For those who can't pass, #2

[Stephenie S]

Just a quick comment on many of the posts I read in the "for those who can't pass" thread.

It struck me that MANY of the members who answered the original post stated that they could "pass" until they opened their mouths. While there is absolutely NOTHING that can be done about height, shoulder width, hand and foot size, etc., VOICE is something that CAN be changed. ANYONE can develop a feminine voice with practice. In effort, it's similar to learning a foreign language, or learning a musical instrument.

So saying and believing that one cannot "pass" because of voice is an interesting point of view. Think about it.

Stephie

[Shikyo]

Not everyone can develop a feminine voice no matter how hard they try. The voice can be damage enough for example through overusing your voice too many times that you can't make a higher pitch voice anymore without it hurting like hell if even possible.

However, there are so many girls with surprising deep voices that one would have to have a very deep voice to actually not pass because of voice. It also depends of the language how "high" the voice sounds at least this is what I've noticed that in certain countries the girls general voice is much deeper than in some languages. The same goes for male voices.

[Stephenie S]

You may THINK you cannot develop a feminine sounding voice, but you are wrong. With effort and practice it can be done by anyone. I said NOTHING about pitch. A feminine sounding voice has little to do with pitch. As you pointed out yourself already, many women have surprisingly low pitched voices.

Stephie

[Shikyo]

You may THINK you cannot develop a feminine sounding voice, but you are wrong. With effort and practice it can be done by anyone. I said NOTHING about pitch. A feminine sounding voice has little to do with pitch. As you pointed out yourself already, many women have surprisingly low pitched voices.

Stephie

I NEVER mentioned that I would have a problem with MY VOICE or PASSING. For your record I do LIVE as a GIRL all the time without any issues, which includes my voice. So please, READ my comment the way it is WITHOUT adding facts that aren't even there.

It's true that higher pitch doesn't make a voice feminine but it very well does it make much easier. Feminine voice is generally softer than male voice. However, physical damage can create a cracking sound, deeper voice, louder voice etc. which are generally male voices. Some of these cannot be fixed with anything thus it makes it impossible for them to get a more feminine voice just because it's not possible for them to control their voice anymore.

As you seem to be so set that everyone can learn to have a more feminine voice. What about the people who can't talk at all or barely? Can they have a more feminine voice? Deaf people? etc.

I do agree that generally most people should be able to learn a more feminine voice but definitely not everyone. However, there are cases where I don't believe it's possible for them at all.

Not to forget that I don't think that voice plays all that big role in passing or not.

[Karren H]

it to death...............

[Stephenie S]

Karren, is that a hat or a hammer?

[ErikaLeigh]

While I think there are quite a few that CAN change their voice, there are SOME that cant, we have a few in our local tri-ess group that have tried and it is impossible. Some male voices just dont lend well to change, even with a voice coach, hormones, etc.

[Stephenie S]

Sorry Shiky,

I didn't mean to impugn your vocal accomplishments. My point still stands, however. Many on this forum stated that VOICE was the only roadblock to their "passing". I was merely pointing out that voice, as opposed to height and other body sizes and shapes, was one of the few things that IS under our control.

There are many who say they can't learn a foreign language, or can't learn an instrument. This usually means that they are unwilling or unable to put in the effort needed. A feminine sounding voice IS within the grasp of anyone willing and open enough to learn.

Now where's that hammer? There's always SOMEONE that can take issue with my pronouncements.

Stephie.

[Joni Marie Cruz]

Hi Ladies-

I have to respectfully disagree with Stephnie that ANYONE can develop a female voice, sweeping statements like that are logically impossible and leave some people feeling like they are failures.

However, I do think that most people can develop a more feminine sounding voice with practice and application. One of the points of confusion may be between pitch and vocal range. Many women, Bea Arthur and Cher come immediately to mind, have rather low pitched voices, however, the use more of their vocal range than men do. Women's voices are more melodic, while men's voices tend to monotonous, literally a near monotone. When women wish to emphasize something in normal speech they raise the pitch of their voice, men tend to emphasize by speaking more loudly or emphatically.

If you can practice and apply using more of your vocal range, then you can sound more feminine. It's not necessarily a huge range, either, maybe a half octave or so. For instance the first two notes of Somewhere Over the Rainbow are an octave apart, if you can even get close then you have enough range to work with.

As far as it being the most difficult part of a femme persona, I totally agree, I can get it down, but keeping it up for long periods of times is stressful and wearing, at least to me.

Good luck and Happy Holidays.

Hugs...Joni Mari

[Shikyo]

Sorry Shiky,

I didn't mean to impugn your vocal accomplishments. My point still stands, however. Many on this forum stated that VOICE was the only roadblock to their "passing". I was merely pointing out that voice, as opposed to height and other body sizes and shapes, was one of the few things that IS under our control.

Stephie.

Don't worry about it so much. I'm glad we're getting more into a understanding. *giggles* You're not the only one noticing that how many people seem to make the "voice" the deciding factor instead of other signs, which I myself believe are much stronger when people decide whether one is male or female. Voice is too changeable to actually use it as a mean to decide someone sex, at least I think so and I doubt I'm all alone with it. Unlike some body signs like big hands, shape of head, shoulders etc., which are generally like that because of high amount of testosterone.

As for my vocal "accomplishment" my voice was always kinda feminine, so it never was truly a problem. I'm only keeping it little higher than before but besides that I haven't really done much. Even that I'm doing only because I can't stand feeling the vibrations of my own voice no matter how light they might be.

[Kate Simmons]

So are you implying here that women speak a foreign language Stephie? Gosh, whoulda figured?

[Shikyo]

So are you implying here that women speak a foreign language Stephie? Gosh, whoulda figured?

No, no, no. You've gotten it totally wrong. It's men who don't speak the same language as girls!

[sherri52]

I have a strong Boston accent, not really deep but it is not easily changed. I have been unsuccessful so far after multible tries over the past 45 yrs. I still go out enfemme, I don't use my voice as an excuse.

[Vanessa5]

I have gone out and used my femme voice. At first it didn't seem natural but it is a work in progress. And yesterday I was called a ma'am. So exciting!

[sandra-leigh]

There are many who say they can't learn a foreign language, or can't learn an instrument. This usually means that they are unwilling or unable to put in the effort needed.

At the risk of -- there are a small number of people like me whose internal clock is "free-run" rather than more or less a constant frequency; to put it another way, we can't "keep time". (And yes, my doctor put it in writing. )

The hammers... well, I found these:







:CheshireGummi:

[Stephenie S]

Well, in a sense, yes, women do speak a foreign language. But it's not exactly a "language", it's more of an "accent".

My sweet sister, although petite and cute as a button, is a dyke lesbian. She speaks with a male accent, and reports that she gets "sirred" on the phone all the time. Her vocal range is well within normal limits for a female voice. What is needed to develop a feminine sounding voice is to develop that "accent" that identifies one as female.

I am listening to all of you that maintain that for some it is impossible. And, of course, for some it will be. Silky mentioned those who are deaf or can barely speak at all. There will always be an exception to any rule.

But for most, and for anyone with a normal male voice and the will to work at it, it IS possible to find that female accent that identifies Cher and Bea Aurthur as women even though they speak well within the male vocal range.

I often get into trouble on this forum because I am prone to making broad sweeping statements. However, I have years of experience to draw on and I rarely make such pronouncements without at least some concrete knowledge to base them on. What I suggested in the OP was to "think about it". Many of you have done just that, and, I hope, learned something.

Lovies,
Stephenie

[MJ]

Stephnie i disagree with you that anyone can develop a female voice not true at all god i have tried can't do it

[Persephone]

It struck me that MANY of the members who answered the original post stated that they could "pass" until they opened their mouths. While there is absolutely NOTHING that can be done about height, shoulder width, hand and foot size, etc., VOICE is something that CAN be changed. ANYONE can develop a feminine voice with practice. In effort, it's similar to learning a foreign language, or learning a musical instrument.

Stephie

Stephenie,

There seem to be many different programs, speech therapists, voice coaches, and the like out there. Do you have some specific suggestions about methods that you think are particularly effective?

Are there ways to determine whether a speech therapist or voice coach is particularly well qualified when it comes to helping us in this specific area?

Thanks,
Persephone.

[Nicole Erin]

Stephnie i disagree with you that anyone can develop a female voice not true at all god i have tried can't do it

MJ here is why -
Most programs that talk about developing a femme voice either have a ton of fluff or irrelevant stuff. So yeah it is hard to know what to do...

First step really is working on the resonance... tone is there yeah but it seems to come a bit more natural once you got the resonance...

Think of gargling. Try it. or hawking a L00g. Try it. Notice how there are different muscles in your throat? OK, ty talking while constricting different muscles...

NOW, keep in mind the bottom muscles in the throat, when closed off somewhat, while top muscles open, is what creates a resonance that lacks bass. It is not the be-all end all but it IS a very solid starting point to work from.
"But Erin, in your infinite moronicness wisdom, can you tell me how I know if I am doing it right?"
Yeah this is a hard thing to know, like taking shots in the dark. However, just experiment with different muscles in the throat, and the lower ones should be restricted, not totally, but you need to develop control of those muscles, something that most people are not used to. It is a new exercise, but you will get it.

"But Erin..."
Yes you are right, at first practicing DOES feel really silly. You must get past that. Record your voice when practicing and listen back.. You just might be suprised that it sounds more femme than you thought. The voice you hear inside your head when you talk is different than what the rest of the world hears.

I am no expert but my voice can pass as female, I have tested this a few times and people have not said anything to the contrary, I even would be in SL and come out with the male voice and people are like "oh wow..."

Need a place to practice and get feedback? online games that offer voice help, I like Second Life.

Oh hey also I assume most have seen candi's voice videos. You heard her male voice? You mean to tell me your voice is more masculine than THAT?

It is not too late to train your own voice.
(stands like drill instructor and blows whistle) Alright ladies, let's TRAIN those voices!

[suchacutie]

First, Karren, I translated your statement as "beat it to death" and I'll try not to do that.

OK...here goes. Over the last year I worked out how to cut off the bass section of my vocal area. The U-tube videos mentioned on other threads like this one were really useful! But...even with the correct pitch and tenor, my voice was not feminine!!!! (okok...we are talking about AVERAGES here. My voice was not the "typical/average/easily passable" feminine voice; a kind of voice that no one would take a second notice with dressed en femme)

Why not? First of all, without the bass I realized that I use that bass part of my voice for almost ALL of my tonal inflections. So, take that away and you've got one weird voice! I went back to the web and also started to listen to women more carefully. Others have said that the female voice is more melodic. Well, that's primarily because they don't have that bass part to rely on! They use the rest the way we normally don't, so the first thing is to develop your own signature voice patterns. This is not pitch, it's tone patterns with whatever pitch you have.

Lastly, there just IS a difference in word usage, on the average. Again, we're trying to generate voices that aren't "noticed" as anything outside of the feminine norm. I spend a lot of time listening to women conversing, introducing themselves, starting conversations, ending conversations...it's fascinating, really.

So, my is that with whatever pitch or tenor you want, the next step is tonal inflections and language usage. They go hand in hand with an easily "usable" voice. (notice I hate the word passable so avoided it!) My other is that the tonal inflections and word usage will affect the tonal pitch and tenor, which will affect the tonal inflections, and back and forth until you've settled in on a "voice" that IS your femme voice.

In that sense I do agree with Stephanie that most of a "feminine" voice is learning, not in pitch or tenor change. I do think that pitch and tenor change helps but it's not the holy grail of a feminine voice.

This is just my experience and I hope it offends no one, and maybe helps someone

tina

[docrobbysherry]

Here's a Utube video explaining one girl's method for succesfull change from male to female speech. To me, it looks like lipsynching for the "male" speech. However, I practiced the falsetto for a few minutes. Then, tried moving to a range BETWEEN the falsetto, and my normal range. IT WORKED! I couldn't keep it up for long. But, I probably COULD with continued practice. And, it sounded fairly fem, AND NOT FORCED!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbaj4...eature=related

[lissetta]

My femme voice has a mind of its own.

[Ugly Michele]

I just whine.

[Stephenie S]

I have listened to and purchased many of the voice courses out there and I have taken lessons from a Masters prepared Speech/Language Pathologist at the local university.

It's my experience that none of them work without lots and lots work on your part. They ALL require more effort than the average crossdresser is willing or able to put in. The fastest way to get your feminine voice up and running, in my opinion, is to go full time. Having to USE your feminine voice 24/7 sort of insures the nessessary practice. As long as you can slip back into your guy voice when it becomes convenient, you are likely to get lazy.

Now, I realize that this is a CROSSDRESSING forum, not a transgender forum, and that the average crossdresser is just NOT going to be able to put out the effort needed to do this. That was not my point. I was making a simple observation. That's all. I probably don't need to do that again, but I will. I simply noticed and remarked on the fact that many here had mentioned that it was their VOICE that got them "read", and VOICE, as opposed to height or shoulder width is one of the few characteristics that we CAN control.

Despite numerous claims to the contrary here, the fact remains that voice CAN be altered. Actors do it all the time. So does EVERY successful transgendered woman, and believe me, there are lots of them. This IS possible.

Auntie Stephenie

[Shikyo]

I have listened to and purchased many of the voice courses out there and I have taken lessons from a Masters prepared Speech/Language Pathologist at the local university.

You seem to have a lot of experience in this area, so I was wondering if you would give us an example of what all your hard work has brought you. Just create an audio file with your male voice and your female voice.

It's my experience that none of them work without lots and lots work on your part. They ALL require more effort than the average crossdresser is willing or able to put in. The fastest way to get your feminine voice up and running, in my opinion, is to go full time. Having to USE your feminine voice 24/7 sort of insures the nessessary practice. As long as you can slip back into your guy voice when it becomes convenient, you are likely to get lazy.

Honestly, is there anything in this world that doesn't require lots of effort if you want to become good in it?

Now, I realize that this is a CROSSDRESSING forum, not a transgender forum, and that the average crossdresser is just NOT going to be able to put out the effort needed to do this. That was not my point. I was making a simple observation. That's all. I probably don't need to do that again, but I will. I simply noticed and remarked on the fact that many here had mentioned that it was their VOICE that got them "read", and VOICE, as opposed to height or shoulder width is one of the few characteristics that we CAN control.

What is the point of bringing this up if you yourself think that the average crossdresser ain't going to be able to put the effort needed to get a feminine voice?

Despite numerous claims to the contrary here, the fact remains that voice CAN be altered. Actors do it all the time. So does EVERY successful transgendered woman, and believe me, there are lots of them. This IS possible.

Auntie Stephenie

I really don't think anyone here is trying to deny that voice can be altered but more so that not everyone is able to alter their voice. Also that it's easier for some people than for others.

There is a slight difference between an actor and a normal person. Actors are doing their job when they become something they aren't. The ones who actually do their job well have most likely had many years of professional career in acting. Therefore they have had long time to polish their skills. Oh right, did I mention that they get PAID for doing that? We on the other hand have to do it on our own time, on our own cost. Nor can most of us afford getting professional voice training. I really don't think you can compare transgendered people to actors.