Masculinity

[Bones]

I am finding that a lot of transmasculine people feel forced in a very small box of what masculinity is... I personally am content with my fairly "androgynous" way. I am generally "more masculine" but I do like some "finer things" that are considered feminine. It pains me to watch transmasculine people at odds with each other because of confidence issues related to masculinity. This is something common among cisgender men as well. I really like Jackson Katz' take on the issue; he describes men wearing a hypermasculine posture, called the "Tough Guise." Many men feel they must be strong, tough, invulnerable, rugged, and violent. I find anyone who is masculine-identified, including cisgender women who are "butch," struggle with aspects of the Tough Guise.

I personally value peace, civility, honesty, and diplomacy. People say this makes me a "wuss" and a "pussy" and a "queer" and others will go as far to say that this makes me "not really a man." I know in confidence that I'm a man, so these attacks do not really faze me. However, they are extremely effective on most masculine-identified people. I am not trying to claim superiority here; I am simply at peace with some of my "more feminine" traits. I wish I could show that to other people.

Some transmasculine folks say they're a "different kind of man," and end up being almost hyperfeminine. That's fine, I have no criticism of it, but I don't think they need to call themselves a "different kind of man." I really think we need to realize, just like girls can be femme and butch, that men can also be femme and butch and still just be men. I'd say I generally fall on the masculine side of things, but a few aspects of my personality are "stereotypically feminine." Most of my personality is pretty straightforward and masculine though. You will never see me be passive-aggressive; if I am "being nice," it's genuine, because if someone makes me mad, I tear them a "new one." I am very direct but I don't force this into my personality to seem more masculine. I've always been this way.

I think we need to be at peace with the parts of ourselves that might not fit the stereotype of the gender we identify with... and feel no need to amplify those aspects of ourselves that do.

[SIZE="1"]Oh and if anyone has any qualms with why I made this thread, I was prompted to write this by no one in particular.[/SIZE] This is just something I think about a lot... And I wanted an excuse to mention Jackson Katz.

[4serrus]

But I LIKE wearing the Tough Guise....

[Bones]

Fair enough. I think the Tough Guise is generally dangerous, and why men commit about 90% of American violence, are the victims of most violence, and also commit about 98% of rape. Rape is a crime of violence, not merely phallic in nature. The idea that beating each other to a blood pulp is the way to resolve issues completely baffles me, because it is a mere distraction from the original conflict.

Don't get me wrong. I like to get dirty, I like to work hard. I like to be athletic and I like to dress like a cowboy. But I believe in civility, communication, and above all, peace among my brothers. I am not saying abandon masculinity entirely. I am saying we need to draw a line. Just like how I don't think women should be door mats and completely submissive.

[Andy66]

One of the best things about this forum is that we try to mutually support eachother in being ourselves, even if we don't completely understand eachother. We could be valuable allies if we could stop the bickering.

[Bones]

I guess I don't belong here. I mean every time I pose ideas, people feel attacked. I have no problem leaving if I don't fit into an already peaceful community. I did not come here with the intention of disrupting this place.

[Kieron Andrew]

Bones, not every reply will be aimed specifically at you, but at the subject itself

[Bones]

Well maybe I would believe that if she didn't mention the forum and bickering amongst members. Which didn't have a whole lot to do with my thread. I feel like a pretty consistent disruption and I'm certainly not doing it on purpose... More people have responded to me negatively than positively. That in my mind makes me the problem.

[Andy66]

Kieron is correct, Bones. I have nothing against you personally.

[Bones]

Aww, well thank you. I'm just feeling sensitive. I really like you all and don't like to have hard feelings.

[7sisters]

Bones please do not go. We love you very much! I liked your previous posts too. I think you are important because your mind is not cluttered by stereotypes. Now that is what I love about you.

If you go, you will rob this forum of a vital point of view. I hate too much consensus. Consensus will kill any forum. Bones, you say all the things that I want to verbalise, and you do it so well. And I kind of like what you said in this post about masculinity.

You and 4serrus were just having a very lively debate that was turning out to be interesting.

For heavens sake dont talk about going, sweetheart !!

Going back to the topic of masculinity. My ex was trans inclined. I'm so sorry to say we were part of a community that revelled in the 'I'm more macho than thou' philosophy. Everyone was trying to prove they were more male than the other and it wrecked havoc with my relationship. I always felt my ex thought he had to publically look like the dominant one in our relationship, to get the approval of his peers. He ended up being very disrespectful to me.

I always think that our entire relationship had a greater purpose: he just wanted to prove his masculinity!!!

I felt totally used and bitter. Even more than a decade after we went separate ways, I refuse to have a relationship. I refuse to be bent out of shape by the chains of stereotypical masculinity.

I've sensed a lot of pressure on trans men to fit in with the 'norm'. I'm sad. If you possess 'stereotypical male' behaviour traits naturally, then fine. But if you are forcing it, then you sell your soul. There is no one masculine. Many Cisgen men have broken out of the shackles of 'stereotypical masculinity'. I think, a lot of the worst parts of stereotypical masculinity is the result of socialisation. Society puts much pressure on men.

Here is a good article to read:
http://www.gripmagazine.org/index.ph...ask=view&id=50

Boss! you are not going anywhere!

[4serrus]

I wasn't debating, I was shooting off a one-liner before heading off to work. Totally not serious. Maybe I should use smilies more. :P

Also, I don't mean I want to go around attacking people. I just like to walk around like I'm a 6 foot tall gorilla because it makes me feel awesome, and I want to get into one good bar fight before I die just for the sheer thrill of it. I have my adrenaline junkie, 'hero complex' moments. I think it might be a kind of 'blue fog', actually. I don't expect or even want anybody else to be like me. People are different and that's fine. I just happen to enjoy playing macho. It's fun for me.

Seriously man, don't run off. Especially not cuz of something I said. I try not to be serious most of the time. I HATE being serious!

[7sisters]

4serrus

[Kid Flash]

Even though I'm a girl, and that the idea of masculinity is shot generally at guys, I think I've been affected by this. I have a fairly masculine personality but at times this isn't necessarily a good thing. I can be violent and I'm not very good at expressing myself or talking about personal issues. And I've been asked to read a poem I wrote to a crowd of people and the poem's all romantic and gushy and you have no idea how nervous I am. I guess a part of myself feels I have to prove I'm strong even though I'm a girl.

Bones, I envy your confidence.

[DanielMacBride]

Bones, I like reading your posts - they are interesting and you articulate a lot of things that I personally agree with. I do think however (and this is not an attack in any way, just an observation) that you are a bit quick to assume that someone is having a go at you - and I have to say, when I have read the responses you refer to, I really don't see most of the attacks that you perceive. You're new and I guess still trying to find your place here - the people here really are very nice for the most part and one of the most supportive groups I have ever had the privilege of being involved with As you get to know everyone a bit better I'm sure you will be better able to read whether there's any intent of attacking you or not The mods here are also pretty quick to jump on personal attacks or anything like that, too - so if it does happen, you can rest assured that they will put a stop to it very smartly because that kind of thing is not tolerated here

I am glad you posted about masculinity, too - I have pondered on this very topic a few times on here (usually in my journal thread) and I totally agree with you about being locked into small boxes that define masculinity. I have posted before about how ridiculous and limiting this is and how people challenge my masculinity because I have certain traits or behaviours or hobbies or whatever else that they don't consider "masculine".

I look forward to reading more of your posts - also, I think it's important to have another different point of view here, because it has been said a few times that there seem to be a majority here of transguys who are more stereotypically masculine and less of us who have more of the stereotypically "feminine" attributes or who are more androgynous or perhaps a FtM CDer. I for one appreciate your viewpoint and see it as a valuable thread in the rich tapestry that makes up the FtM contingent on this board

[Thornton]

Masculinity is something I think a lot about too, but in a slightly different way. Instead of asking, "What is masculinity?", I find I often ask myself, "What does it take to be a man?" Depending on how you look at it, the two might be essentially the same question.

I've always defined masculinity with qualities like: confidence, strength, wisdom, determination, honesty, self-control, to name a few. But then, I always run into problems with my definition, because I can't exactly gender my qualities. I mean, if it takes confidence, strength, wisdom, determination, honesty and self-control to be a man, then what does it take to be a woman?..Same qualities, right? I feel like the more I try to be a good man, the more I end up just being a better person. Which I have no problem with, but then, I still ask myself that question to try to find a quality that is strictly "man" and not "human". I have the odd feeling such a quality might not exist.

I find myself thinking about the stereotypical "Tough Guise" definition of masculinity as well, and it's really unfortunate that it still prevails. "Strong" and "Tough" are open to interpretation, but unfortunately, a lot of guys feel it means they have to live at the gym and be able to wrestle down a bull. I interpret those characteristics as "being able to deal with the shit life throws you and keep getting back up". Invulnerability is in my opinion, undesirable and impractical, because how the hell are you supposed to develop character without losing or failing or getting hurt? And if you can't develop character, how the hell can you be rugged? Then there's violence. I think the whole idea that men are naturally more violent is crap. They're socially conditioned. In my opinion, it's more masculine to avoid violence as much as possible and only use it as a last resort, than it is to shoot first and ask questions later.

Yeah, that's what I usually think about when I think about this question.

[Fab Karen]

I think we need to be at peace with the parts of ourselves that might not fit the stereotype of the gender we identify with... and feel no need to amplify those aspects of ourselves that do.

This is true regardless of a person's gender/gender identity.

"Strong" and "Tough" are open to interpretation, but unfortunately, a lot of guys feel it means they have to live at the gym and be able to wrestle down a bull. I interpret those characteristics as "being able to deal with the shit life throws you and keep getting back up". Invulnerability is in my opinion, undesirable and impractical, because how the hell are you supposed to develop character without losing or failing or getting hurt? And if you can't develop character, how the hell can you be rugged? Then there's violence. I think the whole idea that men are naturally more violent is crap. They're socially conditioned. In my opinion, it's more masculine to avoid violence as much as possible and only use it as a last resort, than it is to shoot first and ask questions later.

Having grown up male, I think you have a good mature understanding of the subject.

[christina marie]

I hope you guys dont mind my ,but this one is not exclusive to the gentlemen here,it applies to anyone who presents as male in society. Growing up, i always knew i was different,didnt want to play with boys,do boy stuff, but it is expected of you. it is social conditioning, and you have the choice of falling in line,or being an outcast. I think that Bones touched on something that many of us MtF's here really struggle with,that (these attacks)"are extremely effective on most masculine identified people." Growing up forcibly masculine identified puts even more pressure on one to fit into the "Tough Guise", and leads to so much of the overcompensation I notice in my own past, and in the lives of others. I can really see where you guys struggle to fit the male role in a way that pleases society enough to let you "pass" (gawd i hate that term) while still being able to appease your own sense of dignity and humanity. Maybe this is the draw for some of the girls here,an escape from the "Tough Guise",a chance to emulate some of the finer qualities of humanity,(civility,honesty,diplomacy) without having to endure the ridicule.(wuss,pussy,queer) The last bit,being at peace with all the aspects of our selves, would be a state of bliss for me, but as long as society supports the whole M/F dichotomy,i personally dont see it happening. But, I can dream.