Terminology - TG and TS ARE NOT THE SAME THING

[CherryZips]

I'd like to defend labels.

They're useful for good reasons.

-Avoids Confusion; if you don't have labels it leads to miscommunication - with post op ts being seen as fetishists that have taken it too far and married cds being asked how the hormones are going.

-Personally Useful; would it really be better to grow up as a kid and be told well there's just this group of people who do stuff. Or is it better to hear the subtle variations and different roles there are? If you want a happy life isn't it better that you can read up on things and see who you might be so you can make better decisions on your life path by learning from others? Just because you remove the signs doesn't stop their being paths (which there clearly are) but it does stop being getting to where we might be happy faster.

-Understanding; I'm not generally a fan of social revolution but if people want accepted for being who they are pretending there are no labels isn't going to help. Understanding ourselves lets people know basic things like; we're not harmful to them and how they should interact with our different needs. We have more labels now for ordinary psychological states and we are better for it.

-Dignity; people are different, differences have names. If we all have to be the same in order to get on then thats no kind of acceptance. If you can't label yourself maybe you're not accepting yourself?

-Realistic; whether we want it or not the groupings exist, and yes groups can mean hierarchies. But those class systems are going to appear anyway. Better to name things and recognise those follies for what they are.

Did that sound angry? I'm not angry at all. Just fascinated by the topic. Maybe there should be sociology section? Or would that be divisive?

I regard myself as crossdresser for erotic purposes and mild gender reasons and I see myself as being on the transgender spectrum. I can see some transexuals might have a problem with that and I can understand that and thats why I believe in subtler labels.

Of course I don't have a handy list to produce.....which is where my point falls down.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

I am she as you are he as we are all together ..
or something like that..

i hope we all want the same thing...peace on earth and good will towards men...and women, and we are all equal as human beings in every way

but there is a huge fundamental gap between what a crossdresser is, and what a transsexual is... there just is...

men are men...women are women...the fact that i changed my outside appearance, and even my internal parts!! to be myself is different than expressing a feminine side...its black and white...

in my opinion, that's all a big reason why you will find lots of transwomen say "i'm not transgender..i'm a woman"... and others that are ok with saying they are transgender don't like it so much when a person that is into crossdressing on the weekends says they are transgender too..it just doesnt feel right..

this is all just my opinion,
but when an outsider looks to understand "us", how does it help if their understanding is wrong?

if i walk into a place of work, female, but known as ts, still anatomically incorrect and i need to go to the bathroom, i can get in trouble..i might not even get hired because an HR manager quietly advises sr mgmt that it may be a problem
it impacts my livelyhood.....that has nothing whatsoever to do with crossdressing..its not crossdressing....saying we are the same doesnt help me at all...thats a selfish example but its true..

i respect that you can do and say what you want. but that's how if affects me..and theres not a whole bunch i can do about it...the cat is out of the bag, and the world pretty much accepts the term transgender as inclusive

but i'm compelled to stand up for my own identity, and its totally fair for everyone else to do the same

[lizbendalin]

As someone who goes to schools and other locations to educate students and the general public on the transgender community I have a specific interest in the use of terms.

I think it is of utmost importance that we can settle on some standard usage and understanding of words. All of us have the self-interest to be able to define who we are. We all want to be us, whatever that us is. When we all have different definitions and understandings of shared words, when we say to someone we are TG, TS, TV CD, GQ or whatever, all we do is muddy the waters as they may have heard those exact same terms being used in completely different ways. If we are at all interested in gaining greater acceptance and understanding from the "normal" population we must move toward a common usage of these words.

And just a note, one cannot be transgendered, one is transgender. You say "I am transgender", or "s/he is transgender." You cannot be transgendered, that's like saying someone is straighted, or gayed, or asianed, or Britished; it goes against the rules of the English language.

[Anneliese]

Reading posts here would indicate some are certain of exactly who and what they are. Others are constantly evolving, while still others are confused. I am a CD who has never known anything but hetero relationships who would may be transitioning to TS. I have little to no desire for women...or men...but am ridiculously turned on by pre-op transsexuals (including myself dressed) but have not yet acted on this. So, if a CDer is turned on by those who are TS, what label does one place on them? Transgender might cover it temporarily.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

you are what you are...the fact that some of us have not figured it out doesnt change what you "really" are...

in fact, the labels may make it worse for you...especially if you somoehow view one label as more or less desirable..
if you just defined yourself as "a person that likes...." or as "a person that is.." and then fill in the blanks yourself then there would be no problem...evolving over time is about what you think of yourself, not what you "are" or what you "like to do"

[Shananigans]

Reading posts here would indicate some are certain of exactly who and what they are. Others are constantly evolving, while still others are confused. I am a CD who has never known anything but hetero relationships who would may be transitioning to TS. I have little to no desire for women...or men...but am ridiculously turned on by pre-op transsexuals (including myself dressed) but have not yet acted on this. So, if a CDer is turned on by those who are TS, what label does one place on them? Transgender might cover it temporarily.

You are an individual...but, I might note that I would have had no f'ing idea what you were talking about had you not used labels. That's where the hippie love view of complete unity and lack of labels ends...when I can't understand your personal situation, or what the hell you are saying. Labels and definition are used for clarity and understanding. You exemplified this by using a variety of them in your paragraph to explain your situation, but at the end you are your own individual.

[Pink Person]

A transgender person is someone who self-identifies as one gender but has some significant qualities that are commonly associated with the opposite gender. A transsexual person is someone who self-identifies as one sex but has some significant qualities that are commonly associated with the opposite sex.

A cisgender person is someone who self-identifies as one gender and doesn’t have any significant qualities that are commonly associated with the opposite gender. A cissexual person is someone who self-identifies as one sex and doesn’t have any significant qualities that are commonly associated with the opposite sex.

Transgender people are transmasculine or transfeminine.

Transsexual people are transmale or transfemale.

Cisgender people are masculine or feminine.

Cissexual people are male or female.

Gender is a general formal and functional characteristic. Sex is a specific formal characteristic.

People who self-identify as one gender but dress like the opposite gender are transgender, not cisgender. Get a second opinion from any cisgender person if you need one.

Of course, all transgender people and cisgender people come in many variations. However, there is no intersection between these two groups.

Burly studs who wear dresses are not really burly studs, sorry to say, but some of them are very cute in a very transgender (not cisgender) non-manly manner.

P.S. Transsexual and cissexual are both sex types, not sexuality types. This post is about gender types and sex types, not about sexuality types. Honestly, I would prefer the terms transsex and cissex to transsexual and cissexual, but I am deferring to common usage in defining sex types. I am definitely not discussing any sexuality types (hetero, homo, or bi) or their relationship to gender types and sex types in this post.

[Lorileah]

We all want to understand. We want to understand who a person is. We want to understand who we are. And in this forum we are all different, we know that much. If we were all the same it would be at best boring. But why do we insist on separating ourselves from each other even more?

you are what you are...the fact that some of us have not figured it out doesnt change what you "really" are...

No you are who you are but when you need something to describe who you are for rights and legislation and academia you are a part of a group. It looks here like some people who say they don't like labels actually latch on to a label. A more specific label like "I am a TS! not a CD!" but then say don't label me.

but there is a huge fundamental gap between what a crossdresser is, and what a transsexual is... there just is...

There is? This is the ultimate in labeling and borders on elitism. It gets back to the "us" vs "them" again. It sin't a battle. It isn't a class war but somehow it always gets back to that. Somewhere along the line someone here starts the "you can't possibly understand what I am going through because YOU are not one of me." We are all in the same boat here and if we don't start rowing together we will die of starvation. This is a continuum not a linear progression. We don't all "evolve" into getting surgery and finishing our lives living as women. But we are all in that "boat" of being able to get jobs, keep jobs, get housing, even, yes dare I say it, use the restroom. Let's get off the I am something YOU can never understand. I will never be a lot of things but that does not mean I don't work to understand those things.

The word transgenderism (be it noun, verb, adjective whatever) is the current term that will help define people who fall under the gender dysphoria group. If you are post-op TS and you are a woman...great. If you are a TS no matter what physical surgery you may or may not have you are transgender(ed) and if you want the rights that ENDA and other laws are going to provide (hopefully) you will have to accept that.

Be specific about who you are. Ok. But also be assured that that specificity is a part of a broader group. Can you imagine where civil rights would be now if each individual ethnicity decided they didn't want to part of the larger group?

Enough TS vs CD stuff OK? Especially when we don't even have the same definitions of what each of those are. We are one group

I am she as you are he as we are all together ..
or something like that..

its black and white...

No it isn't. And you make that point in your post later. But yes we are all together.

[ReineD]

I Hope My Mom Doesn’t Think This Is Childish

No, not childish at all. At least you're willing to discuss it and come up with alternative meanings if you disagree with prior posts.

I don't doubt your definitions, but are they your own, or can you cite where they come from if you got them from somewhere? I'd like to learn more about them, thanks.

You exemplified this by using a variety of them in your paragraph to explain your situation, but at the end you are your own individual.

Well said, Shananigans!

So there are three debates. One, whether or not there should be an unbrella term for anyone who is not cis; two, whether we should have terms to explain who individuals are within the trans community; three, whether or not we should agree on the terms, and if we do, how do we reach a concensus.

[JulieK1980]

We all want to understand. We want to understand who a person is. We want to understand who we are. And in this forum we are all different, we know that much. If we were all the same it would be at best boring. But why do we insist on separating ourselves from each other even more?



No you are who you are but when you need something to describe who you are for rights and legislation and academia you are a part of a group. It looks here like some people who say they don't like labels actually latch on to a label. A more specific label like "I am a TS! not a CD!" but then say don't label me.



There is? This is the ultimate in labeling and borders on elitism. It gets back to the "us" vs "them" again. It sin't a battle. It isn't a class war but somehow it always gets back to that. Somewhere along the line someone here starts the "you can't possibly understand what I am going through because YOU are not one of me." We are all in the same boat here and if we don't start rowing together we will die of starvation. This is a continuum not a linear progression. We don't all "evolve" into getting surgery and finishing our lives living as women. But we are all in that "boat" of being able to get jobs, keep jobs, get housing, even, yes dare I say it, use the restroom. Let's get off the I am something YOU can never understand. I will never be a lot of things but that does not mean I don't work to understand those things.

The word transgenderism (be it noun, verb, adjective whatever) is the current term that will help define people who fall under the gender dysphoria group. If you are post-op TS and you are a woman...great. If you are a TS no matter what physical surgery you may or may not have you are transgender(ed) and if you want the rights that ENDA and other laws are going to provide (hopefully) you will have to accept that.

Be specific about who you are. Ok. But also be assured that that specificity is a part of a broader group. Can you imagine where civil rights would be now if each individual ethnicity decided they didn't want to part of the larger group?

Enough TS vs CD stuff OK? Especially when we don't even have the same definitions of what each of those are. We are one group



No it isn't. And you make that point in your post later. But yes we are all together.

This is EXACTLY what I was trying to sputter out my thoughts in my post! lol! Very well said!

[msniki48]

I just posted a comment about this, but I think it deserves a thread.

*Transgender
is a general term applied to a variety of individuals, behaviors, and groups involving tendencies to vary from the usual gender roles.*



So pretty much everyone on this site except for SOs and admirers are transgendered, why is that so hard for some to accept?

!

Transgendered...involving tendencies to vary from the usual gender roles..

Amanda that describes so many of us here...me included. i feel i am TG...I cross dress to express that side of me. There are also many members of the site, that do not in any way try to present as female, and dress or underdress more for sexual enjoyment...as soon as they are done ...off comes the clothing....and they are back to being a guy. I don't think that is TG.

so i believe that not only the SO's...are not TG, but we have some other members here that simply cross dress to cross dress


hugs.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Hi Lorileah...i think we've had this debate in different ways before...

First off i have to say i disagree with your premise regarding elitism...i'm quite offended by your inference and I bet just about anybody here who has read my thousands of posts will see that i am anything but elitist.

the only way you can say that is if somehow you equate the word crossdresser as more negative than transsexual...where did i say that? nowhere.

i hear you on your point about saying no labels and then using them...i can't figure a way around it and reasonably discuss this issue......if you want to get semantic about it, i can only say i'm quite guilty but was trying to comment on the "label" of transgender for a large inclusive group of people...and although i used the words ts and cd....i would argue that we (and pretty much everybody here) know the difference..having similar experiences is not the same as being the same..the fact that we have shared similar experiences like going outside and being scared because of what we wear is one major way that we are all the same

i''m not even remotely saying that you can't understand something...

i'm saying that if you say you are man and dress, and i say i'm a woman and dress, our motives are totally different...they are not the same...the fact that our motives and goals are different matters..but neither is better.

however, i am saying that you don't dress up in women's clothes at work, I'm saying that you have no bathroom issue where you work, i'm saying that you don't go to a job interview in a skirt, longish hair and makeup..and worry about whether they know, or whether they care.. you don't have your credit cards taken away from you, you don't spend $100,000 of thousands of dollars to improve your quality of life..you are less likely to lose your wife and family....you don't get turned away by doctors and most importantly you don't view yourself as someone that is basically nonexistent until you are able to change gender roles..you don't take life threatening drugs because the alternative is life threatening as well...
do you view all this as elitist? as false?... btw a crossdressing guy has every right to do all of the above, why doesnt he? i'll answer my own question..because he's not transsexual..and has no desire to be...and if he does desire it...then i bet dollars to donuts he's on the way to some self serious self discovery

the fact that i have all these problems and you don't doesnt mean you don't have alot of problems too....it doesnt mean that there is something you can't understand, and i certainly don't think my problems are better than yours, or anybody elses for that matter...

you simply cannot say "enough with the cd and ts stuff" and get away with it.....it matters. there are CD"s and there are TS's ...that doesnt make it a competition, that doesnt mean one is better ...and i never said it was...

i wouldnt have put such a long answer but calling me elitist pisses me off...i have an opinion, i shared it..i said i don't know the answer but this is how it feels to me...why you have such a problem with me is a mystery to me..

[Shananigans]

Hi Lorileah...i think we've had this debate in different ways before...

First off i have to say i disagree with your premise regarding elitism...i'm quite offended by your inference and I bet just about anybody here who has read my thousands of posts will see that i am anything but elitist.

the only way you can say that is if somehow you equate the word crossdresser as more negative than transsexual...where did i say that? nowhere.

i hear you on your point about saying no labels and then using them...i can't figure a way around it and reasonably discuss this issue......if you want to get semantic about it, i can only say i'm quite guilty but was trying to comment on the "label" of transgender for a large inclusive group of people...and although i used the words ts and cd....i would argue that we (and pretty much everybody here) know the difference..having similar experiences is not the same as being the same..the fact that we have shared similar experiences like going outside and being scared because of what we wear is one major way that we are all the same

i''m not even remotely saying that you can't understand something...

i'm saying that if you say you are man and dress, and i say i'm a woman and dress, our motives are totally different...they are not the same...the fact that our motives and goals are different matters..but neither is better.

however, i am saying that you don't dress up in women's clothes at work, I'm saying that you have no bathroom issue where you work, i'm saying that you don't go to a job interview in a skirt, longish hair and makeup..and worry about whether they know, or whether they care.. you don't have your credit cards taken away from you, you don't spend $100,000 of thousands of dollars to improve your quality of life..you are less likely to lose your wife and family....you don't get turned away by doctors and most importantly you don't view yourself as someone that is basically nonexistent until you are able to change gender roles..you don't take life threatening drugs because the alternative is life threatening as well...
do you view all this as elitist? as false?... btw a crossdressing guy has every right to do all of the above, why doesnt he? i'll answer my own question..because he's not transsexual..and has no desire to be...and if he does desire it...then i bet dollars to donuts he's on the way to some self serious self discovery

the fact that i have all these problems and you don't doesnt mean you don't have alot of problems too....it doesnt mean that there is something you can't understand, and i certainly don't think my problems are better than yours, or anybody elses for that matter...

you simply cannot say "enough with the cd and ts stuff" and get away with it.....it matters. there are CD"s and there are TS's ...that doesnt make it a competition, that doesnt mean one is better ...and i never said it was...

i wouldnt have put such a long answer but calling me elitist pisses me off...i have an opinion, i shared it..i said i don't know the answer but this is how it feels to me...why you have such a problem with me is a mystery to me..

That sums everything up perfectly. Using labels isn't a way to say that one group is "better" than the other, only that there are differences between the two. Of course, as you stated, there are similarities. There are similarities between all people...so, I don't know how that is really type of argument at all. We are all people and so we are one and blah blah. We have labels because there are differences between people. Differences make us unique. They give us a face. As you pointed out, knowing the difference between a transsexual and a crossdresser helps us understand the different internal struggles between the two.

Hell, if everyone hates labels...let's not say "ladies" or "girls" or "boys" or "female." Let's not call it "en femme"...it becomes laughable...it becomes stupid...it becomes a childish.

Labels are wrong when used to say that there is group superiority but NO ONE on here is arguing that, so I don't know why it has been brought up.

I am a unique individual. I am described by a variety of labels. You might call me bisexual. You might call me a woman. You might call me an intellectual. You might call me a bitch.

And, you'd be right.

[Lorileah]

i'm quite offended by your inference and I bet just about anybody here who has read my thousands of posts will see that i am anything but elitist.

And I apologize for hurting your feelings. How about I change that to certain transsexuals on this forum? Maybe you aren't in that group but the way I read your post read that way top me. It still kind of does with

i'm saying that if you say you are man and dress, and i say i'm a woman and dress, our motives are totally different...they are not the same...

which if a "CD" by your definition reads it says "hey I am entitled you are just doing it for fun." There are some of us here who aren't either/or which is the point of the definition argument for using an inclusive word like transgender (note the medium is a problem because what one writes is not necessarily what one meant). There are a lot of us here (N.B. the word "us") who are not men in a dress and who for whatever reason cannot call ourselves transsexuals. Why? Because we have been told in so many words that is you ain't gonna get surgery you ain't a TS. Your post seemed to define people who are real vs people who play act. Again, probably not what you meant to say but that is how I read it and I think many more will also

the only way you can say that is if somehow you equate the word crossdresser as more negative than transsexual...where did i say that? nowhere.

No but that is the inference I get. See above

i''m not even remotely saying that you can't understand something...

and here is my mea culpa, I didn't mean to infer that I didn't understand. I was saying that the words are used to help people understand

however, i am saying that you don't dress up in women's clothes at work

Bad assumption on your part, I do at least wear 50-75% "women's" apparel every day

I'm saying that you have no bathroom issue where you work, i'm saying that you don't go to a job interview in a skirt, longish hair and makeup..and worry about whether they know, or whether they care.. you don't have your credit cards taken away from you, you don't spend $100,000 of thousands of dollars to improve your quality of life..you are less likely to lose your wife and family....you don't get turned away by doctors and most importantly you don't view yourself as someone that is basically nonexistent until you are able to change gender roles..you don't take life threatening drugs because the alternative is life threatening as well...
do you view all this as elitist?

You don't see that? You just said that you seem to be more entitled over these issues that you see as only TS...

btw a crossdressing guy has every right to do all of the above, why doesnt he? i'll answer my own question..because he's not transsexual..and has no desire to be...and if he does desire it...then i bet dollars to donuts he's on the way to some self serious self discovery

Again you don't see how you are saying that your issues are not the issues faced by others here who are not calling themselves TS?

you simply cannot say "enough with the cd and ts stuff" and get away with it.....it matters. there are CD"s and there are TS's ...that doesnt make it a competition, that doesnt mean one is better ...and i never said it was...

but you have issues that you don't see others as having. OK I am not fighting this any further. It isn't an either/or proposition. It is a collective issue for all persons who are transgender. A "CD" can lose a job, home, money, life just as easily as a "TS". Yet for some reason some TS's here seem to think they are at a higher risk.

Sorry, if I angered you. Sorry if I struck a nerve. I am not here to anger anyone in that manner. It is not the first time I have painted with a broad brush and appeared to be singling someone out. And it is not an indictment to all the transsexuals (no matter where you see yourself on that spectrum) but to the ones who seem to think that some of us are not in the same situation. It isn't just clothes. It isn't part time fun vs full time life.

With that, I am off this thread.

[Fab Karen]

..having similar experiences is not the same as being the same..the fact that we have shared similar experiences like going outside and being scared because of what we wear is one major way that we are all the same

We say SIMILAR, we don't say being CD & TS are exactly the same. There are some differences, but some ( not most ) TS's throw around the idea that there's NOTHING in common. Those same people should know there are GG's who'll say the same thing to them- not very nice or even correct, but they talk in black-&-white terms as well. And for example, there are people who feel 50-50 male & female, neither totally in one box or another.
A post-op TS woman will never know share exactly the same experiences as a GG. Should GG's shun them because of this? ( this is not directed at you, I'm not making an assumption about you shunning someone )

[Kelly DeWinter]

Why can't we all just get along ?

This old argument is a prime example of why I really try to avoid terms/lables, but sometime you just need something to put you hand on while communication.

Throughout history words have started out to mean one thing and evolved to mean something else.

Sometimes a word starts as one thing and ends up meaning something different to a different generation.

if you called someone a 'dog' 15 years ago, now teens and young men use the term as a term of comraderie as in "yo ! Dog ! "

'gay' 20 years ago ment happy and have come to describe men who are sexualy attracted to men.

(Moderators take this next one in context with the post please. and if you must ban me do it for a short time)

Sometimes a word can be offensive in one era and inoffensive in another for certain groups of people. 50 years ago whites call blacks 'nigger' as an offensive term, Today blacks use the term as one of connection in brotherhood, while whites tenderly refer to it as the "N Word".

15 years ago trangender or crossdressers were seen as a group of people either seriously mentaly ill or seriously degenerate in their morals.

In this our current generation Transgender or crossdresser, reffers to a group of people who identify as either the opposite, or abiguious of their birth gender.

15 years ago trangender or crossdressers were seen as a group of people either seriously mentaly ill or seriously degenerate in their morals.

I prefer where we are today and where we are heading, I have spoken to people who have said things like:

"My FRIEND is a crossdresser."
"My SISTER is transgendered"
"I went out with a group of people and 1 or 2 was a crossdresser and we had a WONDERFUL time."
"so and so is a LOVELY crossdresser."


So why argue on a terms that is so fluid that 3-4 years from now will most likely mean something we may all actually like ?

"Shes so HOT she's got to be a Crossdresser !"
"You really rock that transgender look"

Kelly

[JulieK1980]

If we are going to debate the defining labels, and definitions. It would be worth noting the medical communities diagnostic labels for us.

All mental health issues are defined by the DSM, which is the psychology/psychiatry version of the physician's desk reference. If someone were to attempt to transition, they would need a diagnosis from this book to begin the process. No other terms are acceptable in the medical community. However that said, this book is revised every year, and one of the current debates in psychology is whether the current terms are accurate, and we may see revisions in the next several years for all gender identity issues.

Here is a link to an overview of the DSM labels that pertain to us. (The book itself can be found at most bookstores, or your local library, just make sure its a current edition)

http://www.mental-health-today.com/gender/dsm.htm

[Karen564]

[SIZE=2]1st, I have to say that I cringe when I see these types of threads now, because it always brings out the label haters..and then it slowly gets all argumentative & ugly..[/SIZE]

[SIZE=2]I think all Amanda was trying to do was offer some basic education without getting way too technical..and probably offered this because lately, we've been seeing too many confused soles mixing up these basic terms up on this site...[/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]Only problem is, in a few months time, we'll see more newbies & be right back to square one again...[/SIZE]

[SIZE=2]As far as I'm concerned, the term Transgender (TG) fits 99.8% of the members here...[/SIZE]

[SIZE=2]Trans- = Across, to cross over ....[/SIZE]

[SIZE=2]I read here that some say they are not TG because they only dress for fun, and others say they still look like a guy when their wearing female clothes so their not TG...[/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]Sorry Charlie, but if you are repeatedly dressing up as the opposite gender you were born as, fun or not, you are still TG...and if you don't believe it, then your just fooling yourself..[/SIZE]

[SIZE=2]If you had zero TG feelings at all, then you wouldn't be dressing as the opposite gender more than one time,... period....[/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]So obviously, there must be something in that brain of yours telling you to do it & cross that gender boundary for whatever reasons & also take it serious enough to join a site such as this ...and of course this is excluding the SO's & some of the admirers that come here for their own reasons..but this isn't about them really..[/SIZE]

[SIZE=2]But as far as being TS....That's another story....lol[/SIZE]

[SIZE=2]In here, I'm a TS woman, but outside of here, I'm just a woman..[/SIZE]

[DonniDarkness]

I am relatively new here, and i have to say this topic is by far, the most interesting topic i have seen since my first thread read on this site.

This topic states, asks and demands, in a way, a level of unity from us all on how we label oursleves.

Just to amplify this topic: most people associate this topic (viewed in third party by me; as a "bi-gendered part-time-girl, full time husband")((if i may label myself here)) as people who are socially unstable....hence where the "Wild Bill" and "rocky Horror guy" jokes come from in the general interaction in the world; full of labeling, self-absorbed and close minded population with a dedicated un-faultering mindset to be just like the next person...Pant pant pant.....But i have been a people watcher and artist much longer than i have been an admitted CD, and i feel i am somewhat biased in this.....

Being a lover of the human "Social Pecking Order" that society creates, i find myself intrigued, even as a trans-whatever semi-young person, I too agree, that if there were a social TG standard that it would be easier to explain "who we are" as individuals" using the TG Spectrum as a guideline.

Somehow as man, woman, child, human, and earthlings; we have to finally decide what we call ourselves as a whole!

We all meet here, despite our differences, some are post op, pre op, mid transition, submissives, fetishists, full transitions, GG's, GM's, MTF, FTM, Role players, Fantasy artists, and the all to occasional lurker or admirer.

We really do need to decide on something that fits us all...and not out of a book wrote by stuffy psyche professors... a real answer to this as a comunity....

Sorry, i feel like im somewhat ranting, but i do have a valid point in all this

Hugs,
-Donni-

[Kaitlyn Michele]

for crying out loud..

elitist? i am entitled to shit. i am an elite as much as the ocean is an elephant..

are u saying that a ts is not more likely to lose a wife than a cd? that you want to use women's bathrooms at work? that you get turned down by doctors for life giving medicine?? cmon...get real ...i'm just talking about real life...your situation is just as important and meaningful as mine...i think its great you wear some women's clothes to work...however if you identify as a man...you have different issues than i do, you have options that i don't, you have issues that i don't...we both want to be accepted, but that doesnt mean i'm ok with you or anyone co-opting my identity.. i accept you, but you don't seem to want to accept me..

having "more" problems to deal with doesnt make you elite
if i am in debt for a million and they are taking my house, and you are in debt for a thousand and they are charging you extra interest, am i elitist because i have more problems than you? because i owe more than you?

Karen, i hear you....the commonalities are many, especially as it relates to how badly we need to do "whatever it is we do", and how badly the world tends to treat us, and often how many of us tend to have alot of anxiety and depression issues especially during our youths.....

i liked your gg comment...its a big issue..and it actually highlights my point in bright shining lights..a gg is a woman, a gm is a man...and a crossdresser is a man... I'm not a man..i'm a woman, but frankly many people don't accept this......especially if i can't look very much like a woman, ...its a pretty big problem and it has nothing whatsoever to do with crossdressing.

the similarities are many, but in my opinion there is also a huge fundamental difference...and that one difference is literally the essence of being transsexual.

[Kelly DeWinter]

Ok everyone, lets not take this personal, we are having a discussion. It can continue to be an interesting civilized discussion, or a moderator will shut it down.

[olga]

the similarities are many, but in my opinion there is also a huge fundamental difference...and that one difference is literally the essence of being transsexual.

Please, everyone. Take a deep breath, and try to step out of your body. Imagine yourself just as your soul, detached from any physical manifestation. No clothes, no apparel, no accessories, no one looking at your appearance, nobody judging your image.

Are you a man, or are you a woman?


olga

[Von]

Please, everyone. Take a deep breath, and try to step out of your body. Imagine yourself just as your soul, detached from any physical manifestation. No clothes, no apparel, no accessories, no one looking at your appearance, nobody judging your image.

Are you a man, or are you a woman?


olga

I've never heard that before. How cool. I just fell asleep though (I assume that means I'm a man). Actually (I didnt fall asleep), the closest I got was genderless. But, unable to idle my engine, the thought that crept in was that I don't think I want an answer that excludes either one.

----

Maybe it's because I'm new here - and new to serious consideration of the subject, but it's a compelling thread. My take is that everyone has made valid points that contribute to my understanding at least. I would be surprised if there was a consensus - I'm glad to hear polite debate from any viewpoint.

Personally, I continue to think that an umbrella term would benefit everyone under that umbrella as a social and political force. Nonetheless, I do understand if any group feels the need to distinguish between themselves and any other group without any implied value judgement. My argument would just be that those should perhaps be considered subgroups being distinguished between rather than groups. As I noted earlier, I'm not really sure where I fit yet. Maybe I never will be. If I decided to tell anyone (outside this community at least) that I was transgender, I would fully expect their next question to be "So...what does that mean...?" - expecting clarification.

Maybe it's logical for everyone remotely on the TG spectrum to identify as a part of that spectrum for our mutual benefit - without any need to sacrifice their more specific identity if & when they feel that distinction is important.

But don't quote me on that (smiley face that I can't seem to insert from my phone goes here).

[Sheila]

Maybe it's because I'm new here - and new to serious consideration of the subject, but it's a compelling thread.

Maybe it's logical for everyone remotely on the TG spectrum to identify as a part of that spectrum for our mutual benefit - without any need to sacrifice their more specific identity if & when they feel that distinction is important.

well you might be new here, but you sure do talk sense to me (mind the fact that I think it sense, that could discredit the point )

But don't quote me on that (smiley face that I can't seem to insert from my phone goes here)................ inserts smiley for von

ooopssssssss I just did

[Deborah Jane]

Here's to unity!

Having followed this thread through so far and noting to myself that it has gone the same way that these types of thread always do, all I can say regarding unity among is..........

We don't have a hope in hell!!!