Gender identity before sexual orientation?

[nikkijo]

the male body repulses me.. period. nikki first emerged when i was 13 and slowly she is becomming more dominate in who gets to show themselves in my life... so ive stepped beyond CD into transgender but if/when idecide my life can handle a full change id end up being a lesbian... orientation was never the question..

[Ze]

the male body repulses me.. period.

Umm...thank you?

[Bones]

From a very young age I did not have a "strong sexuality." I just liked "whoever." Only within the last 4 or 5 years or so did I hear what pansexual was and realize, "Well, that's what I am." When people asked if I was gay or straight, I'd just say, "Whatever. I like people." That's how I was. And with my gender identity, I'd most often say, "I'm just a person. I don't feel strongly one way or the other."

Well, that wasn't very true. I wanted a male body but I didn't think about those differences until I was much older, in my teens. I was not a social outcast, but I was not part of the "dating scene," and when I thought about sex, I envisioned myself as a male. For some reason, however, that was not odd to me and I didn't question my gender identity. I still thought I was "just a person." Not really a guy or a girl on the inside. Well, then I put myself in sexual situations, thinking, "Yes, the person I wish I was is a man, who who am I?" The realization that I was a girl and could do nothing about it threw me into chaos three years ago. I'd been a cross dresser for several years at that point, dressing as a boy exclusively. My parents did not detect this because they just thought I was being a tomboy. But in my mind, I was dressed like a boy.

I never went through a "lesbian" stage or anything like that... like I said, my sexuality is very fluid and seems to have no boundaries (in terms of gender/sex I mean). I would say I have always been content with my sexuality and really only questioned my gender. Now, I DID go through a, "I'M A GAY BOY!" phase early in transition. I was obsessed with the sexual aspects of being a gay man (such as... [ahem!] "frotting"?). Well. I got over that for two reasons; 1) I will never have that penis and 2) I can't deny it, I'm attracted to women also.

[olga]

For me, sexual orientation was first. I finally came to terms a couple of years ago that I’m not sexually attracted to women. Dating (and my marriage) was only an attempt to do what’s normal and expected…

Now I know that I’m neither sexually attracted to women nor men in my male persona.

Second was gender ID. I feel more feminine than masculine. This is still pretty new to me. My female side is attracted to women, but more in the sense that I want to be the woman in question.

Very confusing. But hey, isn’t that what makes life fun?


olga

[Bones]

but more in the sense that I want to be the woman in question.

I understand this very well (except I want to be the man obviously). I used to think I was some sort of autosexual, or attracted to myself or something... but I realized it's just that I'm more comfortable in that role. I cannot enjoy sexual or romantic situations at all "as a woman." It sounds like it's the same way for you, just the other way around (I'm just throwing ideas out here; don't let me speak for you!).

[RachelZ]

Well my orientation wasn't hard to figure out. Of course I've questioned myself a few times, but the answer has always been clear to me. I'm not attracted to men. But my problem is I can't figure my gender identity because I keep flip flopping back and forth. I have days when I feel like a man and I have days when a feel like a women. So I'm still trying to decide what kind of person I want to be.

[Kieron Andrew]

I have days when I feel like a man and I have days when a feel like a women. So I'm still trying to decide what kind of person I want to be.

nothing at all wrong with being an inbetweeny

[alpha12]

I was raised without any recognition that gender or orientation outside the community-recognized norms existed. Playing with boys was not allowed. I got in trouble regularly in kindergarten for playing with (and fighting with) the boys. The girls relentlessly played house, and when I was forced to play with the girls, I invariably played the dad.

From first grade on, kids were separated by gender and I barely spoke to anyone not female other than teachers for the next thirteen years. I wasn't aware of sexuality much either, but certainly orientation became an issue. I was clearly different, in many ways, physically I was taller and stronger, but socially I was incredibly inept and didn't know how to play those games at all. Ended up being very quiet and seriously depressed from late elementary on and off until I left.

When I did leave the fundamentalist lifestyle in my early twenties, I was dealing with serious mental health crisis brought about by the fundamentalist lifestyle. When I met my girlfriend, I just assumed I must be bisexual, because I had just begun to learn about the existence of sexual orientation. My girlfriend was confused however, by, well, me. Despite my feminine appearance, I was not feminine enough for her.

Although I can now identify the incidence of gender dysphoria throughout my childhood and particularly adolescence, I only really began to think of myself as gender ambivalent when I experienced very extreme gender dysphoria and very severe depression during pregnancy. When the same thing recurred in my second pregnancy, my thought that I am not really set up to be a woman became more a part of my conscious identity.

I sure don't feel like a gay man, although I am married to a man. I sure don't feel like a lesbian, although I experience the desire for women pretty often. I guess I just feel like I'm trying to make do with what body and hormones and such that I have, because I'd rather deal with gender dysphoria than with transitioning. To me, that means enjoying the male body vicariously, through that of my partner, and frequently wishing for (ok, lusting after ) straight sex with a woman.

So, back to the question: I felt different in a gender- rather than an orientation-based way first, but I consciously identified as gay before I identified as having gender identity issues.

[Bones]

Hmmm. Despite being a tomboy, I never really got into fights. I was a brainy kid. I really preferred just sitting under a tree and talking. I think that was probably a "girly" thing to do, but I still knew I wasn't like them. My group of friends was actually... 2 boys and 2 girls in elementary school, plus myself. Later in elementary school all of my friends were girls. The whole "cooties" thing, you know. Boys wouldn't get near me. Then in middle school it was all boys for friends (like 12 guys) and 2 or 3 girls. Then in high school it was pretty mixed again. I was always that "oddball." A lot of kids thought I was a boy when they met me. I also never dated any boys and people knew from a young age that I liked boys and girls. I was gender-neutral a lot of the time. People did not know how to address me.

When I played "house," I actually tried really hard to play a genderless character most of the time, because I was somehow ashamed of my desire to play a boy role. So I'd play an ambiguous role, but in my mind it was a male role, even if others naturally labeled me as a girl.

Physically I have always been the smallest and weakest person in any group. That did not change my feelings however. Though I did at a pretty young age realize it was pointless to try to be a boy. I was weaker than most girls. In 5th grade I played "rough soccer" with the boys. They chased me, I ran backwards, fell, and sprained my wrist. It was the most horrible thing, because I loved to draw and I couldn't for weeks. That all sounds very feminine, yet I know my identity is that of a guy.

I did for a long time feel like I might be some sort of gay boy. I wanted to be male, but oddly enough not overly masculine. I liked the idea of being a passive male, who was gentle, kind, respectable, and well-spoken. Somehow this is all just "gay" and that makes people doubt my identity. But see, a man can be all these things and still a man. And really, I didn't turn out that way. In reality, I'm crude, loud, obnoxious, blunt, and rude just like most other men. I'm kind of horrified at my own behavior sometimes but it just comes so naturally.

[4serrus]

Alpha, who are you and what are you doing in my brain. Your childhood seems a LOT like mine was. I also grew up in a rather fundamentalist (christian) environment, that screwed me up mentally for years and years. I also nearly killed myself when I got pregnant, and fell into a deep unrelenting depression for over five years. Worst. Thing. Ever.

[Ze]

I can't imagine how either of you survived pregnancy. The very thought of myself going through it is...horrifying isn't a strong enough word.

And perhaps that's why the "pregnant man" thing on Oprah upset me so much. Seeing him actually triggered my own dysphoria.

[alpha12]

No, horrifying isn't close to a strong enough word. Nothing like a parasite living off your body, turning you not only weaker, sick, and miserable, but also unbearably feminine. And everyone around who was willing to let gender slide, just out a sense of politeness and avoiding sexist behavior, suddenly starts treating me like some kind of Victorian-era, fainting-spell-prone, weak girl. And you have to spent huge amounts of time at an ob-gyn office. It doesn't help that the pregnancy and birth rituals in US culture, while slowly changing, are more or less founded on the principle that women are weak and need to have their subservience to men and their inherent weakness reaffirmed. Horrifying is not close to an adequate descriptor.

I wonder how common people like 4serrus and myself are. The medical people insist on treating depression that occurs in pregnancy as just a variant of post-partum depression. They weren't really interested in hearing about the huge role that gender dysphoria played in causing or contributing to my very serious depression in both pregnancies. I sought out a therapist who specializes in GLB issues, but gender issues were not really something he had an awareness of.

[Ze]

Yeah...I just can't...yeah no...

I honestly don't have words to express my horror. Kudos to you (and serrus) for surviving such stuff. I decree that makes you both stronger men than most of us here, enduring perhaps the most intense form of "anti-masculinity" and the epitome of dysphoria and yet somehow living to tell the tale.

I wonder how common people like 4serrus and myself are. The medical people insist on treating depression that occurs in pregnancy as just a variant of post-partum depression. They weren't really interested in hearing about the huge role that gender dysphoria played in causing or contributing to my very serious depression in both pregnancies. I sought out a therapist who specializes in GLB issues, but gender issues were not really something he had an awareness of.

That's an excellent curiosity and point.

[7sisters]

I have nothing to add, but here is an interesting link and point of view
http://sethisaboy.wordpress.com/2010...ing-on-things/

[christina marie]

for me it was as most gender first.always knew i was "different" but tried my best to fit the role expected of me. complete with full-blown overcompensation at every turn. I am still in the process of figuring out who i really am inside,but i am finally starting to feel comfortable in my own skin. . . a little. . .maybe. Orientation is a subject i tend not to look too deeply at,am more attracted to personality,so it seems kind of irrelevant to me.

[NiCo]

I can't imagine how either of you survived pregnancy. The very thought of myself going through it is...horrifying isn't a strong enough word.

And perhaps that's why the "pregnant man" thing on Oprah upset me so much. Seeing him actually triggered my own dysphoria.

Same here. Hence why I refused sexual activity all together, and would never dare do it with that. Glad I’ve had a hysterectomy, thank god I never will have to go through with it. I feel really sad for guys who have went through with it, not by their choice but because of family reasons, having to be something they aren’t. I have no sympathy for the “pregnant man” and I do not take him seriously as a man. Carrying a baby AFTER transitioning? WTF? No.

Don't get me wrong, I’m sad I’ll never have bio children...but I am not going to beat myself up about it, there was only one way I could and I seriously wasn't willing to go through with it.

The end.

[Ze]

Same here. Hence why I refused sexual activity all together, and would never dare do it with that.

Exactly. Not only would I not do it that way, but even if I did, the possible outcome is so horrible to bear that it's best not to risk it at all.

I have no sympathy for the “pregnant man” and I do not take him seriously as a man. Carrying a baby AFTER transitioning? WTF? No.

I wouldn't go as far as all that, personally. To each their own in my book, but he and the resulting media definitely didn't do us any favors.

[Lorileah]

this makes my head even more confused, but thanks guys for basically supporting the fact that I am not as insane as I thought I was. (even if that sentence did not reinforce the fact)

Being as this is the TM section, I stayed out but now to be brief, I think both sides go through this. We feel gender first (why can't I be like...him or her??) sexual later (or never???). Oh and some of us XY's never had the desire to make or bear children. I am with Ze...icckkkyyy

[Ze]

Being as this is the TM section, I stayed out but now to be brief, I think both sides go through this.

And since when has my Lori felt like she can't post in here?

Oh and some of us XY's never had the desire to make or bear children. I am with Ze...icckkkyyy

Well, I do want to be a daddy some day, but I could care less about bloodline and biology.

[NiCo]

I wouldn't go as far as all that, personally. To each their own in my book, but he and the resulting media definitely didn't do us any favors.

I can't get my head around doing it after transition. I can accept why before but not after.

The media made matters worse, if he had kept it to his private life, fair enough but no...he tarnished us all and that's why i can't take him seriously. I only respect people who gives us a good name, not someone who gives us a bad name. Tis sad.

I agree with each to their own, but he didn’t exactly keep it to each to their own, he involved us all.

Anyways, back on topic.

I think I’m actually bi-curious. I fancy women but wouldn’t be with them…I think I’d probably experiment too…but I wouldn’t be able to commit. I struggle committing to any relationship; the one I’m in just now is very relaxed and used to be open…but I’ve decided to attempt at committing and so far so good, I’m not feeling suffocated.

I'm stuck between bi-curious and gay...

[Ze]

I can't get my head around doing it after transition. I can accept why before but not after.

Me neither, but neither before nor after unless by extreme pressure or manipulation. Perhaps his desire for a biological child was simply that strong; it further insults me personally, but what can you do.

I agree with each to their own, but he didn’t exactly keep it to each to their own, he involved us all.

I guess insofar as he identifies as a transman, but I don't recall him making any outrageous claims as, "This is what all transmen do." It was the media, lacking education, and misconstrued assumptions by the general public that really did us all in. Just like anybody else can go public with their personal story, it's fine just as long as listeners remember that it's a personal story. That was the biggest problem with this situation. It's hard for outliers to be seen as outliers until what's "usual" for us is already understood by others. In an odd way, though, I see him as more a dude than most of us here; much like what I said earlier about transmen enduring pregnancy in general.

[7sisters]

No two fingerprints are the same. And no two people are alike. It must be lonely for Mr. Beattie. What he did was like throwing a lighted match into a oil well. He has made people uncomfortable. And his actions call for a lot of rethinking on gender issues.

I am not in the position to judge him. I just see him as a colourful thread in the gender tapestry. Sometimes I think that he must be so scared the word 'man'could get taken away from him. Then I think he shrugs away what poeple think. He has a life to live and he does not care what the world must think. Who knows what motivated him. And it may be unfair for me to enter into conjecture.

[NiCo]

Good points. I stand by what I said

[Bones]

You know.
I think I could make it through pregnancy but... I don't want to. I don't think I would feel that a child is a parasite or anything like that. I don't like the idea of pregnancy but I would never speak of it in such hateful words. To me it would be a bizarre experience and I would try to disassociate myself from it. I'd have to just tell myself it was someone else's body.

Oh and I certainly believe Thomas Beatie is a man. I don't degender people simply because they are different than me.

[kurokaze]

Heya Ze,

(and other forum peeps)

JUST a "butch lesbian" ... confused... uh... THAT PART is already confused --- even if you correctly identify "butch lesbian" you're NOT //just// that, you're the cat's pajama's ... one or more bags of chips or ... however that slang stuff works (( you're "cool" =^_^= ))

So you say it was FIRST a matter of [[ gender identity / presentation / transition thoughts ]] ... wow! same here hehe (( sorta... but I'll get to that ))

Well ... that's pretty much the opposite of... My MTF (trans) partner thought herself "gay" or "bi" for years... though she's transitioning now, and is quite happy with her female identity, and even still prefers men (( and it's REALLY NICE that she loves me regardless of how I'm identified / presenting =^_^= ))

----- [[ CONTEXT ]] -----

Hum... is this thread acceptable for me to post on? I am NEITHER ftm nor mtf transsexual ... (am intersex) as well as an androgyne (( a presentation other than crossdressing or even gender-fluid ))

...ah well, here goes...

[[edit]]

"do I want to be male???" ... No... No, I am not male ... probably not even going to (re) consider it ((aprox. half my life I've known I didn't want to be male ... several years after deciding "female" I re-affirmed my decision, this time when I decided against T / instead took a low dose of estrogen... health problems which took me to an endocrinologist... meh))

DEFFINATELY KNEW I was "female, and I like females" before I attempted to sort out my identity... truly can't see myself living male (again)

o.O The rest of my post is now semi-irrelevant??? eh... it's really hard for me to

[[--- done with my edit --- nothing else I want to insert here... eww, mental image]]



I have (born with) an intersex condition which "mixed things up" my whole life (( intrinsic androgyny / femininity... at the end of the day, I'm female bodied, even if I was initially assigned and raised male )) Female bodied... but in the early '80s "external" still meant "male assigned at birth" when you're intersexed ((( non-perfect genitals, but external was the bottom line ... thank goodness for progress )))

In my NOT SO SIMPLE case... the androgyny (once upon a time) had peers occasionally calling me "gay" or "fag" or ... other things (( happened while I lived male... assigned / raised... ***shrugs*** )) ... [[ Think I'll also mention was VERY lame to use the boy's locker rooms for gym class... ultimately I stopped changing all together, but at the cost of loosing my "Easy A" when they marked my grades down for refusing ]]

... Ultimately ( As an adult ) I actually did something about it... I finally presented (publicly) as female, at age 22 (( my "over-simplified / under-explored identity" had been female since about age 16 )) ... I tried living intersex-stealth (((passing "female" was a non-issue... it WAS ALWAYS hard to pass for male though))) ... but living as (100%) female was a truely horrible experience for me (( At the very least, it was a huge shock to my system, particularly all the interest I got from MEN... oh gosh... I gave all the wrong ones a chance ))

----- [[ ALL OF THAT was just for the "context" ]] -----

Ultimately, I now consider myself a lesbian + androgyne
(( which is my sexual orientation + presentation ))

"dyke boi" is a LABEL which I find amusing =^_^=

as a //boi/// I am "not 100% female-identified" (mostly though) and am female bodied, and I like women ((hence the "dyke" part))

[[ boi ]] -- wikipedia =^_^=

Thanks for starting this thread ze,
Ryan (the "dyke boi")