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Thread: Autogynophelia

  1. #51
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    Cisgender Superiority and Transgender Inferiority Complexes

    TG and TS people aren’t in love with themselves or their idea of themselves any more than other people. TG and TS people also don’t prefer masturbation to sex with other people any more than average. Good sexual relationships require mutual respect, mutual attraction, and sympathetic reciprocity. Finding compatible partners who truly respect and are truly attracted to TG and TS people can be difficult. I am not inclined to blame TG and TS people for their real or imagined relationship problems. There is much more wrong with how cispeople think about transpeople than how transpeople think about themselves. Try spotting the potential relationship problem in that context.

  2. #52
    Breakin' social taboos TGMarla's Avatar
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    It seems to me that one of the reasons that the concept of autogynephilia is downplayed and reviled is because of the man who originated the idea, and the fact that he had a very narrow, and perhaps disjointed definition of this concept and how it fits into the whole TG spectrum. But this does not mean that the idea itself does not have merit. I find it fascinating that someone could originate, or at least attempt to isolate, such a concept, and yet miss the mark on it so badly.

    When boiled down to gravy, he has identified something that is likely very prevalent in the transgender community: that many who crossdress or are transgendered are sexually aroused and attracted to the concept of themselves being physically female. And I admit that I fall into this category. I am very drawn to the visualization of myself as a woman, as I am to the concept of myself being physically female. I have always been aroused by the concept of myself being physically female.

    As for Blanchard, I don't care one whit about him, or the fact that his science is flawed. He merely identified it, albeit incorrectly. It's a shame that no others have taken this theory and actually done a more complete study on it, one that would actually hold water and have some scientific validity to it. I think then that people would be more willing to accept the idea and apply it with more meaning and compassion for those who fit this description.

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    Aspiring Member joandher's Avatar
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    I mend Trucks does that mean I have it auto-gyne-philia or is it just those mechanics in Philly

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  4. #54
    What is normal anyway? Rianna Humble's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlainaSC View Post
    The post that sparked this thread was about whether or not girls would want to be be female if they could. Some answers in there brought my mind back to the term.
    I took part in that thread and I desire with every fibre of my being to become physically female. However, there is nothing even remotely sexual in my desire.

    I am not homosexual as a GM, and there is nothing paraphilic about my need to transition, so it would seem that I do not fit this definition.

    Does that mean that no transgender person is autogynephilic? Of course not! Neither does the Blanchard study prove that every transgender person is autogynephilic.

    I tend to agree with those who have stated that the distaste for this term comes from the unscientific way that some people have jumped from the behaviour of a small sample to the conclusion that this is the only possible reason for someone to transition.
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  5. #55
    also known as maya :) zoe m's Avatar
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    I agree that using an unscientific notion of AGP should not be used against the TS community. If anything, the concept would seem to me to fit CDs better than TSs. For many CDs (not all, of course), crossdressing does have a sexual aspect to it, just not all the time. Many sexual things come mixed with non-sexual things - the most obvious example being that sex between two individuals can come mixed in with romantic love. What I like about the concept of AGP as applied to CDs (not TSs as seems to have been Blanchard´s intention) is that it gets away from the focus on the clothes themselves towards an imagined state. I never liked the image of transvestic fetishism or whatever you call it because it brought to mind a guy fetishizing a pair of panties or a brassiere. AGP focuses on a state, not on the object. Although I would bet that for many CDs it hasn´t been about having a female body or female organs but about playing the role of a woman in social situations or just to oneself (this is not about having sex with oneself but about the situation itself). Which I guess gets us away from Blanchard´s examples, since they focus on the actual female body, but it is one way that I would rephrase his concept to fit many (again, not all) CDs. Whether his concept fits TSs, I wouldn´t know from personal experience, but there are many TSs saying that it doesn´t. I definitely think there should be much more work done before it is assumed to be correct - it shouldn´t be used to deny needed services to the TS community.

    Coming back to CDs, again, sex comes layered with non-sexual things. We may feel these desires before they´re even sexual, then they become sexual when we hit puberty, then as we struggle to deal with them we try to rephrase them in a way that is not purely sexual but also about other things. I really agree with whoever it was on this threat that said that CDs should struggle to be classy and present an image of the community that we can be proud of. I would guess that many of the ones who are no longer fully in the closet are trying to do just that. Sex is a part of life and we shouldn´t try to deny it or repress it. But it´s mainly for the bedroom or other private places. A proud and dignified expression of crossdressing, indirectly related to that sexual aspect but also distanced from it, can be more public. And yes, from my experience, this AGP, or however we choose to define it, can become a competitor to a relationship with a partner. The challange, if you still want to be with someone, would seem to be to try to reconcile the two or at least keep them aware of each other even if you keep them separate, so that one does not grow out of all proportion (because really, it shouldn´t have to). Just my two cents.

  6. #56
    Junior Member jennifer1965's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maya1980 View Post
    I really agree with whoever it was on this threat that said that CDs should struggle to be classy and present an image of the community that we can be proud of. I would guess that many of the ones who are no longer fully in the closet are trying to do just that. Sex is a part of life and we shouldn´t try to deny it or repress it. But it´s mainly for the bedroom or other private places. A proud and dignified expression of crossdressing, indirectly related to that sexual aspect but also distanced from it, can be more public.
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    coming in a little late on this discussion.. a bit worried i might ramble a bit

    i just read this link http://www.annelawrence.com/twr/becoming_what_we_love.pdf

    as far as i understand that is a softer take on whats being discussed here..

    the reason that i stumbled on this link came about because i am totally obsessed with everything to with transgender. I have been this way since about 5 years old.. and since i am now quite old you can imagine my joy at reading something that finally made sense to me personally.

    some people on this forum seem to want to make a joke out of it or ask why would you be interested in knowing why??

    for me i really would like to understand myself better and hopefully ween myself off this obsession because as stated earlier its something that can effect all aspects of your life...to the point were you do not get much else done.. like an addiction.

    amazingly i had never even heard the term "autogynephilia" before but i had discussed personally in other vaguely related forums my idea that "I loved something so much the i wanted to be that!" .and how this related to women. I also understood in myself the idea that this sophisticated relationship with my alter ego had a romantic and sexual dynamic.

    for sure i used to be a crossdresser but i stopped as i got older ..simply because the image of me dressed looked ugly and unrealistic..no point ... unlike when i was a teenager. But that didn't stop my imagination which took up the slack from there. The internet also took the place of crossdressing... i was now the lazy crossdresser.. i didn't have to bother any more... just let other people do it for me.

    but still i can see myself as in line with autogynephilia and to me it makes total sense... its like im reading my own thoughts.

    personally i don't care for labels as such but to understand and discuss a subject.. lines have to be drawn so you can develop an argument.

    i can understand why some guys who had surgery would take offense to somebody classifying their actions as some elaborate life encompassing fetish but to me it makes sense and i suppose in another life that might have been a path that i might have gone down.. who knows??

    but at the end of the day if that's true..who cares.. its just good to know yourself better.
    Last edited by Nigella; 05-07-2010 at 04:10 PM. Reason: TMI - Email Sent

  8. #58
    Natural Blonde MichelleOBrien's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stephenie S View Post
    Oh Karen. What a pleasant and healthy attitude. Yes, yes, and yes! Why waste the time. Why, oh why? It don't change things one whit. You're still stuck doing what you're doing. Enjoy it!

    Will we always be stuck with these questions?

    Stephie

    Oh, and autogynephilia has a serious component of homosexual behavior in it. THAT is why we don't like the term. Autogynephilia (simplified) states that crossdressers are either homosexuals who are sexually aroused by the thought of themselves as a woman, or homosexuals who crossdress to attract men. That's it. Only two types allowed.

    As you ALL know, there are many, many, more reasons to crossdress, and many, many, of you would be offended to be (rightly or wrongly) classified as homosexuals.
    I'm really not that offended. Though I don't fall under the category of autowhateverthehell, I know there are many out there who are confused between being a crossdresser and being a "sissy". For those of you who don't know, there is a sexual "deviancy", or fetish, involving crossdressing, usually forced, that would fall under the condition of autogynephilia.

    I'm not insulted by people calling me gay. I chalk it up to people's ignorance and the fact that they don't know the intricate workings of a true crossdresser's mind. I'm typically insulted when people think I do it for sexual gratification, and I'm insulted more when somebody tells me my clothes or makeup is ugly.

  9. #59
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    [SIZE=4]I KNOW I have always really been female. But I confess that after hating the way I looked a male for 72 years, I LOVE the way I look now. So I claim to be very vain. But that is not autogynephelia.

    The A word means you want to be a woman because it turns you on or you are in love with yourself as a woman.

    I think this was a very sneaky way to put down TS and TG people by the idiot psychnut that created it.


    I dont think you will find ANY transexual women (or men for that matter) who did not always know either they were persons of the preferred sex or that they were different from others of the birth sex but didn't know why until they discovered the real reason.

    There are more and more of transexual people that are insistent of their true gender at very young ages, 3 and 4, and some as soon as they can talk.

    You can quote all the psychobabble you want but it is a fact that WE KNOW. We are born that way.

    Autogynephilia has been pretty much rejected by the whole psych community except for a few die hard followers of the originator.

    As for male crossdressers, that is a whole different thing, they know they are male and have no desire to become women (although there are cases where a TS started out crossdressing.) I for one never had any desire to crossdress before my Epiphany, but I did once for halloween when I was 12, and YES I liked it. I was disappointed that the teacher fortune teller at school could tell I was a boy.
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  10. #60
    Junior Member JOY445's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JiveTurkeyOnRye View Post
    Essentially it means being attracted to or aroused by the image or thought of yourself as a woman.
    wow..if thats what it is...i have that!! OMG...lol
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  11. #61
    Senior Age Member sissystephanie's Avatar
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    I am definitely a NO!! No question about it! In over 60 years of crossdressing, I have never once actually wanted to become a woman. I am a man and I really like women!! Sure I do like their clothes, but that is all! I get no sexual gratification out of doing so, and don't care! And I certainly am not a Homosexual!!

    Karren as usual said it very well! Why?? Who cares??
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    i dont know if you read the pdf link that was posted but on page 9 it seems to fall in line with what you have experienced... i don't know what the significance is of being born like it since i am a cross dresser and accept that my brain was hardwired like that from the get go... and i always new i was different.
    Last edited by Nigella; 05-07-2010 at 04:14 PM. Reason: Deleting Full quote

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    Quote Originally Posted by jennifer1965 View Post
    Hi, may I suggest that everyone read Dr. Blanchard's writings on the subject? Here's a link to a presentation he made in 2000.

    http://www.autogynephilia.org/Colore...iles/frame.htm

    and here's another link to Dr. Blanchard's writings.


    http://www.autogynephilia.org/origins.htm


    I'm afraid that some of the comments made so far are incorrect, misinformed, or cavalier. I do not wish to argue with anyone. But I do urge all of you to at least read these materials. After that I think you can make up your own mind. There's nothing to be afraid of.

    Take care of yourselves, everyone.
    Darn it! More reading! Can't I just jump to a conclusion like some people do and be done with it? Just kidding! Thanks for the links. I love reading about stuff like this.

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    Well in my experience I knew I was a girl around the age of 4 or 5. There was nothing sexual about it. Just a lot of confusion about the way people treated me. I didn't act like a boy, and I became a major target of bullying.

    But now older I have to ask how does one separate arousal and who you really are? They are interconnected. I think that if (I don't know how to say this.) But feel male after the deed, then maybe it could be autogynephilia. In my case I am female before and after. I don't go into a denial phase.

    I mean I have deliberately gone into denial over the years. but I'm sure many of us know the whiplash we get once the gender issues still remains.

    I think the community is hostile toward the term autogynephilia because the attempted to blanket the community with it back in the late 90's. Again making it feel like a mental issue of immorality. At least in my case I felt that way about it.

  15. #65
    Formerly Deborah Whitney
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    "maybe"

    Count me as a "maybe".

    I don't get turned on by dressing up as a woman, but I do enjoy the fantasy. I'm not in love with myself, but I like myself better when dressed.

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    This thread has gone way beyond the OP and has resulted in a lot of Moderater time being spent in cleaning it up. If this goes off topic one more time it will be closed.
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  17. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by jennifer1965 View Post
    Hi, may I suggest that everyone read Dr. Blanchard's writings on the subject? Here's a link to a presentation he made in 2000.

    http://www.autogynephilia.org/Colore...iles/frame.htm

    and here's another link to Dr. Blanchard's writings.

    http://www.autogynephilia.org/origins.htm
    Thanks for posting this!

    I'm embarrassed to say that I had not read Blanchard's study but had instead based my opinions on the many criticisms there are of his findings. I've taken the liberty of extracting Blanchard's conclusion (slides 38 to 41) from the first link you posted and I submit it here for those who are interested:

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Raymond Blanchard

    Discussion

    The foregoing studies indicate that there are only two fundamentally different types of transsexualism in males: homosexual and non homosexual [heterosexual, bisexual, and asexual]. This finding points to the next question: What do the three nonhomosexual types have in common? I have suggested that the common characteristic is an erotic orientation that I have labeled autogynephilia. Autogynephilia may be defined as a man’s paraphilic tendency to be sexually aroused by the thought or image of himself as a woman.

    According to this hypothesis, heterosexual transsexuals are males in whom autogynephilia interferes the least with normal erotic attraction to other persons — although many heterosexual transsexuals are able to maintain potency with women only by means of cross-gender fantasy during intercourse. Bisexual transsexuals are males in whom autogynephilia gives rise to some secondary erotic interest in men that coexists with the individual’s basic attraction to women. Asexual transsexuals are males in whom autogynephilia simply overshadows or supplants any erotic attraction to (external) women.

    The concept of autogynephilia is obviously related to the concept of transvestism — or transvestic fetishism, as it is called in the DSM. The concept of autogynephilia is much broader, however, in that it encompasses transvestism as well as erotic fantasies and behaviors in which the wearing of women’s apparel is secondary or absent altogether. For example, the favorite masturbatory fantasy of some autogynephiles is simply the mental image of themselves with a nude female body—not doing anything in particular or having sex with another person, but simply existing.

    Thus, the concept of autogynephilia is useful, not only for explaining why heterosexual, asexual, and bisexual transsexuals are more similar to each other than any of them is to the homosexual type, but also for understanding the essential similarity of transvestism and the many other forms of sexual behavior in which paraphilic men enact their erotic fantasies of being women with symbols other than women’s attire.
    First I think it is important to properly define "paraphilia": I'm paraphrasing somewhat, but it is a term used to describe sexual arousal to objects or situations that are not part of arousal between two partners and that because of this, it can cause distress for the paraphiliac or his partner.

    Second, in your second link, Blanchard clearly states that his theoretical statements about autogynephilia (AGP) have evolved over time, among them the belief that "All gender-dysphoric biological males who are not homosexual are instead autogynephilic (erotically aroused by the thought or image of themselves as females)." And further that the statement may be true, false, or somewhere in between and the accuracy of the statement can be resolved only through further research. Blanchard goes on to say that it is important to distinguish between the truth or falseness of theories about autogynephilia on the one hand, and the existence or nonexistence of autogynephilia on the other, and that the primary evidence that autogynephilia exists is the self-report of biological males who say “I am sexually excited by the idea of having breasts,” “I am sexually excited by the idea of having a vagina,” “I am sexually excited by the idea of being a woman.” There are many posts in this very forum that confirm this.

    Back to the first link, one observation I make is that Blanchard's questions (slides 8 to 37) deal strictly with erotic arousal and do not touch on any other motives for a desire to transition. This is evident in his conclusion where he discusses the erotic nature of non homosexual vs. homosexual transsexuals. Nowhere do I see any mention of erotic arousal, or any other motive as a reason for transition. Nor do I see a statement to the effect that all males who wish to transition do so solely for either homosexual or paraphilic sexual motives. Blanchard further states that the concept of AGP is broader as it also applies to transvestites (crossdressers) .. although there is no empiric evidence of this in the above research. But we do see post after post here that corroborate the statement.

    Admittedly the research has small samples (under 200), and it is questionable as to whether there would be such a high percentage of AGP among the subjects had there been significantly more participants and from a broader sample than Blanchard's own patients. But Blanchard himself acknowledges the need for additional research.

    The contested issue then is not whether AGP exists, or even if it is one of the motives for transition, but whether it is a paraphilia. A condition of paraphilic behaviors is that it should cause anxiety or distress among the people who exhibit the behaviors or their partners. It is clear just from reading posts throughout this forum that AGP is enjoyed by many, but whether or not it impedes the full enjoyment of sex between a TG and her partner is up to them to decide. Together.

    I invite everyone to comment.
    Last edited by ReineD; 05-10-2010 at 03:53 AM.
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  19. #69
    Banned Read only Satrana's Avatar
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    Still amazed by the amount of denial out there. Is it really that difficult to believe that many TS do sexually fantasize about this? Just as there are different reasons to crossdress so there are different reasons why people transition. Do not feel threatened if this description does not fit yourself but at least acknowledge it does fit others.

    Re paraphilia- the problem I have with this is that anything which falls outside the norm is considered paraphilia. But what is the norm? Do you think a jungle tribe would not consider heels, makeup, nail varnish, nylons etc to be outside the norm? Anyone who enjoys any type of role playing or being tied up is a paraphiliac. In fact anything outside of vanilla sex with two naked partners could be considered paraphilia. Since the term only has meaning within the cultural norms and pretty much everybody does or is interested in something that could be included in the definition, it seems to me to be of little value.

    As for how this affects couples - IMO this has less to do with the content of the paraphilia than with the cultural conditioning and prejudices in each individual. So it all boils down to finding a compatible mate who shares your values. And isn't that what the mating game is all about? Of course to achieve good results requires honesty and communication, something which humans are usually not so good at.

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    Kaitlyn Michele,

    That was a terrific article that you posted. It discusses one of the primary problems I have with the all or nothing AGN theory---those of us who desired to be women pre-puberty. Like the author I remember years later being horrified when it led to arousal.

  21. #71
    Gold Member Kaitlyn Michele's Avatar
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    i remember being in a pool and i was 6 or 7, and the adults got the pool to themselves and kids had to leave for one hour per day...i would duck underwater while the lifeguard whistled at me to leave...and i would get a tingly, strong and very pleasurable feeling down there...i had no idea what it was, but i enjoyed and had no guilt about it..

    i guess you could say i started out as a hidingunderwaterphiliac

  22. #72
    Aspiring Member Blaire's Avatar
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    This makes me scratch my head a little... What is homo- or hetero-sexuality to a TS? If we're talking about an FtM "stuck in the wrong body" TS, are they homosexual liking men or women? If the mind is right, and the body is wrong, then the hetero FtM person (with male bits) would be attracted to others with male bits? Arrgh!! My brain hurts...

    I think those links above will need thrice-readings to make sense. Kind of like legislation.

    Satrana, per your thoughts on the -philias, I'm not sure one needs to take it so loosely... Isn't it more a -philia if the object is generally required for arousal? Then followed up with the term disorder if the philia gets in the way of normal function? if its really that easy for a philia, then what's the technical term for whatever-I-can-reach-philia?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blaire View Post
    Isn't it more a -philia if the object is generally required for arousal?
    As previously mentioned, a paraphilia is only a disorder if it causes anxiety or distress. So the interpretation is very wide. In other words if a TG prefers to become aroused by herself and with herself and she doesn't have a partner who is left out in the cold, then it is not an issue. It is not something that causes distress.

    If, removing the focus away from self-pleasure for a moment, a couple both enjoy any of the wide variety of BDSM practices together, then it is not paraphilic. But if someone cannot achieve orgasm without a particular object, be it shoes, a whip, latex, or whatever, then it makes it difficult for this person to have a 'normal' sexual relationship with a partner. And by 'normal' I mean the ability to allow one's emotions about the parter be the source of the arousal, and enjoy the reciprocity of the love-making experience.

    But, I'm speaking from a GG's point of view. I know that men are much more visual and I don't know what goes through some non-TG guys minds (especially when they've been in the relationship for awhile) when they makes love to a partner, whether it is the young hottie next door or the porn flick he watched yesterday. But if it is these things and not the partner, I guarantee you that at some level his partner will feel it and it will cause distress in the relationship. Whether or not this guy's need to rely on images of others in order to orgasm is a paraphilia is open to interpretation, but it still very much will cause distress in the relationship.

    If a GG feels that her TG partner is getting off on being a woman more than on making love with her, she will feel like an accessory and it will cause distress in the relationship. As to whether or not it is a paraphilia (if it comes between a TG and her partner and it causes distance or distress), it is up to the couple to determine this. Together.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaitlyn Michele View Post
    I agree with Ms. Orens' preference to use the term "hetero female" for a MtF TS who is attracted to men instead of the "homosexual TS" definition that Blanchard uses. But, the discussion is not about what word we use in order to describe a TS's sexual attraction, but whether AGP does or does not exist, among TSs and non-TSs.

    Ms. Orens also acknowledges that she is autogynephilic, and further that she gets off on forced feminization, but she adds that it was not the reason for wanting to transition. I did not read anything in Dr. Blanchard's study that disproves her position. Please do read Blanchard's conclusion that I extracted from his study. Unless I'm missing his point, he does speak of erotic experiences, not motives for transition. Ms. Orens then concludes that it is her sexual reactions to feelings of fear that cause her to be AGP. I don't know how many members here who are AGP will relate to her. It might be interesting to start a separate thread asking the question.

    Again I would like to emphasize that Blanchard himself calls for additional research exploring sexuality among TGs (TSs and CDs). I for one would love to see a large scale study. I am guessing that the results would show a percentage of TGs are AGP, although I have no doubt that the overall percentage would be less than in Blanchard's study, since his samples were small and were comprised of the Clarke Institute patients.

    This is a bit off topic, but it is interesting that Ms. Orens discounts Kate Bornstein's self-identification (she feels she is neither male nor female) as being in denial about herself and she is a victim of internalized transphobia. Ms. Orens seems to believe that all individuals who vary from the gender norms (gender ID matching the genitalia) should be TS? And then she goes on to say that lesbian, late onset transsexuals are in denial over their attraction to men because of their feelings of shame, or because they don't pass as women and they feel that women will accept them more than men will?

    Ms. Orens' article has good points, but she also makes some major sweeping statements.

    At any rate, Kaitlyn, when you posted the link above, were you responding to my post on AGP, in other words do you believe that there is no such thing as AGP and that all the people in this forum who identify with it are misrepresenting themselves? Or was the link posted as a rebuttal to Blanchard in general?
    Last edited by ReineD; 05-11-2010 at 04:33 PM.
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    maybe 40 yrs ago or even 30yrs ago but I would have to say not now. Make me younger, I'll start over.
    Put a little lipstick on you'll feel better

  25. #75
    Member Anneliese's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Posts
    452
    As stated in my initial post, I CD during times of great stress. It's one of many things which calm me down, make me feel good, and center me.

    That said, I am in love with myself. Is that a bad thing? Many, if not most people, hate themselves. Even highly successful supposedly "normal" people are often self-loathing. I have never hated myself, not for a single solitary second.

    I can honestly say, if I ever met a woman who was laid back like I am, who dressed up as a hippie, as I do, who liked what I liked, who disliked what I dislike, I would probably propose marriage shortly. Have I ever found anyone even remotely close to who I am? Nope.

    EVERY relationship I've been in has required me to sacrifice a part of myself in order to keep it going, and I simply WILL NOT ever do that again.

    I'd much rather imagine being with myself. There is no harm done, and I am admittedly turned on by myself dressed as a woman.

    Are there women out there who would work for me, as well as for her? Of course. What is the likelihood I will ever stumble across that person? A million to one, with the time spent on the search being wasted time in my opinion. I am 56 years old. I have experienced the best sex in existence with my ex-wife.

    So far, among the rest of the ten or so relationships I've had before or since, I am hotter, nicer, smarter, and more fun to be with than ANY of them.

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