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Thread: Autogynophelia

  1. #26
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    I read the Wikipedia definition. Couldn't make much of it. Anyone who wants to can write a definition in Wikipedia. It's not a very strong authority. Try going back to Blanchard himself. I think it's pretty clear.

    Many men with GID don't really like being identified as homosexual. There are FAR more reasons to crossdress than to attract men or get off on the thought of being women.

    Please remember that these are not MY theories. I want no part of autogynephilia. I am just trying to clear up what Blanchard was talking about when he formulated the theory and invented the term. Someone asked, What is "autogynephilia?" I thought Dr Lawrence's explanation was accurate. While it's true that it is a controversial subject, many, if not most, current authorities agree on the weakness of his research.

    My personal opinion? I think he was, and is, all wet. His research group was pitifully small and the previous authorities that he relies on were unsophisticated about transexuality as we know it today. I suspect that he had an agenda, but I'm not really interested in his ideas or in this discussion. I was just trying to supply a definition that most could understand.

    Stephie

  2. #27
    Jean skirts 'n boots. RockerTerri's Avatar
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    All I know is if anyone ever calls me this, they better have a dental plan.

    I agree, whoever came up with this probably had his own agenda.
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  3. #28
    Truth, Love, Freedom Angiemead12's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stephenie S View Post
    [SIZE="4"]Autogynephilia:[/SIZE]

    To quote Dr. Ann Lawrence's interpretation of Blanchard's term:

    Based on his research, Blanchard concluded that there were two distinct categories of gender dysphoric males: an androphilic group, those who were sexually aroused exclusively or almost exclusively by males; and a nonandrophilic group, who were, or had once been, sexually aroused primarily by the idea of being female. Blanchard called this latter group autogynephilic: having the propensity to be sexually aroused by the thought or image of oneself as female.

    I gave a very simplified explanaion, and I stated that it was simplified. Perhaps Dr Lawrence's interpretation will be easier to understand?

    Or, as suggested, one could read the original research paper.

    Stephie
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  4. #29
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    Stephie & others who do not agree with the validity in using AGP as an explanation for gender reassignment, I agree with you!

    Yes, Blanchard is under much criticism because of the narrowness of his study, which attributes purely sexual motives for TSs who wish to transition: according to Blanchard, they are either homosexual or they are paraphilic, which to make matters worse is classified as a mental illness! I agree that Blanchard missed the boat entirely, since he doesn't seem to consider the very reason TSs do seek gender reassignment: basic gender dysphoria.

    BUT ... the term, as ill-applied as it is in explaining motives for transition, does describe a phenomena that is alive and well within the TG community: the fetish aspect to the crossdressing.

    How many threads have we had here where TGs have said that nothing can compare with the sexual gratification derived over the CDing, not even being with a partner? This does describe a paraphilia, which is defined as a sexual arousal to objects or situations that, if severe enough, may prevent or hinder one's ability to give and receive reciprocal human love ... in other words, someone who cannot have a healthy sexual relationship with a partner because the partner cannot compare to the sexual thrill derived from the CDing. Whether this should be classified as a mental illness is beside the point, really, when the issue is more about mending relationships that have deteriorated because of the AGP.

    Last edited by ReineD; 04-22-2010 at 11:18 PM.
    Reine

  5. #30
    Dr. Girlfriend AmandaM's Avatar
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    I would date the crossdressed me. But the crossdressed me wouldn't date me. So, I attracted to myself and not attracted to myself. Ouch my brain hurts!

  6. #31
    Silver Member Jonianne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReineD View Post
    .......the issue is more about mending relationships that have deteriorated because of the AGP.
    Joni

    "Yes, to dance beneath the diamond sky with one hand waving free" Bob Dylan

  7. #32
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    Put me in with the guilty bunch.

  8. #33
    Banned Read only Satrana's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReineD View Post
    I agree that Blanchard missed the boat entirely, since he doesn't seem to consider the very reason TSs do seek gender reassignment: basic gender dysphoria.
    But there is a question begging to be answered. If TSs are just gender dysphoric then why did Blanchard find AGP among the TS sample group? Blanchard can be criticized for the narrowness of his conclusion but he did reveal that AGP is a factor across the whole TG spectrum. It does indicate that when gender identity is shifted then is invariably consequences for the sexual drive.


    when the issue is more about mending relationships that have deteriorated because of the AGP.
    I think it is fair to point out that AGP is rarely an issue at the beginning of a relationship because the attraction to the partner exceeds the AGP. Usually there is a tipping point several years in after the initial exuberance of romantic love subsides.

    I also would imagine that AGP is usually more pronounced in relationships where the CD is still in the closet or where the SO is unaccepting which results in the CD focusing more of his sexual energy into AGP. I mentioned in another thread that spending years in the closet usually results in a CD building a large catalog of powerful fantasies based around AGP scenarios. This can be a major stumbling block to a mutually satisfying sex life.

    Even when the CD is out of the closet with an accepting SO, the deeply personal (shameful) nature of an AGP affected sex drive means that secret remains in the closet even though the physical manifestation of the dressing is out.

    It seems to me that many people having been using Blanchard's easily criticized thesis as a scapegoat to downplay AGP so as not to admit to this thorniest of TG issues.

  9. #34
    Silver Member Jonianne's Avatar
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    It's about time you chimed in, Satrana!
    Joni

    "Yes, to dance beneath the diamond sky with one hand waving free" Bob Dylan

  10. #35
    Member Ms Jennifer's Avatar
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    I plead guilty or do I ,OOOOH I don't know.I think I will put on a sexy outfit and think about it and see what I feel like then.

  11. #36
    Gold Member Kaitlyn Michele's Avatar
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    The word autogynephilia is considered perjorative by most...

    There is alot of politics around gender pyschology and Dr Blanchard is a part of it...

    To put it bluntly..
    Jerking off to yourself while dressed or images of yourself or eyes closed fantasies of yourself dressed or female is very common among transfolk...but so is jerking off to just about anything!!! theproblem comes in relationships when it overwhelms everything else, and many can't perform sexually unless they are imagining themselves as women...

    so how do you describe this? i'm not a doctor..is it deviant behaviour that must be put in a box?? that must be cured? that should preclude a transition to a female role (ie you have a sexual issue, not an identity issue)

    On the other hand, if i was your wife and you were not making love to me because you did this all day, then i would want to know how to deal with it...

    one big problem with autogynephilia in particular is that the concept was not developed with any scientific rigor, the work was done in a very small sample set, and it attempts to put us all into a very limited set of labels as describd in previous posts...i can say for a fact that I dont fit in either of those categories...so i have to dismiss the whole thing, how can it possibly be true?...i find the whole theory to be incredibly slipshod and lazy

    so generally speaking, trans people do not like the word despite the fact that on the surface it describes behaviour that we all know about...

  12. #37
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    There seems to be no question that the phenomenon of autogynephilia EXISTS. As has been amply demonstrated by responses here in this thread, many of our members consider that they themselves easily fit his criteria. We have a classic case in one of our more active members, yet even he might balk at having to be labeled homosexual. It's just that Blanchard tried to squeeze far more people into the boat then there is room for. The umbrella of transexualism covers a much greater area of behavior.

    Blanchard studied a small select group of mostly sex workers in a major Canadian city. Others who read his studies found similar cases within their own work. The theory grew in acceptance. But like other theories in the past (the theory that all women suffer from penis envy springs to mind), new thinking often replaces old.

    Stephenie

  13. #38
    Silver Member Jonianne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaitlyn Michele View Post
    ......on the surface it describes behaviour that we all know about...
    I think it should only be a concern for CD's in a commited relationship where intimacy is affected, not TS's.
    Joni

    "Yes, to dance beneath the diamond sky with one hand waving free" Bob Dylan

  14. #39
    Gold Member Kaitlyn Michele's Avatar
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    Actually Jonianne i respectfully disagree...

    the reason it matters to TS women is that it is used to categorize us incorrectly...and it is helpful to people who want to withhold transition related services and treat us all as if we have a sexual disorder...

    the word itself doesnt bother me...call me whatever you want...but its a word and a concept that is used against folks that simply want to live as women and be fairly treated by the medical and insurance communities

  15. #40
    Silver Member Jonianne's Avatar
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    I think you and I both agree that AGP should not be used by the medical community to deny TS women their proper treatment.

    My only reason for talking about the subject is because it does exist and it could be a factor in possibly hurting the intimacy relationship between a CD'er and her loved one if not discussed and worked out.
    Last edited by Jonianne; 04-23-2010 at 07:56 AM.
    Joni

    "Yes, to dance beneath the diamond sky with one hand waving free" Bob Dylan

  16. #41
    also known as maya :) zoe m's Avatar
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    i agree with everything satrana said on this thread. i think some of the specifics of Blanchard's theories (which i'm only reading about now) may be off, and it definitely should not be used to deny TS women sex reassignment, but it can't be denied that the phenomenon exists, at least for those who are just CDs, even if it doesn't exist in exactly the way Blanchard says, and it's way different for each person. i agree that the more you keep it in the closet, the more it may overwhelm you. this AGP doesn't have to be the only or even the most important form of sexuality for a CD, but it may become that if you try to ignore it.

    for me what's interesting about this concept of AGP is precisely that it's different from the idea of transvestistic fetishism: it's not so much about the clothes as objects, as it is about a situation or state of mind.

    just some thoughts, i'm reading about this stuff for the first time.

  17. #42
    Jean skirts 'n boots. RockerTerri's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaitlyn Michele View Post
    Actually Jonianne i respectfully disagree...

    the reason it matters to TS women is that it is used to categorize us incorrectly...and it is helpful to people who want to withhold transition related services and treat us all as if we have a sexual disorder...

    the word itself doesnt bother me...call me whatever you want...but its a word and a concept that is used against folks that simply want to live as women and be fairly treated by the medical and insurance communities
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  18. #43
    Weirdest woman ever! docrobbysherry's Avatar
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    You're correct, Joni. At least, in MY case!

    "How many threads have we had here where TGs have said that nothing can compare with the sexual gratification derived over the CDing, not even being with a partner? This does describe a paraphilia, which is defined as a sexual arousal to objects or situations that, if severe enough, may prevent or hinder one's ability to give and receive reciprocal human love ... in other words, someone who cannot have a healthy sexual relationship with a partner because the partner cannot compare to the sexual thrill derived from the CDing. Whether this should be classified as a mental illness is beside the point, really, when the issue is more about mending relationships that have deteriorated because of the AGP"

    Medical terms aside, this is a SERIOUS problem for me! And I SUSPECT for many others here!
    My physical attraction for Sherry has, and is, affecting my performance/desire when I'm with real GGs!

    If I was MARRIED, I'd feel VERY SORRY for my SO!
    As I am for married CDs and their partners, who have this issue!

    And, Stephenie, in my instance, there's NOTHING homosexual about my activities with Sherry. No, "jerking off", or ANY OTHER VISIBLE SIGN that I'm male! I find ANYTHING visibly male to be a turn off!
    Sherry's ALL WOMAN, after all!
    U can't keep doing the same things over and over and expect to enjoy life to the max. When u try new things, even if they r out of your comfort zone, u may experience new excitement and growth that u never expected.

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  19. #44
    Member Kelly Greene's Avatar
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    the shoe fits but it does not change the look of the outfit

  20. #45
    Junior Member jennifer1965's Avatar
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    Hi again. Ok, here goes. Please be kind.

    Remember the Zen koan: "To point at the moon a finger is needed; but woe to the one who mistakes the finger for the moon."

    When I read Dr. Blanchard's writings it explained what I was experiencing. I love the image of myself as a classy, elegant, and confident woman. I want to share that with others. It gives me great pleasure and happiness to do so. And the term autogynephelia helps me understand that -- it is the finger pointing at the moon.

    But no doubt the medical insurance industry uses the term to say tg/ts/cd are suffering from a "mental disorder" and exlcude coverage. Other groups use the term to castigate us as paraphilic freaks. They mistake the finger for the moon.

    And so we attribute good or bad motives to Dr. Blanchard depending on how the term has been used for or against us. But he is only pointing at the moon. It's up to us to see it and figure it out.

    For a long time I was ashamed by my crossdressing. I didn't understand what motivated me. It cost me my marriage and a subsequent relationship. But now I have come to a better understanding of myself and what it means to be Jennifer. I love and respect women. And so I present myself as a confident elegant woman. with style and grace. I hope someday to find a partner who will fully accept that; just as I would fully accept my partner. And I think as a community we, all of us, should ensure that we at all times present a respectful image of women. Otherwise we impair our ability to have full, open relationships.

    But that is not the case. CD sites are replete with rank masturbation, puerile fetishism, and just plain ignorance. How many times does someone post a god-awful pic and ask "do I pass?" How many time have you seen an image of some guy in a pair of satin panties? Or someone who looks lilke the bearded lady at the County Fair? Or bdsm? Of course a very small bit of it is growing pains; but we know when someone has crossed the line. And it happens all too often.

    We as a community owe it to ourselves and to all women that we at all times present a respectful image of women. If you wanna get your jollies prancing around in a skirt flashing your junk at least consider for a moment how you are affecting those cd/tg/ts who are really struggling with their issues and how your behavior makes life much more difficult for them.

    Perhaps you think I'm wrong to say this. Consider this: what if you and best friend are at a ballgame. Your best friend has has too much to drink. He starts making crude remarks to a pretty lady sitting behind you. What are you going to do? Stop him right. You know he's crossed the line. He's offended her and, by implication, you for being associated with him.

    It's no different here. We, all of us, who are trying to figure things out (or who have figured some things out) owe it to ourselves, our community, and society in general to at all times present a thoughtful and respectful image of women. Otherwise we will be forever at the mercy of "labels" right or wrong.

    Who you are on the inside is who you show yourself to be on the outside.

    Be kind to yourselves, love yourselves, love your neighbor.

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  21. #46
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    And, Stephenie, in my instance, there's NOTHING homosexual about my activities with Sherry. No, "jerking off", or ANY OTHER VISIBLE SIGN that I'm male! I find ANYTHING visibly male to be a turn off!!

    See?

  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satrana View Post

    It seems to me that many people having been using Blanchard's easily criticized thesis as a scapegoat to downplay AGP so as not to admit to this thorniest of TG issues.
    Very well said! I hope that everyone who reads this thread will read your entire post. Twice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaitlyn Michele View Post
    ...but its a word and a concept that is used against folks that simply want to live as women and be fairly treated by the medical and insurance communities
    Kaitlyn, we are talking about two different aspects of AGP in this thread, and both aspects are equally valid. As a TS, you point out that Blanchard's theory of AGP as a motive for transition is not well-founded, and further, it is a damaging label for TSs. I don't think anyone here disagrees.

    The CDs are saying that when AGP is present in a relationship, it causes much harm.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stephenie S View Post
    We have a classic case in one of our more active members, yet even he might balk at having to be labeled homosexual.
    Stephenie, Blanchard's study dealt with transitioning TSs, not CDs. Also, he didn't say that all TSs are homosexual, but that TSs have sexual motives for wanting to transition: either they are homosexual, or they are paraphilic. We all agree that this view is narrow, and it is damaging to TSs. But Satrana did bring up a good point: when gender identity is shifted, it does affect the sex drive. And based on posts I've read here from TSs on hormones, it also can affect sexual orientation?
    Reine

  23. #48
    Gold Member Kaitlyn Michele's Avatar
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    Hi Reine

    I agree with you....if you look at my original post in the thread i was pretty descriptive ...this behaviour is very destructive to marraiges......

    all i'm adding is that when you use the same word for 2 different things, (when you apply it to cd's in a marraige situation you are basically co-opting it and ascribing additional meaning not discussed by the author) not everyone gets the nuance that you correctly point out, and the more commonly that word is used, the more it negatively impacts transwomen...

    i accept that my views on the word are selfish and related to my specific situation

    i realize there has to be some word that folks use to help describe common behaviors but the "a" word seems tainted, especially when you actually focus on the nonsensical and simplistic definition used by Blanchard himself


    Kate

  24. #49
    GG ReineD's Avatar
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    I don't think your views are selfish at all. If I were TS, I'd be livid!

    Thankfully, most people within the TG community agree that using AGP as one of the two motives for transitioning is narrow at best. But, this doesn't mean that the condition doesn't exist. Thread after thread in this forum will confirm this. AGP does describe something that is real, even if you do not experience it personally. And I do agree it is unfortunate that it is seen in the medical circles as one of the prime reasons for wanting to transition.

    Does any one know if there are other studies ascribing gender dysphoria as the motive for wanting to transition, and if so, how these studies stack up against Blanchard's? The controversy surrounds AGP's inclusion in the DSM and I am wondering if inroads are being made to change this. It would be nice to begin a new thread about this. We could ferret out more positive studies?
    Reine

  25. #50
    Aspiring Member Blaire's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReineD View Post
    Stephenie, Blanchard's study dealt with transitioning TSs, not CDs. Also, he didn't say that all TSs are homosexual, but that TSs have sexual motives for wanting to transition: either they are homosexual, or they are paraphilic. We all agree that this view is narrow, and it is damaging to TSs. But Satrana did bring up a good point: when gender identity is shifted, it does affect the sex drive. And based on posts I've read here from TSs on hormones, it also can affect sexual orientation?
    Does orientation change? For a TS, the issue is muddied.

    You start with a straight male, and replace his body chemistry to turn him female. At some point men become sexually attractive, and likely women become less so.

    If sexuality is hormone driven, after HRT you have a woman that has become attracted to men. A woman that's attrtacted to men is straight. So is it orientation that changes, or is it the side you're on that changes? We oversimplify orientation by saying "I like women, so I'm straight", rsther than "I like the opposite sex, so I"m hetero"

    The period in between is in transition - but because it is transitory and in such a flux, it should be ignored as far as studies go. It's like making the colour green on white paper. You start white, and end up green, but at some point you had blue before the yellow gets added.
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