Is there such thing as a FtM CDER ?

[Sheila]

I have been having a discussion via PM with someone who claims there isnt such thing as a F2M CDER,. I on the other hand maintain there are F2M CDER's
So come on you guys, am I right or am I right

[Kieron Andrew]

I have been having a discussion via PM with someone who claims there isnt such thing as a F2M CDER,. I on the other hand maintain there are F2M CDER's
So come on you guys, am I right or am I right

You are right...

We have a few guys on the board that when dressed male they indentify as a FtM CDer ie male for the time and moment, but when dressed female ID as female, if there is MtF CDers then they has to be the opposite!...oh and before anyone says, 'that is just a tomboy'...that is TOTALLY different! Tomboys still ID as female

[Ze]

They're just very rare. And for what it's worth, Sheila, some medical texts still argue that FtM TGs don't exist at all, either.

[Kieron Andrew]

And for what it's worth, Sheila, some medical texts still argue that FtM TGs don't exist at all, either.

I'd like to chat to those who write those medical texts

[Ze]

I'd like to chat to those who write those medical texts

They'll probably just look at you and say, "There's more gravy than there is grave about you!"

[BRANDYJ]

I often wondered the same thing. About the closest I've come to knowing a female crossdresser is the daughter of a very good GG friend of mine. Her daughter was once married, had a child, and now is totally lesbian. However, she does drag shows as a guy. But when I had the pleasure of meeting her, she looked and acted just like any other GG and no one would ever suspect she could dress and act male very well. I have seen many pictures of her dressed as a male. But other then her, I have never known of other GG's that are strictly crossdressers

[Sheila]

Thanks guys, I am glad I wasn't wrong again !!!!

[Marshchild]

They're just very rare.

I wonder why that is. Any theories, anyone?

[Sheila]

Sheila, some medical texts still argue that FtM TGs don't exist at all, either.

well I worked in the medical field :Ze: and I know how wrong they can be

[Schatten Lupus]

I have talked to a few GG's at other forums (non-cd/tg related) who love dressing in males clothing for the purpose of being seen as a male by others.

[Ze]

I wonder why that is. Any theories, anyone?

It comes down to how one identifies. A good example is very butch lesbians--the kind you tend to mistake for men by appearances alone. They dress in men's clothes and pass as men (and sometimes even prefer male pronouns), yet are neither cross-dressers nor transmen because they don't identify as such. Rather, they still identify as women, hence the "lesbian" part.

A bit like how transwomen (or transmen) aren't cross-dressers because of how they identify and what that identification constitutes.

[Sheila]

It comes down to how one identifies. A good example is very butch lesbians--the kind you tend to mistake for men by appearances alone. They dress in men's clothes and pass as men (and sometimes even prefer male pronouns), yet are neither cross-dressers nor transmen because they don't identify as such. Rather, they still identify as women, hence the "lesbian" part.

A bit like how transwomen (or transmen) aren't cross-dressers because of how they identify and what that identification constitutes.

But surely Ze, it is not just butch lesbians who dress and pass in male clothes,and prefer male pronouns ......... sorry but that almost sound like stereo typing from where I am sitting ..... [SIZE="1"](goes and sits somewhere else to look )[/SIZE]

I am sure that there are F2M CDER's who, because of how society view dress code have an easier time of dressing in mainstream e.g. when doing the top & tails bit, it being seen as cute (not that I am sure they appreciate that patronizing view, by society, whereas a male in a dress is seen (as we are led to ) as weird and jeans and a top/t-shirt/shirt are seen as norm for GG's to wear

I mean if you read M2F you are aware that we as GG's are seen by society to dress less than ladylike, in fact mannish, so surely it then makes it easier for the F2M CDER to "PASS" on a daily basis, (short spiked hair being a fairly common look on GG's), I seriously am not trying to make light of the seriousness or dedication of F2M TS, ..... that is an entirely different ball game (pardon the pun) ..... but on a daily basis will it not lead to less angst for F2M CDER with their daily passability not in question, when dressing as male, hence perhaps why so many of them do not appear on CD.Com looking for support in the numbers that M2F's do ?

[Ze]

Of course not, Sheila. That's why I said they were an example. As for the patronizing, I think I can safely say that the bulk of us get that, FtM CD or not. The patronizing becomes a whole lot more dangerous the more the patronizer sees the individual isn't trying to be "cute." So that's where a lot of the trouble starts.

I can't really vouch for the "passability" of FtM CDs either way, but if they're trying to go the whole nine yards with it, I don't see how their general public experiences would differ much than ours (TGs). It's unfortunate.

But when it comes down to a "pants/t-shirt" debate, we must always remember that there's a big difference between wearing men's pants/t-shirts and women's/t-shirts pants. Sure, women can wear pants/t-shirts now (hell, they fought for that right!), but they're still women's pants/t-shirts, and hence are pants/t-shirts reconstructed so that they are permissible for women to wear.

We can also get into the lounge wear vs formal attire debate, but I'm getting tired again.

[Fab Karen]

It wasn't that long ago in relative terms that women wearing pants was considered just as "wierd" as a male person in a dress. It wasn't always taken as "being cute." For example people were shocked to see Marlene Dietrich wearing "a man's suit."

[Ze]

For example people were shocked to see Marlene Dietrich wearing "a man's suit."

Well, going back to my scant lounge vs formal point, I'd argue that's still very much a problem. If I go around in a men's t-shirt, not as many weird looks, but look out when I feel like a button-down and a casual tie. I did this once at my college and the feedback I received was so bad that I never did it again.

Sure, I've noticed a few famous women rarely donning a man's suit or whatnot for magazines, but that's a huge entertainment factor there. Put that same person in general public and we have a problem.

[Fab Karen]

It's sadly probably still taken as very wierd in some areas of the country, but it's true even in a world reknown area like where I live it would still be rare to see a woman dressed that way ( there are feminized versions, such as Hillary Clinton wears, which is a different category ), so I see what you're saying.
In Marlene's case people were doubly shocked, also because "she's not wearing a dress/skirt."

[Thornton]

I'm always surprised to hear this, because I see girls crossdress all the time in my hometown. Are they drag kings? No. But they do crossdress. I don't know if they're lesbians or tomboys or what, but, no one really seems to care. Men's clothing tend to be more comfortable/practical than women's, I always assumed that's why those women wore them all the time.

[WalT]

I see a lot of girls wearing pants but most of the girls I see out actually crossdressing (i.e. actually wearing men's clothing) are either the gamer girl sort, the occasional metalhead or two, or, well, lesbians.

[sherri52]

Your right Shiela. I was asked that very question today. Ftm Cd's do exist but the percentage of them transitioning is much greater than that of the Mtf Cd's

[Ze]

I'm always surprised to hear this, because I see girls crossdress all the time in my hometown. Are they drag kings? No. But they do crossdress. I don't know if they're lesbians or tomboys or what, but, no one really seems to care. Men's clothing tend to be more comfortable/practical than women's, I always assumed that's why those women wore them all the time.

*shakes you* How many times do I have to tell you this, Thorny? You live in Mass-a-choo-sits! Your state doesn't count!

God I can't wait until I've moved up there.

[Thornton]

Hey! We have our fair share of problems! Like...um... hmmm...

[Satrana]

We have a few guys on the board that when dressed male they indentify as a FtM CDer ie male for the time and moment, but when dressed female ID as female, if there is MtF CDers then they has to be the opposite!

This is not a correct definition of CDs. There are many MTF CDs who do not ID as female when crossdressed - I am one of them.

Tomboys still ID as female

Not true, there was a tomboy who lived in my street during my childhood who wanted everyone to call her Scott. Later in her teens she dropped the tomboy behavior and conformed as a normal girl.

I am puzzled why there are apparently no forums anywhere for FTM CDers? Even if they do not operate with the stress and stigmas that other TGs cope with, they would still recognize they were different and want to get in contact with others. In this age where every conceivable behavior and pastime is represented on the web where are the FTM CDer sites? I have spent 30 minutes scouring the web and have only come across references to drag kings and lesbians. This is very puzzling when you consider that MTF CDs probably account for about 5% of the male population.

Maybe FTM CDers do not identify with the term crossdresser thinking that only applies to men and they use a different term altogether? Maybe they label themselves tomboys even if members here think that is incorrect?

The there is this from www.glbtq.com " Women who Cross-Dress generally do so for reasons quite different from those that motivate men to cross-dress."

[Sheila]

This is not a correct definition of CDs. There are many MTF CDs who do not ID as female when crossdressed - I am one of them.

Kieron did not say ALL he said

if there is MtF CDers then they has to be the opposite!

[PetiteDuality]

It's funny to see how many people thinks that a tomboy is probably a lesbian, while there are many threads in this site emphasizing the "I'm a CD but not gay at all"

[Deborah Jane]

I am puzzled why there are apparently no forums anywhere for FTM CDers?

There are, the forum you are on now is as much for FTM CDers as it is for MTF CDers.
We all share many similarities on our journeys and the ways in which we all deal with them.

I agree, many of us do crossdress for differant reasons, but at the end of the day, we are all still very similar in differant ways.