We've got a long way to go, baby (or NO, you can't try that on)

[Sara Jessica]

...picking up on my earlier reply, I don't want to leave out those who were supportive of my POV, thanks so much to each of you as well .

No, this wasn't an Oscar acceptance speech, it's just acknowledging how much I value all of the responses on both sides of the issue.

Now back to our regular programming...

Thanks for not getting offended, Sara.

I see your logic, but still respectfully disagree here.

I propose our own little beer summit (or wine summit!) next time you come up to LA. I can usually get out most afternoons or evenings.

Regards,

Diane

Hmmm, I'm pretty sure I'm gonna be up your way on Monday...send me a PM if you're available. I've become quite the fan of PF Chang's awesome happy hour!!!

...but in the meantime, going back to what you said earlier...

Remember, the public has been conditioned for umpteen years that we are psychos and sickos, and the daytime shows often reinforce that fact.

That's actually an awesome point that some others have also alluded to. It's part of the reason I prefer not to use fitting rooms in guy mode, and why under no circumstance would you ever find me using a fitting room in guy mode in a lingere store (an entirely different conversation that played out sometime a while back). But again, I am not here to suggest that we don't do these things, peeps will go the way they go despite the best intended advice. It's just that for me, I do all I can to avoid the creepy factor, to try not to perpetuate that stereotype that we are sickos. No matter how I look in guy mode, how I might have zero nervousnes to enhance the creepy factor, the fact of the matter remains, I'm a guy looking to try on women's clothing in fitting rooms designated for women. Some natal women are going to find that offensive/creepy/whatever no matter what.

I can see both sides of the coin.

On one side, the SA had a need and a desire to protect her clientele - whether partitioned or not, a man in the dressing room can be an emotional experience for a woman. It's not what would happen, but what could happen.

On the other hand, people must learn to disassociate us from the common mythos of a "molesting pervert." If it takes some lost sales to get it through their heads, then so be it. Sara, I know that there are many boutiques where you are not only welcome, but treasured. Shop there.

Kathi

I see both sides of the coin as well Kathi which is why I took zero offense at the critical points which were made. It's a side of the whole thing that I didn't really forsee.

BTW, I meant to "jinx" you earlier but my lunch bell had already rung by the time I was finished with my reply.

...And yet, other "minorities" do get consideration for their special needs in such instances - witness the almost universal legal requirement to provide designated parking spots, ramp access to public buildings, and specially outfitted washrooms for handicapped individuals...

Such a thoughtful reply Leslie which reminded me of a previous misconception I had. A while back, I told a gg friend that I often felt like I was part of the last minority group where laughter and ridicule is not only still commonplace but also somehow socially acceptable. She then knocked me down a few pegs by pointing out that her boss is a dwarf, try that one for the public ridicule factor. As you could imagine, I stood corrected.

I wouldn't have let you use the dressing room either. I think you are being silly and doing our community no favors!

I agree with the others, please explain yourself. There's no swooping in here to lay down a line like this without saying something, hopefully meaningful, to back yourself up.

[sandra-leigh]

Some recent examples of what I've been faced with:

• Thursday, I visited a boutique leased out of a major department store; picked out an expensive dress I wanted to try on. The SA told me I would have to wait until the women in the dressing rooms were finished. Tap, tap, fidget, tap, fidget. They made me wait at least 20 minutes before letting me go in, and I think my linen closet is bigger than the room I was eventually directed to. Why I put up with it, I'm sure I don't know.
  
• A short time later and 20 feet away at a different leased boutique, the SA called through the fitting room door to find out how the sizes were. When I told her that the dress made me bulge at places I didn't want to bulge, and didn't bulge at places that I did want to bulge, the SA paused for a second, and said, "Oh. Would you like to try on a different style then?" Yeah, sure, just pick one out at random and hand it in to me, would ya?
  
• About 10 days ago, at a (completely different) boutique, I had some clothes picked out and was ready to try things on. An older mother and daughter were in the fitting rooms trying something on. Now, I know from past experience that the store has half a dozen fitting cubicles, but the store owner told me "You can take those in when they are finished in there" -- implicitly telling me that because I was a guy, I should wait until the real women were out of the change area. Now, what kind of person would do that?

What we gotta do for our dressing sometimes!



Okay, okay, okay, alright then:

• The boutique that made me wait so long only had two small change cubicles, and the women ahead of me spent a long time deciding what they wanted. There wasn't any available space earlier, and I was shown in while the women were still paying. The SA had no problem dealing with me. The only real mistake she made was that when I asked about whether the back seemed tight, she said it all looked fine; when I said it was pulling a bit, she went and checked for the next size up, picking the correct size for me out of her memory; when I showed her the bigger size on, she mentioned that the smaller size was a bit tight in the bust. The back actually did look fine on the smaller size: it just pulled a bit uncomfortably (but probably wearable.) I kinda liked the emphasis the smaller size gave the bust. So the mistake was to be willing to sell me the smaller dress without pointing out the bust issue immediately, going for the likely sale instead of risking the possibility of losing the sale by suggesting a size that they might not have happened to had in stock.
  
• The second boutique had huge change rooms, and as soon as I got to within 15 feet of SA while holding some items, she immediately asked if I would like to try them on, and had no issues in showing some women into the change area after I was already in (she wasn't really supposed to do that, as they wanted to try clothes from outside her jurisdiction, but the closest open change room was quite a distance away.) Yes, she did make the semi-lame suggestion about trying on some other style of dress, but when I got out and was asking her about jeans, she knew her stock and knew what was likely to be forthcoming.
  
• The boutique that asked me to wait until the women were out of the changing area even though there were lots of free cubicles: the mother was in her 80's and had mobility difficulties, and the daughter wasn't young either. I sat down to wait when I saw them heading towards the changing area; the owner didn't make the comment until I had already been voluntarily been waiting several minutes. I didn't voluntarily sit down to wait "out of deference to the delicate sensibilities of female customers": I sat down to wait because I have some experience with elderly people with mobility difficulties and I figured that chances were fair that they would end up with their cubicle door open. As to what kind of person the owner is: the owner had me take my purchases that day without paying for them because she didn't know at the time what "friends and regular customers" discount level I should be given -- which reminds me that I need to go in and pay.

[lingerieLiz]

This week I was at two of a national department stores' locations. At one there was no signs about who could enter and most of the time no SA to count what was going in or out.

At the other there was a sign "No gentlemen ... to enter. I will say the men's dressing room had a sign that said "No women ... to enter". Both stores are being managed by the same manager, go figure.

Before we condemn the SA some stores have put it in not to stop CD'ers from trying on clothes, but to stop peeping and other perverted acts. A friend who manages a store has told me about several incidents he has had. He doesn't have a problem with the CD/TG community but can't tell us from the bad guys.

I've purchased and tried on clothes and lingerie all over the country and found that every store has different policies even with chains. Even within departments in chains. Sometimes it is the SA who takes it upon herself to set policy. I have found that once the SA's know you, many will bend the rules even in the lingerie department. I've tried on lingerie at a major store with a fitting room full of women in other cubicles knowing I was there and none seemed to care. I've also seen women evacuate the area as I was looking at bras.

There is just no easy answer.

[lingerieLiz]

...It's part of the reason I prefer not to use fitting rooms in guy mode, and why under no circumstance would you ever find me using a fitting room in guy mode in a lingere store (an entirely different conversation that played out sometime a while back). But again, I am not here to suggest that we don't do these things, peeps will go the way they go despite the best intended advice. It's just that for me, I do all I can to avoid the creepy factor, to try not to perpetuate that stereotype that we are sickos. No matter how I look in guy mode, how I might have zero nervousnes to enhance the creepy factor, the fact of the matter remains, I'm a guy looking to try on women's clothing in fitting rooms designated for women. Some natal women are going to find that offensive/creepy/whatever no matter what.

Sara, are you suggesting that walking into a lingerie department or store in guy mode and being honest that the lingerie is for you and yes it would help to try it on to be sure it fits is more "peeps" than getting dressed and going to the same department or store? I have a news flash for you, the "peeps" show up in all the departments. From my experience of working in a major store and friends in the business today perverts show up in every department.

[Aaron Zwidling]

Sara
I can see both sides of the argument on this issue as well, but won't go into specifics. Others have already done a fine job of defending both sides of the argument. What I don't get is why you stayed in the store. Reading through your letter it sounds like you had what you described as a cold response, this response causing you to decide to not buy anything from the store (which is perfectly fine and a view I subsribe to). According to your letter though you spent more time in the store, continued to browse through their stock, showed the SA your pictures etc. So on the one hand you felt unwelcome in the store, but on the other hand didn't leave immediately. Presumably by continuing to browse through the store you were giving the SA the impression you might buy after all, but from your own words you had no intention of buying. Why the disconnect?

[Sara Jessica]

Some recent examples of what I've been faced with...

Excellent examples Sandra, including the addition of later details which changes the entire context of what you originally described.

Before we condemn the SA some stores have put it in not to stop CD'ers from trying on clothes, but to stop peeping and other perverted acts. A friend who manages a store has told me about several incidents he has had. He doesn't have a problem with the CD/TG community but can't tell us from the bad guys.

Very outstanding example of why this whole thing is likely to continue to be an uphill battle.

Sara, are you suggesting that walking into a lingerie department or store in guy mode and being honest that the lingerie is for you and yes it would help to try it on to be sure it fits is more "peeps" than getting dressed and going to the same department or store? I have a news flash for you, the "peeps" show up in all the departments. From my experience of working in a major store and friends in the business today perverts show up in every department.

Hold on, disconnect here. "Peeps" is a word I use sometimes for "people" (ok, and sometimes peep toe heels). Bad choice of words on my part in this discussion.

Sara
I can see both sides of the argument on this issue as well, but won't go into specifics. Others have already done a fine job of defending both sides of the argument. What I don't get is why you stayed in the store. Reading through your letter it sounds like you had what you described as a cold response, this response causing you to decide to not buy anything from the store (which is perfectly fine and a view I subsribe to). According to your letter though you spent more time in the store, continued to browse through their stock, showed the SA your pictures etc. So on the one hand you felt unwelcome in the store, but on the other hand didn't leave immediately. Presumably by continuing to browse through the store you were giving the SA the impression you might buy after all, but from your own words you had no intention of buying. Why the disconnect?

Good point Aaron. Let's see if more detail helps to clarify what took place.

The store from what I remember was laid out with at least a dozen circular racks that seemed to be organized haphazardly by color, a bit by style. The walls were also lined with merchandise. There wasn't a lot of rhyme or reason to what they stocked. Everything was new and had tags but interestingly, a lot of the tags were recognizable as being from places such as Macy's and Bloomingdales.

So when I first walked in, I perused about four racks until I spied the red outfit on a dress rack which was along one of the walls in the store. The time after the comment and when I departed the store couldn't have been more than 4 or 5 minutes. Put yourself in such a situation, my first impression was "wow, I didn't expect that response" so being taken aback as I was, it took me a moment to process what had happened. In other words, I didn't just throw my hands up and storm out in a tizzy. So I put the red outfit back and briefly glossed over another rack or two at the most which is when I thought of showing her the pictures.

There is just no easy answer.

Couldn't be more true.

[VeronicaMoonlit]

I replied that I'm typically a size 8 in this kind of style

Skinny B****! I hate you! Size 8! I'm going to cry over a pint of Haagen-Dazs :-)

and asked if it would be OK if I tried this on. Her reply was immediate and emphatic as if rehersed despite the uneasy look on her face...

"Oh no, we don't let men in the dressing rooms".

That would have got an immediate "What did you say?" from me.

My reply? "That's fine, I just won't buy it." to which SA kept saying "I'm sure it would fit you" etc. as I put it back on the rack.

I would have been a touch more pro-active, I would have pulled out the debit card/cash and said, using my "dealing with the clueless voice": "You know, this is/represents the green pieces of paper called money. You want to separate me from my money and nowadays, getting as much of my money as you can is something you want to do. However, if I can't try things on, you won't get my green pieces of paper. You see, I got tired of the buy, take home, try on and return routine. It's annoying and it costs me more money and time that way. If I try something on, find that it fits and is flattering, you are much more likely to get my green pieces of paper. Then I have my "pretty" and you get my pretty green pieces of paper and we both are happy."

I had my camera in my pocket so I took it out and showed her two pictures from my chip.

Referring to flash digital storage media as "chips" makes baby geeks cry. :-)

The look on her face was almost as if she saw a ghost, probably better described as a sudden moment of clarity. "OMG, look at you, so feminine" she said, among other things. By this time the customer in the store had left and the SA invited me to try on the red outfit, over and over again to the point where she was practially begging.

When confronted with the reality of a trans-fashionista, she realized that she had blown it. Her way of making amends

My response? Sorry, not a chance. I explained nicely & politely that I shop where I am made to feel welcome and her initial response revealed her true colours. I was very clear that she lost a sale.

Yep. That was the right thing to do, that way the next time a transperson in male mode shops there she might actually think that they could be a fashionista as well, and perhaps treat them better.

I wouldn't have let you use the dressing room either. I think you are being silly and doing our community no favors!

I think you should explain your reasoning.

Before we condemn the SA some stores have put it in not to stop CD'ers from trying on clothes, but to stop peeping and other perverted acts. A friend who manages a store has told me about several incidents he has had. He doesn't have a problem with the CD/TG community but can't tell us from the bad guys.

Piffle! The kind of guys who would peep are the kind of guys who tend to be misogynists/chauvinists and would consider being thought of as a CD/TG or dressing in women's clothes demeaning, since they don't consider women their equals. They'd never take clothes to the counter and ask for a dressing room. Much more likely they'd just try to sneak in. Easy to tell them from us, even without the fact that many CD's who would wish to try things on in public have done "mini-body-mods" like having longer hair, polished nails, tweezed eyebrows, pierced ears, etc, or might be wearing some women's clothing in guy mode.

Veronica

[Alice Torn]

[SIZE="3"]I can understand your initial frustration, but, after some education, and communication, I[it sounds like she changed her view. Maybe you can return, sometime, she'll remember you, show her a few more photos, ask again, and she will let you try on again. I agree with Michelle.[/SIZE]

[Kerrie Sifton]

As she did try to accomodate you after realizing that you might look fabulous in the outfit, maybe a revisit to the site might make her more feel that her efforts were acceptable. And it might be marvelous for you to have that retro red outfit with the flowing pants. I have been looking for one too, but alas I am not an 8....

[Olivia2]

Piffle! The kind of guys who would peep are the kind of guys who tend to be misogynists/chauvinists and would consider being thought of as a CD/TG or dressing in women's clothes demeaning, since they don't consider women their equals. They'd never take clothes to the counter and ask for a dressing room. Much more likely they'd just try to sneak in.

Veronica, careful here. You are at risk of stereotyping a group of people in the same way many of us have been stereotyped. Having facilitated some groups with people who've admitted to the above kind of behavior, they come in many stripes and colors and have diverse styles and personalities.

[Sara Jessica]

(everything Veronica said)

You absolutely crack me up Veronica. It was so hard reading this the first time the other day when I was just waiting for "what are you laughing at" from across the room!!!

As she did try to accomodate you after realizing that you might look fabulous in the outfit, maybe a revisit to the site might make her more feel that her efforts were acceptable. And it might be marvelous for you to have that retro red outfit with the flowing pants. I have been looking for one too, but alas I am not an 8....

They did have a 12 as well...but wait, you're in Canada. Quite a trip for one outfit .

Veronica, careful here. You are at risk of stereotyping a group of people in the same way many of us have been stereotyped. Having facilitated some groups with people who've admitted to the above kind of behavior, they come in many stripes and colors and have diverse styles and personalities.

Not sure what to make of this. Yes, stereotyping isn't always the best thing to do but when we're talking about poor behavior that can actually harm others, I'm not seeing too much problem painting it with a broad brush.

[Jenny Doolittle]

It makes me wonder how she would have accepted you dressed(or other girls that may not be as passable as yourself), or for that matter, what about a genetic woman that may not be a fashion plate.

I applaud you for trying to teach the S/A that we all are people and have feelings.

[noeleena]

Hi,
How many in this discussion are women. not many i m thinking .
& how many would go up to the sales lady & say hi . im a crossdresser would you mind if i tryed on some clothes . not many i bet.


Your talking about being accepted then why not be open in the first place . are the sale ladys going to be bothered . most , no.

& as some have said men have been in the stores only for one thing . & thats not what i would wont ....& why are they there , not buying clothes . thats for sure.

when i take our granddaughter Dejarn in to the shops i dont expect men to be looking at me or Dejarn they should not be there .

Im a woman in a womans shop & some times we dont wont or need men around ,

... a point thats being over looked..... remember you are men not women so please respect that miner detail ,you wont respect then give it , it goes both ways,

When i ask for help i expect an other women to pop her head around the corner & say that looks good or not standing there with nothing on trying bras or what ever. i had a sales lady help me try on some bras because i could not lift my arms up no probs. id just had my surgery,


If you come in , as dressed as female or / women then act like one & maybe you can be accepted in to our space just dont flunt it . as said lookers with roving eyes. no thanks,

Iv seen some dressers & why wont they be accepted . i think you know why. because theres nothing about them that says female, & that does not bode well for others who are trying to be female & live as female.

The need is to be a little more in tune with women in the real world .
I dont know about those of you here if you do this .

im well known in all the shops i go in to & has been like that for years. difference is i get to know people may be i come from a different set of understanding people & in how i engage with people how i deal with people ,
I never had problems when i was shoping for Jos & later for my self because i made the point of getting to know the sales ladys . or others as was needed.

One of the biggest problems the many men have is not being sensitive
to how women think & feel hence the reason of much that has been talked about here, you know barge in do what you wont to do & no care for any one else so long as youv got what you wont. & then leave the mess behind .
Iv seen this enough times now & sad to say from some dressers. & its no wonder women are not accepting .

...noeleena...

[Ellen Ross]

First, I too agree with Sara. I think you handled the situation perfectly. When this has happened to me I just left without any explaination. I will take this and use it as an example the next time it happens.

Sara,

... I can't begin to count the number of times when I have been in a men's fitting room trying on men's clothes (yeah, harsh reality dictates that I also have to buy guy clothes from time to time ) and have seen women (especially teen-aged girls) walk in nonchalantly as if they owned the place to try on men's' jeans or the like after having browsed for their selections in that section. And as we all know, GG's love their "menswear", and sometimes skip the watered-down feminized versions and just go for the real deal. Of course, they are not crossdressers in society's eyes when they do that whereas we are, ...

And, Leslie, you are so right on. While shopping at a large department store I ask the SA for a room to try on a pile of items in my hnds. After waiting until she could figure out how to do that from her manager who was not arround, she asked if I wouldn't mind using the men's dressing room on the second floor. I knew she really did want to help me and had put in some effort, so I took the trip upstairs. As I walked in there were more women then men. And a group of 5 or so women commented that I was in the wrong place to try on clothes, and suggested I go to the gay section. It was all I could do to continue past them and get to a room to hide. That was a year ago. Next time, thanks to this site, I will handle it differently.

Ellen

[Olivia2]

Not sure what to make of this. Yes, stereotyping isn't always the best thing to do but when we're talking about poor behavior that can actually harm others, I'm not seeing too much problem painting it with a broad brush.

[SIZE="3"][SIZE="2"]Sara,

I should have used the word generalizing rather than stereotyping and it was my perception that a broad brush was not used in Veronica's statement but rather a narrow one. I don't want to veer away from the real point of the this thread but simply was trying to point out that "perverts" and "peepers" don't always show obvious signs and may try to carry out their activities in many ways. Therefore, clothing stores, etc. may err on the side of caution to protect their clients. In my opinion, from what you described and given the size of the store, they shouldn't have perceived you as a threat, even before you showed them the pictures. Unfortunately, people make judgments and take action based on generalization perpetuated by our culture.

Olivia
[/SIZE]
[/SIZE]

[kellycan27]

Women seem to have a pronounced sense of entitlement when it comes to such things, and I have begun to adopt the same attitude regarding my right to try on women's' clothes before I buy - whether en femme, or in drab. And don't even get me started on those women who think nothing of barging into the men's room when the line-ups for the women's' washrooms become too long for their liking...

Who's fault do you suppose that is? Men. That's who! Men put wemon on a pedestal, and cater to the so called "weaker sex", and now you want to get pissed off because wemon use it to their advantage? Your tighty whities are showing!

[AllieSF]

Noelena, I have to disagree with you regarding that men should not be in a woman's store. Why not? I have bought womens and girls clothes for my wife, daughter and girlfriends for too many years to think about (I am hat old!) and have every right to be in that store looking around. Just because a man is in a woman's store or section of a larger store does not mean he in any way that he is there to molest a woman nor peak in changing room. That type of negative activity is actually it is very rare when compared to the total number of people, men included who go into the stores. He could be there looking for a gift for someone or on an errand for his SO. Sara Jessica and the rest of us MtF dressers have every right to be in that same type of store to look around and maybe purchase something that we like for ourselves. We do not need to go in dressed as a woman either. I do understand that a smaller store may want to accommodate a male to try on woman's clothes by waiting until there are less woman in the changing area. However, even that "allowance" to their apprehensions can be argued as unnecessary.

[lingerieLiz]

Well said AllieSF. I'm not going to give a lecture on why women can wear men's clothing, but it is perfectly accepted for women to go into the mens department and buy/try anything in there. Why should it be any different for men?

FtM crossdressers are accepted without much to do about it. One of the stores that I shop in the woman manager wears only men's clothing, has a man's hair cut, glases, shoes etc. Yet if a MtF CD would not be allowed to work there.

[lingerieLiz]

As for perverts or people who do things that are not acceptable in public. I misunderstood what Sara meant by peeps. They are not just in the women's section. While they are few compared to the number of shoppers, it can be unsettling for SAs faced with the incident. I've heard reports from every department in stores, from lingerie to hardware. I guess it is like emergency rooms, CDs are the least of the issues they deal with.

When I shop I'm usually in drab. I may be wearing women's clothes, slacks and blouse, but I look like a guy. I'm real easy going and talk to everyone. I'm also very comfortable with who and what I am. I don't make a big deal of what I'm there for, but have no problem telling the clerks. Most of them are more than happy to wait on me and try to be accommodating. Once in a while I will notice a woman who is not comfortable with me there, but the vast majority could care less. Their husband or boyfriend is usually more uncomfortable. They will stare, but never say anything.

[Leslie Langford]

Who's fault do you suppose that is? Men. That's who! Men put wemon on a pedestal, and cater to the so called "weaker sex", and now you want to get pissed off because wemon use it to their advantage? Your tighty whities are showing!

My "tighty whities" are just fine, thank you very much, and while I appreciate your concern about them, they are hardly tied up in a knot over this.

Far from being "pissed" over this behavior by GG's, I'm adopting a 'tude that what's good for the goose is good for the gander. So if GG's feel entitled to enter my world when it comes to using men's fitting rooms, I now use women's fitting rooms with the same sense of entitlement and "What'choo talkin' 'bout (lookin' at), Willis" attitude popularized by Gary Coleman on the old "Diff'rent Strokes" television show.

Capice?

[kellycan27]

So I am a business owner, and I am faced with the the possibility of alienating my female clientele by allowing men into their dressing room, or I can alienate the the odd cder who happens to drop by my business once every so often? Sorry, men aren't allowed in the lady's dressing rooms.

[Danni Bear]

Kelly, I have to agree with you in regards to small shop or botiques that don't have space . But for large chains that have the room and more private dressing area then yes. I won't even let my husband who is post-op ts in dressing rooms with me.Why tempt him to look around?

Danni

[sandra-leigh]

So I am a business owner, and I am faced with the the possibility of alienating my female clientele by allowing men into their dressing room, or I can alienate the the odd cder who happens to drop by my business once every so often? Sorry, men aren't allowed in the lady's dressing rooms.

In Canada at least, that's the wrong answer. If the dressing rooms are not a common area where women would routinely expect the possibility of seeing each other undressed, then under the Canada Charter of Rights and Freedoms, you would have to be able to establish that there was a substantial reason why they could not be mixed, and you would have to apply for a specific exemption for that purpose. Potential discomfort of the female clients would not be an accepted reason for a waiver: there is no Right to not be uncomfortable. In the case of individual change rooms that provide privacy and which do not have any substantial specialized fitting equipment, it would be fairly unlikely that a Canadian court would grant an exemption.


Re-read your argument and substitute "white" for "female" and "black" for "cd'er". If the result is obviously socially unacceptable under current understandings of civil rights, then it would very likely be unacceptable under Canadian law.

[kellycan27]

My "tighty whities" are just fine, thank you very much, and while I appreciate your concern about them, they are hardly tied up in a knot over this.

Far from being "pissed" over this behavior by GG's, I'm adopting a 'tude that what's good for the goose is good for the gander. So if GG's feel entitled to enter my world when it comes to using men's fitting rooms, I now use women's fitting rooms with the same sense of entitlement and "What'choo talkin' 'bout (lookin' at), Willis" attitude popularized by Gary Coleman on the old "Diff'rent Strokes" television show.

Capice?

Am I safe to assume that your sense of what's good for the goose is good for the gander applies to using the lady's room in the same fashion when in drab?

[Danni Bear]

Kelly,
the gander doesn't know whats good for him. We have to tell him.

Danni