparently all he cared about was sex.

It started with name calling and repeatedly saying "I'm not gay" angrily every time I brought it up. Then he started insinuating I wasn't really a guy and that he could turn me into a chick.

I guess one night he had enough, slipped me a roofie, and had his way with me at who knows what time. I was lucky I didn't die- I had NyQuil and was completely unable to move for almost twenty or thirty minutes after I woke up to that. I honestly can't remember that day or much of that night. But because of that, I've been deeply paranoid about coming out to anyone else, because I trusted this awful evil monster of a person.

I would have pressed charges but I was living with him at the time and scared to death of him. Now I'm thoroughly regretting that considering he is still on campus....

So anytime a male to female says we somehow have it better, I laugh VERY cynically.

[Abraxas]

I think this is somehow related but I've perceived that some straight people think that trans people (tv's and MtF cders in particular) seem to go about life trying to pork others and that they're ready to give a b-job to anyone who asks them.

I think that if tv's or MtF cders try to help someone I don't know by telling him how to get to a place or even smile, some think that Tv's or MtF are trying to pick them up. Some might be on the hunt for a quickie but that doesn't mean we're all are like that.

Does this or something similar happen to transmen/ FtM crossdressers?

I don't get that too much, and if I do it's my own fault for being kind of a ****, haha.
But I think a lot of that might have to do with this perception cis/straight people seem to have that 'oh, nobody wants to sleep with a tranny so they must all be desperate for sex. Easy score!' thing. Or there's the problem with all the porn industry promoting 'she-male' and 'chicks with d*cks' and all that crap.

I could just be pulling that out of thin air, but there may well be some of that kind of thinking.

Don't get me started on my ex and what he did to me. I'm in therapy for what he did about a year ago on top of trying to get my letter for hormones.

It started "innocuous" at first. He knew, going into the relationship, that I was a female to male.

But apparently all he cared about was sex.

It started with name calling and repeatedly saying "I'm not gay" angrily every time I brought it up. Then he started insinuating I wasn't really a guy and that he could turn me into a chick.

I guess one night he had enough, slipped me a roofie, and had his way with me at who knows what time. I was lucky I didn't die- I had NyQuil and was completely unable to move for almost twenty or thirty minutes after I woke up to that. I honestly can't remember that day or much of that night. But because of that, I've been deeply paranoid about coming out to anyone else, because I trusted this awful evil monster of a person.

I would have pressed charges but I was living with him at the time and scared to death of him. Now I'm thoroughly regretting that considering he is still on campus....

So anytime a male to female says we somehow have it better, I laugh VERY cynically.

That sucks a lot, man. I'm really sorry you had to go through that.

My ex wasn't nearly that bad, but he was very disrespectful toward me. Thing was, I was dating an MTF pre-op, pre-HRT TS, who was aware I'm FTM and therefore should have 'gotten' it, but he always called me 'She' and by my birth name just to 'tease' me. He'd say stuff like 'hey, it doesn't matter if people think we're lesbians,' or whatever. And he'd sort of... switch personalities every few days, saying 'oh, I'm (male name) today. None of that girly crap for the next little while.' And it was all sorts of confusing, because he also claimed he wanted to fully transition to female.

And, for the record, I was always respectful when we were going out, and did call him 'she' and 'her' and by his female name. These days, I can't be bothered to afford him the respect he never showed me. I guess you can say that I'm still a little bitter, even 5 years later.

[Ze]

Walt

Yeah, the general threat of rape for FtMs is always a scary thing. I forgot about that one...and it's a massive one. I hate knowing that it still happens to this day.

[NiCo]

Yeah, the general threat of rape for FtMs is always a scary thing. I forgot about that one...and it's a massive one. I hate knowing that it still happens to this day.

The scariest thing is [imo] that it's not just a threat from men, it's a threat from women also as i found out personally.

I always thought i could feel safe in the presence of a woman because it was rarely heard from that a woman would hurt...then i found it was because the media didn't document it as much as the threats from males. Turns out it's equal, just one is more displayed than the rest.

However, everyone is [sadly] at a potential risk from it, men, women whether they are trans or not is not an issue...it just seems we are not protected enough from it and when we decide to take it to the police we are made out to be "lesbians" or "gays" "asking for it" as what happened with me. I was apparently a lesbian…asking for a lesbian to do that to me. Even thought I only had interest in men at that stage in my life, before I figured out about sexuality. Just because I looked “like one”.

It’s sad.

[Ze]

You're completely right, Nico. Rape is a threat and hard enough to get protection from and justice for any group, though obviously some groups have a harder time than others because of stereotypes.

[WalT]

You're completely right, Nico. Rape is a threat and hard enough to get protection from and justice for any group, though obviously some groups have a harder time than others because of stereotypes.

Yeah, sad thing is, society's attitude towards rape in general is still pretty appalling. There are still TONS of people who adhere to the myth that people, women ESPECIALLY in particular, "ask for it" or "they obviously did something to deserve it." And that's a dangerous sort of mentality, not to mention scarring for anyone who has been a survivor.

Other than that I haven't experienced much violence as an adult. And I'm not even "out" yet to more than two people I know (well, one I knew). Thankfully the other person (who is my partner and a MtF) is far more accepting of me and, well, tons more comfortable with their sexuality. It's just amazing what a little (well, a LOT) internalized homophobia will do to a person, ugh....

I guess my biggest regret is that I wasted my time on that fellow. It really bugs me, to this day, that if I hadn't have dated him, I could have had my letter by now. Sucks, but there's nothing I can do about it now except be a little more cautious.

Wish I could say I wasn't paranoid, because I am. Who do I come out to, before it's majorly obvious? Who do I surround myself with? Who do I trust?

for everyone.

And NiCo... yeah, I know what you're saying. Women can be flat out vicious too. Male rape and male victims of domestic abuse generally goes very unreported, due to a combination of shame and a societal view that "women would never do that."

I'm just really cynical about the messed up views that society can take sometimes. >.<

[Nicole Erin]

I definitely seem to be in a stage where people can't easily decipher my gender, and plenty of times now I've heard people saying not-so-quietly to each other, "What is it?" Sometimes they sound horrified, sometimes it quickly turns into the joke of the day. Que closest exit.

Ze, I am about that stage too. Fun that people are such pr^cks.

With the FTM's who are at that stage, wouldn't it be that people would quicker assume "male" cause people see and hear a lot about MTF.

I figure maybe it is like this -
Someone sees a person and cannot figure their gender.
People expect GM's to cross gender boundries but not so much for GG's to do so. I think there are probably 20 MTF to each one FTM.

So like say like an FTM was out, guy jeans, shirt, short hair, looking quite manly, I mean wouldn't people just assume "male"? I mean even if he didn't pass perfectly?

I think all "gender" can appreciate this one but what kind of nerve and lack of manners would someone have to have to ask another human being, "are you a man or a woman?" I mean for real, WTF?!?

[NiCo]

So like say like an FTM was out, guy jeans, shirt, short hair, looking quite manly, I mean wouldn't people just assume "male"? I mean even if he didn't pass perfectly?

More likely to assume "lesbian" actually.

[Thornton]

yeah, if we don't pass well enough, we get mistaken as butch lesbians...which I assume is especially annoying if you're a gay transman.

[Abraxas]

yeah, if we don't pass well enough, we get mistaken as butch lesbians...which I assume is especially annoying if you're a gay transman.

Ohhhhhhh yeah. Luckily for me, I haven't dealt with that in a long time.

[Andy66]

People expect GM's to cross gender boundries but not so much for GG's to do so. I think there are probably 20 MTF to each one FTM.

Which is exactly why people assume lesbian. There are probably more lesbians than there are FtMs, and they can look physically similar.

I think all "gender" can appreciate this one but what kind of nerve and lack of manners would someone have to have to ask another human being, "are you a man or a woman?" I mean for real, WTF?!?

...erm... For the record, I've never asked anyone that, but I have been in situations where I've had to skirt the issue - a friend of a friend whose name could be either male or female. Is there a polite way of asking how they would like to be addressed?

[SirTrey]

When a person is really androgynous and you just can't tell, probably best just to avoid using pronouns altogether and don't use either Sir or Ma'am.....and that's honestly not that hard to do....There really is no delicate or polite way to ask...at least not one that I can think of.

[Andy66]

Thanks, Trey. That's what I did, and it felt awkward. But not as awkward as asking would have been. It would have been so much more comfortable if I had known how to refer to the person. Talking TO them was the easy part. Talking ABOUT them was a challenge It's all about the pronouns...
"Your friend Pat is inviting us to, er, Pat's and Pat's girlfriend's party. What should I tell ...er... Pat?"

[noeleena]

Hi.
As i was reading through your posts here . one thing has stood out . & that is regardless of wether we are male female or a mix of both . i know some can not handle being called male ..men . or female .. woman .
because of how we see our selfs . or how we relate to others around us .

The word acceptance. is more important. now i would say it is for most of us here. in. / on this forum .
Now out in the real world is it the same . how you get on. with people . for some . you are not doing very well .
now age to will have a bearing on how we get on . i m 62 yet i get respect from both male & females . women . alike .
The word acceptance . i was not sure if i would get that from people . i have . & in the main for me in n z .
it has been good as the people up & down the county where ever i go have been more accepting .
I wont say every one . yet with in the trans community . there seems to be for some as you say . a underlying indifference from a number of lesbain s . & femenists . & a few gays & as has been said . we have undermind thier . what they think is thier make up . so retaliate against us . thier insecuirtes .
now this in the main does not appear in the older people i deal with . the odd one or two yes .
so is this the young ones trying to prove them selfs to be better than any one else. i dont have any thing to prove .
& being a andro . i dont have . the concerns of . i have to be a male or a female . yet i m accepted as a woman ....
Psychologically ..mentalally .. & emotionally seem to me to be the points i see effecting us . & some of those around us in how we move & work . in our communitys . not allways how we look .
I know its not easy for any of us .

To live as to how we see our selfs is how others should see us . & accept us ...

...noeleena...