Nail, head, etc.Originally Posted by Lorileah
Nail, head, etc.
Exactly. This is a question I've raised on this forum before. If I'd started dating and my date had expressed homophobic or racist opinions, I'm afraid that would've been the end of the relationship. I would not have gone on to marry that person.
Also, after all those years of marriage and sharing a life, don't differences of opinion stimulate lively debate and opportunities to broaden horizons?
I think though that misses the point that CDs do not see themselves in that light - ie they are not gay or perverts etc. Also feelings like homophobia were widespread until very recently so hard to avoid. We are dealing with people who were married decades ago and they made their decisions under different circumstances.
I think the CD community needs to understand that there is a BC/AD split around the year 2000 when the circumstances changed in how CD relationships should be considered. The advice that is given to those whose relationships began AD is different to those BC.
This is a great discussion with lots of interesting angles. But when I sit back and look from afar I see a clash between idealism and reality. We live in a society which pushes idealistic notions down our thoughts and we worry ourselves to death wondering if we meet these ideals that we believe everyone else is chasing. What I know is that when detailed studies are done on human behavior they invariably show that real behavior is nothing like the idealism everyone spouts.
When I think about how couples get along including of course my own relationships, it seems to me to be the norm that men and women want to have a private life where they share certain things with friends that they have no desire to share with their partner. There is an understanding that some things are partner material and other things are friend material. And the longer a couple stay together the more pronounced this division becomes and the more private time is needed. Yet I suspect most people when asked to join in a discussion about relationships would wholeheartedly support the total honesty, 100% sharing viewpoint even though they have a happy relationship themselves doing the exact opposite.
Even the honesty issue shows this discrepancy between idealism and reality. Science shows people on average lie 20-40 times a day. We all do it. Our lives would be a nightmare if we did not manage the truth to avoid unnecessary pain and conflict. But most are in denial to the extent of their lying because they justify their actions to themselves as inconsequential or the right thing to do. We all consider ourselves to be fundamentally truthful people. We cannot bring ourselves to admit to we are lairs.
On this aspect of living in an enlightened world. I think that those who are progressive blind themselves to the extent many people choose not to be enlightened. Lots of folks see progressive values as a bad thing and have no interest in joining us on the other side of the fence. Neither side understands why the other thinks that way. Statistically lots of CDs must be married to partners who wish to remain unenlightened. And of course they know this.
Which leads me back to the original point of why would you marry someone who is less than perfect. Simple - everyone is imperfect and when you are in love you simply ignore the imperfections especially if you feel these imperfections will not get in the way of a happy relationship. Remember in BC times most CDs thought marriage would either cure them or they would be able to take their secret to the grave. It was their secret and their self-sacrifice to make. And they had no information or support to let them deliberate otherwise.
Really? 20-40 times a day?
Certainly there's the "Does my bum look big in this?" question to which the answer is always "No darling". But on the key issues in life, there may be compromise but lies? I have lived with a compulsive liar who did lie 20-40 times a day to everyone he met and not just about the small, inconsequential stuff. The relationship was unsustainable. Which may be the reason I can't abide lies now.
I do understand the difficulties for pre-internet individuals who thought they were the only ones and carried the shame. But, there were civil rights issues in the US which would've provoked discussion about difference, tolerance and acceptance.
Yes of course most of the lies we tell are white lies and are inconsequential. The point is none of us are as truthful as we think we are, we tell more lies than we imagine.
The other problem with lies is personal judgement. What one person considers inconsequential maybe a big deal to another. For example if someone took a penny from your purse, they might justify their action that a penny was next to worthless and so no need to own up to taking it. You might decide that even a penny is theft and is a major issue.
I would imagine that most CDs will come to think of their need as a harmless activity and so in time think of it as inconsequential. They would further justify this with the understanding that they are the victims of social prejudice and hypocrisy that as men they do not have the freedom women have to wear the clothes of the opposite sex. Hiding something because of unfair discrimination is not the same as lying about something that illustrates selfish behavior for example.
So you will end up with a divide between the person who knows the secret but progressively downplays its significance and the unknowing partner who will of course be shocked and overwhelmed once the secret is revealed. But from each perspective they can both feel that they are in the right and their partner is in the wrong.
Time is working its magic, but before I go into that I want to supply some comments regarding some of the posts about 30-year marriages, false pretenses, etc.
Yes, my wife and I have been married for over 30 years, and yes these crossdressing tendencies have been around to one extent or another my entire life. Like many others I felt they were abnormal, even perverted and should be made to go away if at all possible until just the last several years. (I only discovered cd support on the internet just over a year ago.) When I got married, I was not actively cd'ing at all and really did not think about it much. I suppose if I even did think about it I probably thought now that I would get sex on a regular basis (hold any snickering on that one) that even those impulses would vanish forever. So it would cease to be an issue and need never be discussed. The few times the urges bubbled up mildly over the decades since it was easily suppressed again, so it seemed again something that could be put away permanently. I read the comment somewhere about taking the secret to the grave, and that's exactly what I had intended to do.
Only in the last 36 months has the cd'ing come on full stage and stayed (with several purge and denial cycles) such that I finally decided it was something I had to talk about. So there really has not been a 30 year history of constant coverup, even though the latent tendency was there since childhood. So, psychologists of the bunch, have a go at that.
So do my wife and I have a marriage based on lies and deceit? Do we know each other inside and out? Actually I knew her better than I wanted to admit, and I 'gave in to the dark side' when I went with the tell her crowd. My previous postings had railed for nearly a year about how my wife could never handle knowing about my cd'ing, but somehow I convinced myself that with love and patience I could overcome that and we would have a stronger marriage after I told her the truth. Who knows, maybe we will a year from now - I guess I'll know next summer.
On with the news. Without going into details, the last two nights I've been the happy recipientof 2AM booty calls after more than a month of abstinence. Her doing, not mine. I've told her from the blowup that the ball is in her court and I'm waiting for her to make any moves. Funny thing is, the morning after the first one she apologized to me and said, "I'm sorry I used you, I just needed you for the sex." I told her that was fine, please use me any time she wanted. Her comment was that in the dark she doesn't have to think about anything like she does when she can actually see me.
Daytime physical contact is still about the same, but we're talking a bit more freely and without quite so much anguish. I know this isn't the end and there's still a lot of miles to go, but it does seem to be the beginning of a new day. And we still haven't even gotten her to her first counseling session which is still a couple of weeks away if it doesn't get moved.
Thanks to all for your support,
Georgi
we do not remember days, we remember moments. Cesar somebody said that (and I don't want to go to google forget what I was going to say...yadayada). And the moment get sweeter because we tend to suppress the bad times (look at all the good old days stories).
Georgi, time will smooth it out and apparently your spouse has decided that a little you is better than none at all. Who knows maybe she will start taking larger bites.
Your story of this not being a big thing 30 years ago rings true for most here I am sure. Almost every one has said "I got this" and they carry it around. My memory of 35 years ago was that the fashions were androgynous, I was skinny so they fit and life was wonderful. Long hair, jewelry, fitted clothing made of smooth shiny fabrics. It was CD heaven without having to be CD. That and the whole acceptance (ay least in my circle) of alternative lifestyles was high. Then came the 80's and men started wearing....uuuuugh...ugly loose unkempt wrinkled clothing (so did I ...fashion **** I am) then the fashions got worse but I still held onto the short shorts and nylon underwear and other things. My wife knew what I liked to wear so there really wasn't any official coming out. We had silently agreed while dating and early marriage. This morphed into more female specific clothing as the male copy went away and it was a smooth transition.
Point is that it isn't your wife who fought this for 30 years and I believe you even said you fought it. How would it have been if you had subtly done this instead of the big "Surprise!" letter. As you pointed out I am one to tell. Any person I will be involved with from now on will know early. And it can be a big bomb early because the investment isn't high. Hind sight and all, this may have worked better for you to ease in. There is a person here on these boards I am trying to convince that slow and steady is often the answer over plowing ahead. At least you are the icon for that right now. Would you suggest that someone in your position A) not tell at all? B) come clean in one major coup or C) take it slower?
There are hundreds of posts all over the place now and the "older" CD has more information from all our suggestions and mistakes. There isn't a one size answer (except you really need to tell as soon as possible for both sakes) but when is ASAP?
\
I certainly hope things work out for you and it seems that as of right now she is willing to slowly return. It will never be the same. I hope it will be better than before with you being able to talk about every thing.
As to another post here. Yes you need "you " time and she needs "her" time and you don't have to discuss everything especially little things that you do during "your" time. But dressing is a BIG thing. And unless you both have decided it is something you both will gloss over, you should tell IMHO especially if you are out and in public. It would be far worse for her to hear about your "hobby" from someone else. That really ramps up the "it is a lie" part.
The earth is the mother of all people and all people should have equal rights upon it.
Chief Joseph
Nez Perce
“Love isn't a state of perfect caring. It is an active noun like struggle. To love someone is to strive to accept that person exactly the way he or she is, right here and now.” - Fred Rogers,
As a number of people have said, this depends so much on the individual, no one size fits all. The 'tell her, tell her, the truth shall set you free' chant is hypnotic, and can potentially blind one to realities of human imperfection.
I personally don't see how one can 'take it slow'. You're either a cross-dresser or you're not. You can't tell your SO you're a little bit of a cross-dresser (or can you?), without potentially lying more right then and there. Kind of a catch 22.
I guess I'm no longer very well qualified to talk about the 'Not Tell' path. During the first ten minutes my wife did say 'Some things are better left untold' or something similar, so don't ask don't tell might be the best answer for some. Again, your mileage will vary.
I do think the printed letter was a bit of a bungle on my part. I should have used note cards with points in order that I wanted to express. If I had done that, I could have steered the conversation early in one direction or another, perhaps saving a major part of the revelations for another time without actually lying, thereby softening that first day's impact on my wife. But then again, that might have just stretched out the inevitable. Who knows?
As I've mentioned several times before, and several people keep insisting I'm in denial over, cd'ing is more of a fetish to me than a lifestyle. It really is a take it or leave it choice as far as I'm concerned. Time will tell if I'm kidding myself, of course, but I have no cd life going at all right now, and have no plans to restart any at all. I've quit for fairly long stretches before (including decades before this last 'breakout') when only my own wishes were involved, now there's so much more at stake.But dressing is a BIG thing. And unless you both have decided it is something you both will gloss over, you should tell IMHO especially if you are out and in public. It would be far worse for her to hear about your "hobby" from someone else. That really ramps up the "it is a lie" part.
I've made a promise to my wife that the cd'ing has stopped, that she's more important to me that the cd'ing, and she is. Now we'll hopefully get into joint therapy and talk about cd'ing and maybe her attitudes toward it will change, and maybe I'll come back to it and maybe I won't. Time will tell.
Thanks,
Georgi
Absolutely right. I don't agree with the 'drip feed' or 'baby steps' approach. Yes, let her take her time in taking on board the information but answer every question that she does have truthfully. Sorry if I'm sounding like a broken record but have you guided your wife towards this site for support? (I forget when i've said it and to whom!) Most of the GGs on this forum are supportive now, even if they weren't at the beginning. We do understand the issues that your wife is facing. Ignorance creates fear.
You can't stop the CDing any more than your wife can change the colour of her eyes. It isn't possible. It's part of who you are. You can, however, agree tol put things on hold until she's caught up with it.
For anyone suddenly finding out about CDing, it is a bit of a shock. After a while, things become less shocking and more 'normal'. You start to understand what it's all about. Then you start to ask questions. As the wife of a CDer you need to understand how this fits in with your man. It won't happen over night.
But, your point that telling isn't for everyone is true. And I'm sorry if you have any regrets about telling. You are going through a very difficult time now but you're not hiding anymore. Who knows, in six months or a year you might come back and tell us all what a great time you're having. i hope so.
So would Giorgi then be an example of the virtues of telling? He might still beg to differ on that account.
Ouch!
It is good news that this has happened. I don't believe your wife saying she just needed sex. Sex has a big emotional component and this is her way of signaling that she wants you back and for things to return to normal - normal of course being without the CDing.
Physical contact comforts people and melts their resolve, not just sex but hugs and cuddles too. The more the merrier. Sooner or later she is going to have to confront her longing for a happy loving relationship with these feelings of prejudice for men displaying femininity. Getting her to understand that this is her issue rather than an issue about you is half the battle.
The sexualization of the CDing drive is by far the most dominant behavior CDers show. You are very much a typical CDer. Go to groups like those on Yahoo and it is all about the sexual fetish. Many CDers state that they don't feel transgendered at all. I believe them. I think as young boys we develop our behavior as much as a response to our questioning our own suitability for the masculine role and duties as it is an attraction towards the female role. Meaning you don't have to want to be a girl to develop into a CDer. For some it is just a delightful temporary escape from masculinity linked to their sex drive and nothing else. If this describes you then you will have a much greater control over your dressing than others who do feel transgendered.several people keep insisting I'm in denial over, cd'ing is more of a fetish to me than a lifestyle. It really is a take it or leave it choice as far as I'm concerned.
[SIZE="3"]My heart goes out to you. I sure hope things turn out as you have wished they would, but if not, keep in mind that you will have grown and benifitted greatly from what ever happens.
Right now the ball is in her court, and she has all the power. You are the helpless victim awaiting her judgement. This situation really minimizes you as a man and further destroys your efforts at some sort of reconciliation. Find a way that you can once again exert your manhood into the situation. For some reason I'm reminded of Tim, "the tool man" Taylor and his efforts to redeem himself from some dumb thing he's done. Of course your situation is nothing as trivial as a TV sitcom, but somehow, in my head, poor Tim's efforts seem to closely resemble what you are going through.
I wish you well. I know this is really hard.[/SIZE]
Lynn Marie
Click here to see me on Flickr
Georgi, I suspected this from your very first post. Your story is not uncommon. The Cding is fairly easy to suppress when the urges aren't strong, and if the urges come only occasionally, it is somewhat easy to hide.
But from what I've read here, there comes a point where the need to dress more frequently becomes so strong that to try to keep it under wraps causes some major anxiety, especially for someone like you who has not been lying daily to your wife during the last 30 years. And if someone doesn't have a natural outlet, such as regularly scheduled business trips or a wife who is away frequently, there isn't much other choice than TO tell.
I mention this because I really do feel as if your anger at the "tell the SO" crowd was misplaced. You didn't tell your SO because you felt you were doing the ethical thing. Well, OK I'll grant that it was a part of the reason you told her, but more importantly, you needed to tell her because you just couldn't keep the lid on it any more. Look deep inside your heart and tell me this isn't true.
The reason most of us end up telling the truth about big secrets like this is to free ourselves.
I'm glad that your wife is beginning to get over her shock.
Reine
I think some of the posts here are a little to harsh to the OP. A dose of truth is alright, but some empathy would be even better.
In my opinion, society places too much emphasis is finding the 'perfect soulmate' or 'the one' that many people end up putting on a charade to lure a partner, as opposed to showing his/her true self. For this reason, over half of all marriages end in divorce. Closet CDers who don't tell their partners before marriage are guilty of this....but so are enthusiasts of all kinds. A lot of women I know are clean-freaks, who would be abhorred to date a man who is a slob. Most men know that, and will take extra effort to try to correct their sloppiness, knowing full well that that's a characteristic that women do not admire. Some will correct the habit and become neat-freaks themselves, while others go back to their norm after they are married.
Many times, a CDer getting married believes that the CDing is just a hobby that they can quit at anytime. Knowing that there is still a stigma against CDing, many may try to ween off the habit or quit altogether. Just like the slobs, some will quit for good, while some will revert back to their ways.
Now is this really being 'dishonest'? Putting on a front is part of the dating game, and has unfortunately become part of the marriage game. Marriages from dating sites are more successful than the norm. Why is this? Because the dating sites encourage its users to eliminate the 'fronts', and be honest about themselves. They match people up with things they have in common, which is the real predictor of a successful relationship, as opposed to who 'catches your eye'.
Those who don't outright tell their partners of their CDing habit aren't exactly lying, but instead not being upfront about a personal issue. Society is just beginning to accept alternative lifestyles, but even today there is still a general stigma, with a loud voice against these lifestyles. Many are in the closet to their parents, siblings and best friends. Does this mean that they hate all these people they care about? Not at all. It means many feel that people just don't understand, and that it's better to create a don't ask don't tell policy, than to air everything in the open, and become ostracized on one's community.
In reality, nobody is 'perfect'. Nobody completely fits the mold of the perfect mate. Everybody has their quirks, flaws, or whatever you may call them. Yes, a GG may discover after 15 years of marriage that he gains pleasure from dressing up like a woman, and you didn't know about it...is that really the worst possible secret a man can be hiding? You be the judge. Sorry for the rant, it's passed midnight, so forgive me if I come off incoherent
With Love,
Michelle
I totally get the BC/AD time frame being in a somewhat similar but also different situation, and can only wish you the best as time goes on. About one year later we are still working through this, married almost 30 years.
I don't think this is about lying at all. It's about suffering. If you're willing to suffer for the rest of your life to maintain a relationship, that's your business. Whether that's a smart move is up for debate.
This why I really really fear telling my wife about my fem side. I know she has her suspisions, but possibly your case is an example of why telling the SO may not always be a good idea. Or is it? Girls, what do you think??
We all make mistakes in our lives. Sometimes what feels like failure can lead us to success. I as one of the tell your spouse crowd who does understand how your judgment can be clouded at a critical time. Telling your spouse is never easy and unfortunately we don't have an "Easy" button or one of those trix extra moments. I told my wife and the conversation limited itself and it took some time before she learned all of it. I told her for a different reason than most. My marriage was on crutches and I hoped it would start a dialogue which could lead to mending a broken marriage. All that I suceeded in doing was hastening the end.
I would rather tell everything to the spouse and dealt with the consequences than continue living a lie. A lie is a lie. I think every marriage should be founded in trust and honesty and anything that violates either of those 2 things is a problem. You can't turn off cd'ing, but lets hope you will be the first. But I personally believe once a cd'er always a cd'er. You just may not crossdress very often but it is a part of you. To deny that part is impossible. You can put it on the shelf if you want but you must at least accept yourself to understand who you are and find ways of dealing with it.
Michelle
I am firmly in the camp that the decision to tell or not to tell depends on your own situation. There isn't a one size fits all answer to this. I never told my 2nd wife and she never found out. I told my first wife early but our relationship was doomed for other reasons and ended after ten yaers. My current wife found out five years ago and asked me to promise to either give up dressing or her. I chose trying to give up dressing.
This decision made me a worse person. More irriatable, less engaged in family activities, short fused, depressed, etc. I kew my wife and I were headed for divorce regardless of telling her I couldn't stay the course with not dressing. The decision was more that if the marriage was going to end, it would end on my terms and not hers. The conversation was not pleasant but the time since telling her has gone well. She doesn't want anything to do with my dressing including hearing about it. She doesn't want to lose her husband which is a good sign but she also doesn't feel she is being true to herself if she acepts this part of her husband. She is now as torn as I have been most of my life.
Your situation (OP) is unique like everyone else's situation. IMO, anyone else looking to this string for advice on whether to tell or not to tell should consider many other factors before acting on information here. How much do you love your SO? How long have you been together? Has there ever been an indication the relationship would end for this or any other reason? Are you trying to preserve your relationship or add the final straw to something already on its way out? There are so many other things to consider.
We are all individuals with similar stories and experiences. That is the extent of it, just similar. There isn't one other person on this forum that has had an identical life experience to anyone else. what is best for you depends on you. Using the advice here as your sole source of information before acting would do you and your SO a huge disservice.
I have gained so much perspective from this forum over the past couple months. I feel I am a better person becasue of it. I have also developed my own opinions about the people who post on this site. There are plenty of people who are so interested in making people feel good about themselves and wanting to support them and give them guidance and share valueable insights. These people have been a godsend for me and I am sure many others. There are also people on this forum who have had a very rough life and IMO try to bring other people into their own misery. It might make them feel better about themselves to know others are just as miserable. I am not a therapist so that is only my opinion.
Knowing that these two opposing perspectives are out there, you should take the information you read with a grain of salt, look at how it would play out in your own life and then decide which path is best for you. Being accepted for who we are is such an important aspect of this site. Being manipulated into doing something out of character will be something you regret for a long time.
...I'm just sayin' is all...and now I turn the soap box over to someone else - who's next?
so sorry to hear it went that bad .mine said the same thing we have been together for 38 years but i didnt give up my dressing it never leaves us it stays with us till i die its a part of me i cant quit ,it would be like trying to make a river run backwards you cant .i know you mean every word about your love for her .but the need to dress will come back i have gone thru this all my life .i have thrown out so many clothes in my 52 years still i get more .i know what its like to live with someone who cant stand you its hard .i bet she told you that your one of those .mine thought i was gay or i wanted to have a sex change .i love to feel my feminine side .but i also know its not all of me but its important to my happiness .i have been trying to makeup for me bringing this into her world but i now realize im a good person no matter what im wearing .and i cant change how she feels about it even if she has been with women before me .there are times i just hate her and times i love her it took me years to work thru this and accept that im a crossdresser now im trying to bring my self to love me hang in there go slow hope it gets better for you .huggs krissy
You can tell your S/O anything you want....... so long as its the truth. Not a white lie. Not an ommision. Just the plain and simple truth. This obviously doesn't work as a one size fits all method of living with an S/O, but it HAS worked quite well for me these past 8 years.
Oh... and it works best if you tell her before you start out on the dating process
You'd be surprised just how far the honesty can go.
*hugs*
Zarabeth
(Formerly known everywhere as Lady Zarabeth
I could not forsee the consequences of telling my wife of my cd'ing and considering where we seem to be heading, maybe I should have not told, because now she's outed me to family and this will quickly become common knowledge at work and in the general area. This also poses problems if I become a big distraction on the job I may lose my job, I know I'll be able to find other employment, but the health ins. I carry or may not have is huge. My wife has numerous health issues, and with out health insurance has the potential to be devastating. I certainly regret not telling my wife years ago, even before marriage, unfortunately in 1980 there wasn't anything like this available to me, or at least I did not know how to access what was out there. But I made my choice and I'll deal with the consequences, but I still feel a marriage can not be based on lies, honesty is the best policy. So its best to be honest with your spouse.
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