Why should they?

[suchacutie]

Let me start with the easy part: There are positives to crossdressing, and we all know that, and these positives stretch to the relationship. As we struggle to improve our feminine selves we most certainly become more empathetic to our spouses. We understand what they go through every day. We learn how they think...not one person on this forum should have to be accused of saying, "I haven't a clue how women think". Our feminine selves makes us better spouses, broader conversationalists with our spouses, and should help them feel more comfortable in the marriage even if they never see us dressed and never consider our feminine selves their girlfriends. Ok, all the better if they do, but our increased closeness doesn't require it. Bottom line, crossdressing should make us the best spouses on the planet! (ok, how's that for conceit, huh?!).

But..........................

There are a number of potential land mines: 1) Let's not forget that presenting as the other gender is not the most accepted pasttime. In many people's minds it is perverted, sinful, and makes us less "manly" (if they only knew how "manly" we have to be to even think of walking out in public dressed as a woman they would reconsider!). 2) If our spouses didn't know up front, these women understood that they married MEN. Those who are competely hetero, as is my wife, would recoil at the thought of intimacy with their "man" in this framework, especially if he is really good en femme! (a kick in the teeth, huh...get good at being a woman and make it worse). 3) The potential societal "stigma" that would be attached to our little "perversion" might be thought of as a destabilizing factor in the family, in the workplace, and in front of the children in the eyes of a wife who suddenly finds out her man enjoys being (needs to be) en femme. Their whole world could seem to be upside down in an instant. Also, she sure as hell isn't going to talk to anyone about it, thus isolating her from any help that might normally be available to her. Also, if she is really close to her husband, she can't talk to that normally stable confident! 4) One big elephant in the room is intimacy. Suddenly your MAN is a woman, and can you get that out of your mind? (ok, eventually, but what a rocky road to get there).

A husband presenting as her gender crosses all manner of potential landmines that the length of one's hair or one's weight or leaving one's socks under the bed can't hope to compete with. We are talking about emotion here, not logic! When threads are started about what we would do if our wives suddenly told us they have been dressing as men and going to bars to swig beer with their guy buddies, some agree it would be great but most are silent on the issue. Let me say again, it's emotion, it's expectation on the deepest level. It is hard!

Ok...after almost 1000 posts, you all know that my wife and I have been doing this together for 4+ years. We started it together. We do it together. We talk about it. She teaches me, giving her complete input on what she wants me to learn from her! She likes that I understand her better. I like it too! Am I going to go clubbing without her? No. She is my wife. I wouldn't go clubbing without her in male mode! Have I stopped being her guy? No. And maybe that's the point. I haven't pushed the buttons that we all are in a position to push. My world would be very different if I suddenly really needed to be Tina 24/7. Suddenly I would not be the man she married. There has to be a point in an agreement when the original contract is stretched to the point of breach of contract, to the point where the original contract conditions are not present. Gender is a big part of the marriage contract. As much as I adore Tina, if it were necessary for me to completely transition to Tina, I would understand that my wife would be fully justified in claiming breach of contract. Likewise, if she decided to take hormones and present as a male 24/7, I might very well also claim breach of contract.

It comes down to each relationship, what the agreement is, and how far it can be stretched before it breaks. That's why there is a legal procedure called annulment. What we are doing is serious business, both for us, and for our spouses. Hopefully this next generation will be the first to be able to discuss this openly, and without malice, before wedding vows are taken. That will obviate the need for this thread in the future. We can only hope and work toward that goal.

as always, just my

tina

[melissacd]

I really like your response suchacutie. Very well articulated!

[busker]

Thanks for so many considered replies. I think I may have made several reader a bit defensive--that wasn't my idea. I wanted to focus more on this line Figuring out how one can incorporate themselves into the life around them should be the priority in a more practical/philosophical way but I got carried away.
Many very good points were made that sharing is important, the notion of for better or worse (sometimes works) and still there are so many problems.
Several did mention other "hobbies" and how they are incorporated and accepted or not. compromise is an important issue but how often does it really work? I remember reading of one cder who "compromised" by giving away the house, the kids and bank account so that his then divorcing spouse would not out him.
I need to rephrase my question. Assuming that 1) she knows about her spouses cding, 2) is not at all interested in that activity and won't encourage it 3) won't necessarily chase her spouse around the house with a broom when he does
HOW DOES ONE FIND the PEACE to do what is important in life and the expression of it without
1)feeling that one is not cut from whole cloth 2) that while this activity hurts no one, it is not possible to dismiss thoughts that a spouse may be adversely affected mentally by this expression of self 3) how do we practitioners of this art fit it into the life around us with a minimum of disturbance and be accepted at the same time? 4) how do we avoid feeling that somehow we are still living with this "headache" no mater how well things seem to be going?
Mandrake out of water

[ReineD]

Busker, you do it with negotiation. If you can accept that your wife does not want to be involved, you can ask her to accept that you need private time and space to CD. The rest will have to come from your own inner strength; the ability to forgive yourself for who you are.

[danielle.cd]

egzactly (spelled that bad) my wife doesnt really like to see me dressed so i do it when her and the kids go to bed or are gone during the day for me thats my way of not throwing it in her face, if she asks what am i going to do i tell her have some me time and she just goes to sleep

[DaisyG]

It is hard for a girl to come clean with their spouse when they have not even come clean with themselves. This site is littered with wonderful TGs that thought they could make it go away and then realized long after they were married that this was not the case.

I couldn't agree more.

It took me over FIVE DECADES to understand myself; to know who my femme side really is and that Daisy really is forever. During this time I destroyed an opportunity to marry an absolutely wonderful woman because I couldn't tell her something I didn't understand myself, yet somehow I had the sense not to marry her until I could tell her.

A year later I ended up marrying another super lady (who was promoting marriage enough trhat I relented, and didn't tell). I kept my secret until I was discovered after 35 years with her. Fortunately after a few months she gradually came to accept, then participate. I had 5 years to enjoy and share my CDing with her before she passed away. If only I had been able to understand my self a lot better, a lot earlier; and only if I could then have mustered the courage to tell her. We could have shared many more years out in the open.

I learned the hard way. I sincerely hope not many others will follow my path.

I counsel to all:

Early and full disclosure, continuing conversation, and complete honesty. Effort at building and maintaining trust in each other.

Daisy

[utah beauty]

I suppose there's no really good response to someone going through this... if their SO is rejecting their CD or TS ways... just like no good response to you if you get dumped by someone you were head over heels for... life's just tough sometimes, and we all need friends ... thus why this website exists

[Malori Cross]

Well said!!! Excellent! Thanks.

"So as long as I keep it out of her face, she turns a blind eye to my hobby... But the tension is still hovering in the background..."

Bingo. Same here. I can live with this.

[Erica2Sweet]

...I also think that it's wrong to blame the CDer for hiding what he/she is...

Sorry, that's a cop-out. The very least one can do for his or her SO is to be honest about who they are. Being open and honest is simply the tougher of the two choices one can make with regard to full disclosure, that's all.

If one feels the need to keep secrets this big, then why not fore-go the marriage proposal and save the woman the pain and suffering of later finding out she has been (or is being) deceived?

I'm guilty of hiding my femme side in past relationships... and surprisingly none of them worked out. I stopped hiding my femme side and discovered that the defense skills one acquires in keeping big secrets is the very thing that was causing the problems in those past relationships. Things now are much much better relationship wise, and life makes so much more sense.

All I had to do was take some time, think, and be honest with myself, and I quickly realized lying and keeping secrets was no way to sustain a relationship. It was selfish of me to hide the important bits of me that I felt were not at the time admirable qualities.

[Acadeca]

Ohh come on! She didn't hide her weight gain in some uber secret girdle that she unexpectedly exposed to you one day!! "News release..... 110 pound woman explodes to 250 pounds when her super girlde fails.... Photos at 11".

Not even close to being on the same level... In my humble opinion.

Thanks, Karren, for being honest about this. I appreciate your forthrightness.

One of the issues is that it's NOT that CDers changed; many knew they were CDers when they married. So it's about telling the truth, not about changing.

And, as Karren said, I always wonder how much most of the CDers here would accept their wives doing something analogous--that is, trying to present as an animal, a baby, etc, not just wearing a pair of jeans.

If one feels the need to keep secrets this big, then why not fore-go the marriage proposal and save the woman the pain and suffering of later finding out she has been (or is being) deceived?

I'm guilty of hiding my femme side in past relationships... and surprisingly none of them worked out. I stopped hiding my femme side and discovered that the defense skills one acquires in keeping big secrets is the very thing that was causing the problems in those past relationships. Things now are much much better relationship wise, and life makes so much more sense.

Absolutely. Being honest doesn't just save her pain. It also gives the CDer a chance to find someone who can accept him as he is, without spending a lifetime trying to force it. It may take longer to find a compatible partner, but a happy marriage is worth it.

[Hope]

Ultimately, at the end of the day every person in every relationship has to do what is best not only for themselves, but for their relationship. When one gets married, they suddenly have to stop thinking first about their own welfare and start thinking first about the welfare, not only of another person, but of their relationship with that person. That is a huge shift in mindset, and it can take a while to happen... but it MUST happen, because a marriage is not a one way street, set in stone for time and all eternity. People change, grow, and blossom not only during the course of a life, but during the course of a marriage as well. If they do otherwise they are doing something spectacularly wrong. Expecting that either wife or husband will not change is an expectation that will lead to certain misery.

The CDers who don't disclose to their wives before marriage (for those who were fully aware and cognizant of their lot in life) don't really deserve to be in marriages. At the same time, wives who refuse to accept their husbands CDing (after a fair period of time to get past the surprise) also really don't deserve to be in marriages. And I don't mean that in a small way. I don't mean that people who can't be vulnerable with their partner shouldn't be married to people who refuse to accept there partners. I mean they shouldn't be married to anybody. Guys who can't be vulnerable with there partners should not have partners. Women who cannot accept their parters for who they are, should not have partners.

"Why should a partner accept another partner's CDing when that isn't what they signed up for?" Because it IS what they signed up for.

What about if a wife is in a car accident? The husband didn't sign up for life with a paraplegic. What if he really likes to dance?

Here is the thing a lot of angry wives seem to miss entirely - the femme nature the guy carries around with him, is a big part of what makes him who he is. If you want to change your mate significantly, if you wish that a significant part of what makes your mate who they are would simply go away, or if you refuse to have anything to do with it - you have no business being married to that person. If you cannot support your mate - you do not deserve to be with that person. And quite frankly, why would anyone expect any less from their mates? Why would anyone commit themselves to the health, welfare and support of another person who is not willing or able to commit to them in the same way?

But lets be honest about what the problem really is here - because it really isn't about CDing or car accidents, or clown shoes. It's about people being healthy, self aware, emotionally mature human beings - something that the human race is woefully short on. Healthy people can have healthy marriages - unhealthy people simply can't.

"Why should a partner accept another partner's CDing when that isn't what they signed up for?" Because it IS what they signed up for.

[JiveTurkeyOnRye]

One of the issues is that it's NOT that CDers changed; many knew they were CDers when they married. So it's about telling the truth, not about changing.

Absolutely. Being honest doesn't just save her pain. It also gives the CDer a chance to find someone who can accept him as he is, without spending a lifetime trying to force it. It may take longer to find a compatible partner, but a happy marriage is worth it.

You're not wrong here. I am an advocate for full disclosure before things get serious. The only issue I have with it, is that it works great in a perfect world. But since our world is sometimes very harsh to crossdressers, sometimes there are complications. Especially for people who got married more than a decade or so ago, or even longer, before things like gender and sexuality were being openly discussed. And it is a world where someone might be married to someone they truly love but also need to come out as a crossdresser.

(I mean no offense to anyone here, but so it's not confusing, I'm going to use male pronouns here for the husband and female for the wife so it is clear who I'm talking about.)

Is it wrong for a husband to hide his crossdressing from his wife? Yes. Is it understandable why he would? Yes. The biggest reason why he didn't tell her is usually because he isn't comfortable with it yet himself. Also often men who crossdress think "I can stop once I'm with her." So he doesn't tell her because he thinks it won't matter.

The fact is sometimes it has taken so many years for him to tell her because he wasn't secure in his own feelings about it yet either. Having said that, if someone is comfortable coming on here and posting frequently about it, they really should muster up the strength to tell the person that is supposed to be their partner.

But when he finally tells her, then a great deal of compassion is required on both sides and that there is where the "for better and for worse" part of the vows really kicks in. If he tells her the right way, and gives her the chance to work through her pain and doesn't overload her with details, and even perhaps goes to counseling with her, and she still leaves because of the crossdressing, well then that is partially on her as much as it is on him.

[Samantha Kelsey]

I find that many CDers tend to despise their wife/SO for not accepting them as they are and that their partner will despise them for wanting to wear the clothes of the opposite sex. Everybody changes throughout their lives so its wrong to say 'you're not the person I married' usually this will be from a partner who weighs half as much again as they did at the start of the relationship.

Don't give me the line "but it's only the crossdressing I/they dont like", You either like someone or you dont.

How can you live with some one who doesn't like you or who you dont like?

I hear many of you say "I'm only staying to keep the family together".
Get a life man!
Your upset, she's upset and the chances are the kids have picked up that theres something wrong and they're upset as well.

Do em all a favour and split!
Ah! you say, but thats a bind and stirs up a boat load of trouble.
Not as much heartache in a divorce as there is in living with someone you despise.
Excuses, excuses.
I'll bet you're afraid of having to find a new place to live, doing your own cooking, cleaning, and oh god! what will the neighbours say.
Believe me all the gossip will be over and you'll be forgotten in two weeks.
Then,
Bliss,
You can dress up whenever you want to with absolutly no hassle. You may even find a new partner! BUT REMEMBER!!!!!! Tell them from the start that your a crossdresser or you'll be back where you started!


.

[ReineD]

or if you refuse to have anything to do with it - you have no business being married to that person. If you cannot support your mate - you do not deserve to be with that person.

I agree with everything you say except this part. We don't live in a society that has taught us that gender (and to some degree, sexual) variance is OK. It is hard to overcome a lifetime of indoctrination. It is even difficult for some CDs. And we don't even know if sexual preferences are hard-wired. An accepting wife invariably needs to accept that her husband, or a part of him, is feminine.

I think that a wife can acknowledge that her husband CDs and she can respect him enough to give him the space and time for self-expression, without having to be actively involved with the CDing herself. But if this is not enough for the husband, if the CDing needs to be a much larger part of his life than his wife can live with, then I agree they should not stay married. But, it becomes more complicated to end a marriage the older and the closer the partners are to retirement.

[Laura_Stephens]

In my humble opinion, if they weren't made privy early on then they didn't sign up for this and don't have to accept anything!! I don't blame my wife for not accepting my crossdressing. Hell I wouldn't accept it if she did either... Good for the gander is good for the goose even if the gander wants to be a goosette!!

Karen, I couldn't agree more. If I had the opportunity to live my life over, I would have told her BEFORE we got engaged. My wife doesn't accept at all and it's not her fault.

[JiveTurkeyOnRye]

We understand what they go through every day. We learn how they think...not one person on this forum should have to be accused of saying, "I haven't a clue how women think".

When threads are started about what we would do if our wives suddenly told us they have been dressing as men and going to bars to swig beer with their guy buddies, some agree it would be great but most are silent on the issue. Let me say again, it's emotion, it's expectation on the deepest level. It is hard!


tina

Tina you made a lot of points and I'm sorry I can't address them all but I'm replying via iPhone. I wanted to address this issue though. Women can and do basically what you describe. I know lots of women who will swig beer, wear sports jerseys or jeans and t-shirts and hang with their friends, male and female, the same way guys do. It isnt considered abnormal at all. Women are free to act like guys. Maybe the reason some people stay silent when threads start is cause their wife already does this stuff.

I know this isn't the same as actually presenting as men, but would so many CDs actually want to pass as women if they could get away with "girly" interests like femme clothes and makeup in guy mode? And would these same occasionally tomboyish women be ok with their men coming to the makeup counter or wearing dresses as long as they continued to present as a man in a dress as opposed to dressing as a woman? I'm guessing most would not.

[Hope]

I agree with everything you say except this part. We don't live in a society that has taught us that gender (and to some degree, sexual) variance is OK. It is hard to overcome a lifetime of indoctrination. It is even difficult for some CDs. And we don't even know if sexual preferences are hard-wired. An accepting wife invariably needs to accept that her husband, or a part of him, is feminine.

I think that a wife can acknowledge that her husband CDs and she can respect him enough to give him the space and time for self-expression, without having to be actively involved with the CDing herself. But if this is not enough for the husband, if the CDing needs to be a much larger part of his life than his wife can live with, then I agree they should not stay married. But, it becomes more complicated to end a marriage the older and the closer the partners are to retirement.

I can whole heartedly agree that getting divorced is a complicated messy, painful endeavor - no matter what stage of life one does it in, and that it only becomes more painful, more destructive, and more messy the closer to retirement age folks get. Absolutely. And some folks will make accommodations to avoid the pain and the messiness and destruction that is wrought by divorce. That can be a reasonable accommodation to make and people in relationships can still live together in an otherwise productive arrangement. But the fact that divorce is messy, painful, and destructive does not have any real bearing on one's fitness or appropriateness for a relationship.

If you cannot accept and treasure your partner, you do not deserve to be with your partner. That is still true even if leaving, or being left, is painful.

[ReineD]

If you cannot accept and treasure your partner, you do not deserve to be with your partner.

But can a wife accept and respect that her husband CDs without directly getting involved if she feels she cannot? Can they come up with a mutually satisfying arrangement whereby the wife busies herself doing other things while the husband dresses either at home or out?

For simplicity's sake I am using traditional gender pronouns, although I know that a TG partner is a "she".