Where's The line?

[Karen564]

I think it is a matter of feeling good as you dress like a woman or feeling like a woman when you dress.

Yeah, sorta kinda, but still a bit more complex than that. The clothes become irreverent (secondary), their just a means of not going out naked..

But as things get fixed, they do become important again, but your still very aware that their just clothes..

In my humble opinion, the line is drawn when you see the surgeon draw all the incision lines on your penis just before surgery..

[Schatten Lupus]

My fiance suggested that I try just crossdressing, and staying male. I decided it would be fair to give this a try. But what ended up happening, the more I started to dress around home, the more I felt "right", and the more of an urge I felt to transition.

[kayesimone]

i get confused when i have to decide also...
much better to just be...
but i love all the opinions and definitions...
i find shopping helps...

[Karen564]

One thing though - if you claim the label TS, then some other CD or TS folks are gonna tell you "you are not really TS because..." and have a bunch of reasons.
And to hell with what they think.

Yeah, Exactly!!!!!! What the hell do they know......LOL

Here is an interesting note - there is no fail-safe test to determine if someone is TS or not, if someone knew how to tell for sure, then how come there is no true test?

But there is!!!!!.......... I'm very surprised you dont know that...

[ReineD]

There was a thread, "Fog Buster", discussing a TSs take on transition. Her writing was dramatic at times, but many members here agreed with her.

This quote is the TSs conclusion in Part ! of her discourse:

You Shouldn’t Transition If…

You shouldn’t transition if you are a crossdresser, transvestite, or drag queen… if you have pictures of yourself on the net that are sexual in nature or of you in a hotel room… if female clothing turns you on… if you go to meetings at a crossdresser club, a transsexual club, or a gay rights group… if you are “out and proud” (lesbians don’t count)… if you took a *******ization of a male name for your female name…if you took something like “Luvs” or “Aphrodite” or some other overly-feminine, ridiculous, childish word or name as part or all of your new name… if you hang out in drag bars… if your friends hang out in drag bars… if you have a “drag mother”… if you go out in 6” heels and mini skirts… if you own 6” heels and mini skirts… if you do not own a pair of jeans and sneakers… if you penetrate men in the anus during sexual intercourse… if you “dress up” to masturbate… if you can’t have sex naked… if you think playing with your breasts after they grow would be “cool”… if you want to be a porn star or an escort after you transition… if you can’t visit with every single one of your co-workers, friends, family, children, parents, or anyone else on the planet for that matter, afterwards… if you still own a single item of male clothing… if you display photos of the “old” you… if you still have a single piece of your male life intact… if you still go out as a male for any reason now… if you do not plan on, are working towards, or already have tried to get GRS… if you do not have a plan that will see you through to stealth and beyond… if you think your voice doesn’t need work… if you consider yourself a “transgender”, “gender ****”, or label yourself as anything other than a woman… if you describe yourself as “sexually confused”, a “freak”, or un-definable… if you plan on being a transsexual rather than a woman… if you want to keep your penis… if you think it will be easy… if you start a fight when you get clocked… if you haven’t seen a psychiatrist, a doctor, and a lawyer yet… if you get your hormones without a legitimate prescription while under a doctors care… if you want more out of the transition than what any other woman out there has now… if you think transitioning will make you happy… if you want to become a transsexual, or, if you want to become a woman.

Women are born, they are not created.

[DanaR]

Personally, labels don't mean a thing, unless you have a need for categorization. I think labels tend to take away from the fun and satisfaction of being TG'ed (oops, there goes another label)!! Don't worry about what to call yourself...just enjoy the experience and carry it far as you want it to go.

I would have to agree with this. Years ago, I realized that I was more of a TS than a CD. Looking around within the community and seeing all or the heartache that usually accompanies someone transitioning; I just couldn't do this to my family. My wife has been very understanding and supportive; plus we really like each other.

About ten years ago, while at a TG convention, I was eating lunch when the girl (TS) sitting beside me asked how long I have been transitioning? My reply was that I wasn't, her response was "oh, it's just a hobby". I really was offended by the comment. What I've realized over the years is that the people you would expect to understand, just don't.

[SchnauzerLogic]

... I always had a hard time understanding exactly what a transsexual is. For example, listen to a podcast of Robin Diane Goldstein (Schnauzer Logic) on TransFM and you will never know that the voice behind the microphone is a MTF transsexual. Maybe everyone is different...

hi Nathalie (and all of you other wacky kids!)... i don't frequent the crossdressers.com forums, but a google alert told me that my name was being bandied about and as a complete narcissistic egomaniac, i had to check it out!

if you listen to our little show (and -bless you- if you do!) you'll know that i refer to myself as a "straight, white, buddhist, vegetarian, lesbian fraternity boy trapped in the body of a recovering transsexual woman patent attorney with a bizarre sense of humor and a master's degree in city planning" i came up with this extended bio primarily to thwart (wow! cool word!) the notion that i could be understood or defined by a single word... in my experience human beings are far too complex to be reduced to a label, and yet, that was begin done to me both in and outside the gender community (in connection with both gender and non-gender traits)... i could have made the list go on forever (i discover new traits about myself every day) but figured this was the most concise way to begin to describe myself in answer to the question, "and you are.....?"

in addition, as you can also probably tell from my shows, i bristle at even the possibility of allowing others to define me... when i transitioned the first time i did it in the company of much-smarter-than-me folks like Leslie Feinberg and Rikki Anne Wilchins and Nancy Nangeroni, who tried to get me to see (after much shouting and copious amounts of alcohol) that the act of 'naming' something or someone is an act of power and that the primary reason to label something is to justify the exclusion of those things which are 'other'... i realize as i type this that this is a very abstract and semantic argument, and i struggled for a long time with my counter argument, "but why can't i just be a girl!" but eventually (and i mean a LOT of alcohol later) i began to see that not only could i be a girl, but i had the right to define what 'girl' is for me (not for everyone, just for me)... its a pretty powerful notion to consider that we get to define our own reality and the terms used to understand that reality, but in the end, that was the philosophy that made sense to me (again, only to me)...

which brings me to the second point, the voice i use on Schnauzer Logic... when i transitioned the first time i was still hanging on to the idea that anything that someone else could use to identify me as 'male' would have to go... i loved my 'male' voice and being on the radio (i started at a small AM station at 16), and in fact it was one of the few aspects of my 'male' self that i did enjoy and embrace (i'm also an excellent bowler)... but after my first transition i assumed it would have to go... five years later i realized i missed being on the radio so much that i cut some demos in my female voice (passable i've been told, especially over the phone or a mic) and eventually went back to broadcasting school to hone my skills and learn the new technology, and for about 9 months i did regular shows and commercials and production in my 'Robin' voice and no one seemed to pay much attention and i got good grades and a chance to be creative, but one day i was on the air and happened to look at the large studio window... normally the lights outside were on, but on this day they were off and the studio glass formed a mirror and i saw myself behind the mic (like a thousand times before) and had a wave of audio-dysphoria... i now looked as i wanted, but didn't sound as i wanted, for the job i was doing... i struggled with this but didn't come to any resolution as about 6 months later i transitioned again (interesting story, not relevant here)... with my new/new identity my old radio/performance voice seemed acceptable, and so i went back on the air using the voice that was a part of me that i had always loved. then about 3 years later i was diagnosed with kidney cancer and taking stock realized that i was glad i had transitioned the first time and was glad i had transitioned again and after experiencing multiple configurations of the same body, soul and identity there was no 'perfect' solution... living as 'boy' me, a large part of my identity was stifled and living as 'girl' me, a large part of my identity was stifled, too... neither was completely right, both were part right and if living as 'girl' me made me even just 1/2% happier than living as 'boy' me, then that was the right choice (once again, for =me=)... so after surviving kidney cancer i transitioned again (btw, i never go 'back'... i always go forward, just sometimes passing over the same spot)... but what do to about being on the radio, the love for which i had rekindled... i tried using my 'girl' voice, but that still seemed inauthentic, and then i remembered some of that post modern, deconstructionist philosophical BS that Rikki and Nancy and Leslie had introduced me to... it was a quote from Judith Butler ("Gender Trouble" and "Bodies that Matter") and it went:

"...an open society, therefore, will permit the adoption and discarding of identities in accordance with the task at hand..."

i had found my permission slip! i could use any damn voice i wanted and adopt any damn identity i wanted 'in accordance with the task at hand'.

so, with the visually incongruous (to others, i'd imagine) voice (or perhaps audibly incongruous, if you'd only heard me and never seen me), i went back on the radio feeling authentic in my body and sounding authentic in my head...

i am an actor and a performer and when i am behind the mic i am acting and performing, and so i give myself permission to use whatever tools at my disposal to give the best performance i can... if you meet me, i don't sound as i do on the radio... when i answer the phone or go to work or out with friends or interact with the world in any other way (even when i'm interviewed on other shows) i use the voice that feels appropriate to the task at hand (the voice that more closely matches what i look like)... but when i'm deep inside my head looking for a way to connect over a microphone deep inside your head... well, for me (okay, already... we get it!) that other voice is the right tool for the job.

anyway, enough bloviating! find a way to enjoy the exploration, don't let anyone else define you (even me!) and if you're looking for a laugh, feel free to check out any of the episodes of Schnauzer Logic available on iTunes or at the show blog at www.SchnauzerLogic.com

Merry Merry, Happy Happy!
namaste
robin

[Marcie4you]

What a wealth of information to digest....since I don't do this for perverted sex reasons, I guess I am trans for lack of a better word to use....

Thank-you all for your words of wisdom!

Marcie

[NathalieX66]

Thanks Robin, my apologies if needed.
As we all can see how good I am at crossing the line by mentioning someone's name, and got those rumor birds a flying . I think Robin explained it eloquenly how complicated people are. Since I know you don't frequent here much, I pm'ed you anyway.
Now I'll shut up.



.

[Karen564]

hi Nathalie (and all of you other wacky kids!)... i don't frequent the crossdressers.com forums, but a google alert told me that my name was being bandied about and as a complete narcissistic egomaniac, i had to check it out!

Well then Robin, maybe it's time for you to visit here more often then!!!!...even if it's just for personal entertainment purposes.. and of course if your ever in need for show topics, there's definitely an abundant supply of them in here, it's a great site, enjoy....lol

Have a great Holiday

[Danielle76]

This line does indeed exist, at least for me. I'm a cross dresser, but I don't consider myself a TG. My logic is this: I don't feel like I'm a female in a man's body. I like to dress up in women's clothing purely for sexual reasons, not because I have a gender identity issue.

That's my two cents.

[Schatten Lupus]

One thing though - if you claim the label TS, then some other CD or TS folks are gonna tell you "you are not really TS because..." and have a bunch of reasons.
And to hell with what they think.

That is one of the reasons I don't like associating with other transwomen online; all the damned nit-picking. The way I see it, I know who I am on the inside, and damn anyone who wants to challenge it.

You Shouldn’t Transition If…

You shouldn’t transition if you are a crossdresser, transvestite, or drag queen… if you have pictures of yourself on the net that are sexual in nature or of you in a hotel room… if female clothing turns you on… if you go to meetings at a crossdresser club, a transsexual club, or a gay rights group… if you are “out and proud” (lesbians don’t count)… if you took a *******ization of a male name for your female name…if you took something like “Luvs” or “Aphrodite” or some other overly-feminine, ridiculous, childish word or name as part or all of your new name… if you hang out in drag bars… if your friends hang out in drag bars… if you have a “drag mother”… if you go out in 6” heels and mini skirts… if you own 6” heels and mini skirts… if you do not own a pair of jeans and sneakers… if you penetrate men in the anus during sexual intercourse… if you “dress up” to masturbate… if you can’t have sex naked… if you think playing with your breasts after they grow would be “cool”… if you want to be a porn star or an escort after you transition… if you can’t visit with every single one of your co-workers, friends, family, children, parents, or anyone else on the planet for that matter, afterwards… if you still own a single item of male clothing… if you display photos of the “old” you… if you still have a single piece of your male life intact… if you still go out as a male for any reason now… if you do not plan on, are working towards, or already have tried to get GRS… if you do not have a plan that will see you through to stealth and beyond… if you think your voice doesn’t need work… if you consider yourself a “transgender”, “gender ****”, or label yourself as anything other than a woman… if you describe yourself as “sexually confused”, a “freak”, or un-definable… if you plan on being a transsexual rather than a woman… if you want to keep your penis… if you think it will be easy… if you start a fight when you get clocked… if you haven’t seen a psychiatrist, a doctor, and a lawyer yet… if you get your hormones without a legitimate prescription while under a doctors care… if you want more out of the transition than what any other woman out there has now… if you think transitioning will make you happy… if you want to become a transsexual, or, if you want to become a woman.

[COLOR="Teal"]While I do agree with most of these, I am puzzled about "can't have sex naked part." I fail to see what being clothed or unclothed during sex would have to do with transitioning.

[Shikyo]

[COLOR="Teal"]While I do agree with most of these, I am puzzled about "can't have sex naked part." I fail to see what being clothed or unclothed during sex would have to do with transitioning.

I think it would have something to do with the feeling towards your own genitalia. When you're naked, you can feel it much better compared to wearing panties. If you think about it for a male to female wearing boxers shouldn't be that pleasurable feeling either because it's rather lose while wearing boxers.

Myself, I'm not comfortable being fully naked because of that simple fact. I really wouldn't be surprised if other transsexuals would feel similar.

[ReineD]

Hi Robin, welome to the forum!! I loved reading your story and also your postitive, upbeat attitude. I hope you will consider coming back, if you have time. You've gone ahead and followed your heart and you would be an inspiration to many TGs here!

[Schatten Lupus]

Myself, I'm not comfortable being fully naked because of that simple fact. I really wouldn't be surprised if other transsexuals would feel similar.

I'm pretty much the same way. I avoid looking in that general direction when I shower, and the only other time I am every naked is when I am making love to my SO. I'm not really that uncomfortable during that though, but the focus, for me at least, isn't on mine or her genitals, but rather on an intimate connection. That I think is the only way I can be comfortable during sex. All the sex partners I've had before her weren't bad themselves, I just did not enjoy it to the point I never climaxed.

[Brandi Wyne]

Maybe it's the "line" that has been drawn in our own mind of the point of commitment that might separate one from being a casual, somtimes dresser in clothes, makeup, etc. of the opposite sex and being of that sex, or gender, in mind and spirit.

Or it could just be the one Johnny Cash sang about walking.

I'm still working on the line between the present and the past.

[kellycan27]

[COLOR="Teal"]

[COLOR="Teal"]While I do agree with most of these, I am puzzled about "can't have sex naked part." I fail to see what being clothed or unclothed during sex would have to do with transitioning.

I think it has more to with being comfortable naked, but not in regards to your genitals..more being comfortable with being ( in my case a girl). A lot of people say.. I have a fantasy about being with a man while dressed, but not so when not . When the clothes come off are you still comfortable and still see yourself as a girl? or does it become a turn-off because you see it as 2 naked guys? Do you need to keep your girl clothes on to have sex?

[Joanne f]

The answer only lies within yourself .

[MizT]

Why must we have labels? I really don't know.

[Bridget Fitzgerald]

Why must we have labels? I really don't know.

Because here in the real world "labels" are used by people like judges and surgeons to define statistical categories for legal issues and diagnostic criteria.

To the original poster, the very best thing anyone who is experiencing worsening gender conflict can do in a post-internet world is to unplug for a bit. The internet can become something of a mass delusion at worst. It can also be a place where others fan your flame in a subconscious effort to live vicariously through someone else. Completely separate yourself from trans-anything online for a month or so and see if it persists. Then if it does, take it from there.

[suchacutie]

I've read many similar threads on this site, and after I've read all the many, many entries I have to admit to being a bit depressed. There always seems to be the reference to our "hobby" if we are not transitioning to another gender. I have to admit that is more than irksome. I don't want to transition to "just" one gender. Does that mean that I'm not committed to Tina? I sure the devil think I'm pretty committed! Who the heck would put themselves through all this without committment?

I seem to have a masculine and feminine side. They are quite different, and I am very comfortable with both of me! Tina is very happy with herself. She has existed as a real feminine self for a bit over four years now and she is certainly here to stay! There is nothing sexual about her at all. There is no fetish. What is there? There is a need to know who that feminine person is, and to let her be herself...to let her exist.

Labels? I guess that word "bi-gendered" comes to mind. I need both of my genders. They are who I am. Does that mean I have "transitioned"? I guess in a way it has. Tina exists and will continue to do so. It's not a hobby, it's a commitment to acknowledging what exists and living that existance.

tina

[NathalieX66]

There always seems to be the reference to our "hobby" if we are not transitioning to another gender.

Gender ain't no hobby.
I cannot speak for anybody except myself. We are unique, and we whould be grateful for who we are.
I decided how I wanted to exist, and present myself as I am.
Hobbies are things like restoring old cars or building replicas of 17h century firearms (which I do), and needlepoint too! (which I like).

Yeah, I like dresses too.

Just go.

[Danica_7]

For me , crossdressing has been a glimpse or a trial of "being female"

theres no sexual attraction to the clothing. I always dress down, to look like a genetic female.
I've had natural voice, and a large amount of natural feminine-ness to my actions.

What it was for me, was introspection. I dont identify as a male, nor do i feel like i have a lot in common with many males.

I looked into myself and meditated on this. I realize that i've always wanted to be a female from like the age of 6.

I realized that i had more in common with TS than CD'ers because for me, changing back to male is just anti-climactic, and makes me sad.
I agree with the statements "you just know" because the more i think about it, the more its true to me, and the more right it feels.

I cant say that i meet any of the criteria on that list that was posted either.

How about this:
Would you like to be a fairly passable female in like a skirt or some nice female clothing(but really be male)(look like a pretty girl)?

Or Be a similarly pass as a female in male clothing, and look like sort of a man(but really be female)?(Look like Dyke(no offense intended)

I go with number 2. I really dont care if im wearing female clothes or not, but that people see me as female.

its a hard line to draw, but it really comes down to your own personal feelings. not even a therapist will really be able to make you decide, its something that you will know for yourself , and it'll feel right for you.

[SchnauzerLogic]

when labels are no longer helpful or, even worse, begin to contribute to your pain and confusion, abandon them. if there was no word for love, you would still know it when you experienced it.

namaste