The Dressing Heirarchy

[AKAMichelle]

Last night I went to Fort Collins to a dance with a dear friend of mine. As we were walking through the college students, Kayla made an odd statement which got me thinking. She said that she was being read because she was with a cd'er. She was ok with this, but being TS she is always afraid of somebody attacking her because of it. She is a girl in my book. I couldn't see a guy anywhere when we first met 2 years ago. Last night I saw so many changes in her that I couldn't believe it. She was one really cute blond chick. But her statement made me a little sad because I couldn't pass anywhere near her level. So yes I caused her to be noticed more because she was there with me.

When we go out, do we somehow have a judgement process of other cd'ers to determine their passability. Depending upon that evaluation do we decide if we ever go out with them again? Is that why we go to only TG friendly places because we would stick out like a sore thumb in a regular establishment?

I have avoided going out again with other cd'ers if they wore too skimpy of clothes and didn't really try to hide the fact that they were a cd'er. I attract enough attention but I don't want to be out with someone who attracts attention at 1000 yards when I only do 100 yards.

[Persephone]

It might be a little tricky to figure out in the situation you described!

In general, I've always believed that being with one or more GG's improves your passability. The only exception might be a height issue if all of the GG's are far shorter than you are, so it works best if you hang with GG's around your height

My informal formula that says that passing deteriorates by the square of the number of CD's. So 2 CD's together will be 4 times as likely to be read, 3 together will be 9 times as likely, etc.

From what you describe, your friend should effectively image as a GG, but she says the mix of just the two of you isn't perfect. O.K., what if you add two (or more) GG's to your group?

Hugs,
Persephone.

[AKAMichelle]

I don't think the GG would help like loosing 50 pounds would. I am work in progress and I am ok with that. My friend is fine being with me but we didn't walk side by side through the maze of college students. Part of that was because only one person could walk through at a time.

[kellycan27]

It's not just about being with a non-passable cder Michelle. It's a hard life and if and when you are finally able to transend being a transsexual and make your way in the mainstream undetected, reminders of past experiences don't bode very well. it's like....been there have the t-shirt.
I don't do TG or LBGT venues simply because there isn't anything there for me, and again they only serve as reminders of unpleasant memories.
Some people say that I should not "forget" where I came from, but to be perfectly honest...that is exactly what I want to do. Yes we are all in this thing together as we sit here and chat, but once the computer is turned off, it's just me. I am not a transsexual, I am a woman. It's nothing personal. Even if you get read and I don't when we are together.. your being read still reminds me of...."me". I have a life and I have plans and dreams. Being a transsexual doesn't fit into any of that.

Kel

[Kate Simmons]

I am very well aware of the so called "heirarchy" in the TG world Michelle. It was evident and in play when I was a member of my former TG Org. Problem is, it only really exists in the minds of some people.The quicker we all realize that, the better.

[charlie]

I am very well aware of the so called "heirarchy" in the TG world Michelle. It was evident and in play when I was a member of my former TG Org. Problem is, it only really exists in the minds of some people.The quicker we all realize that, the better.

What I am afraid of Denise and Michelle, is that the problem exists in the minds of the general public. I have a friend that really looks like a guy in a dress. On top of that she will only wear short, short dresses and flamboyant makeup. If I go out with her I have a good time with her, but must get the "look at the two drag queens" comment again and again. I have asked her to tone it down, but she wants to look like she wants to look. Quite frankly, I just want to blend as well as I can. I'm looking for as little trouble as possible when I go out. Usually I hear very little, or get many strange looks....except when I go out with her. I guess I'm guilty of playing the TG hierarchy.

[Gillian]

I don't think the GG would help like loosing 50 pounds would. I am work in progress and I am ok with that. My friend is fine being with me but we didn't walk side by side through the maze of college students. Part of that was because only one person could walk through at a time.

I think your selling yourself a bit short on this, the psychology of the situation is telling me something else, I think your friend feels marginalised and on the edge of her desired society and being seen with someone who draws attention to her own past self to herself is possibly the basis of her reaction, I wonder if she appreciated how cruel her actions and words were when she spoke them, as she is obviously desperate to be accepted and distance herself from anyone or anything that will cause that to fail.

Sorry just thinking outloud, but that is what I sense.

[AllieSF]

Some very good comments here. I like to look at it from the perspective of first me as a man and who, man or woman, I would feel comfortable to go out with. Then compare that to the same situation if I went out dressed as a woman. So, for me, I probably would not go out to mainstream places (restaurants, theaters, etc.) with someone who wasn't more in line with how I act, dress and interface with other people. Therefore, if I probably wouldn't go out with someone in male mode, I probably wouldn't go out with a similar someone if we were both dressed as women. Now, when I am going to a club, Tgathering, or event where everyone may or may not be dressed or act on the edge, it really does not bother me at all. Of course, in all this the other person's personality and depth of personal relationship with me also comes into play.

[Sally24]

This is really not much different than a GG. Growing up many girls have friends that dress in different fashions, goth, ****ty, mousey, over the top high glam. They don't always want that friend with them depending on the venue. It's just like making judgements on people's behaviors. I've got friends that I love being with but that because of them being loud, or silly, I would not go with them to certain places. I don't mind standing out, but like to choose the where and when myself.

[kellycan27]

I think your selling yourself a bit short on this, the psychology of the situation is telling me something else, I think your friend feels marginalised and on the edge of her desired society and being seen with someone who draws attention to her own past self to herself is possibly the basis of her reaction, I wonder if she appreciated how cruel her actions and words were when she spoke them, as she is obviously desperate to be accepted and distance herself from anyone or anything that will cause that to fail.

Sorry just thinking outloud, but that is what I sense.

I think you are confusing desperation with "desire" Just as cder's want to be able do dress and do as they please without fear of confrontation so do transsexuals. Being seen with a non passable is not going to cause a TS to "fail" ..it's just a moment in time and will have no lasting effect as far as acceptance in society. I don't understand why some people, cder's and some TS's alike seem to take other's personal "desires" as some sort of personal affront that they need to psychoanalyze.

[AKAMichelle]

It's not just about being with a non-passable cder Michelle. It's a hard life and if and when you are finally able to transend being a transsexual and make your way in the mainstream undetected, reminders of past experiences don't bode very well. it's like....been there have the t-shirt.
I don't do TG or LBGT venues simply because there isn't anything there for me, and again they only serve as reminders of unpleasant memories.
Some people say that I should not "forget" where I came from, but to be perfectly honest...that is exactly what I want to do. Yes we are all in this thing together as we sit here and chat, but once the computer is turned off, it's just me. I am not a transsexual, I am a woman. It's nothing personal. Even if you get read and I don't when we are together.. your being read still reminds me of...."me". I have a life and I have plans and dreams. Being a transsexual doesn't fit into any of that.

Kel

I understand this sentiment and if I was TS I think after a certain point I would disappear. Once you fully transition to the point that you go about your life unnoticed, then I would see it as a possilbe way to out yourself after all of that work to hide to in plain sight.

I know how hard it is transition becasue I have thought about it myself for a long time. I know what a TS person endures and I felt bad because my presence caused a problem for her. I never intended to do that. In fact she is one of my best friends. We have helped each other through multiple things and I would never want to hurt even unintentionally.

[Jason+]

I have avoided going out again with other cd'ers if they wore too skimpy of clothes and didn't really try to hide the fact that they were a cd'er. I attract enough attention but I don't want to be out with someone who attracts attention at 1000 yards when I only do 100 yards.

What I am afraid of Denise and Michelle, is that the problem exists in the minds of the general public. I have a friend that really looks like a guy in a dress. On top of that she will only wear short, short dresses and flamboyant makeup. If I go out with her I have a good time with her, but must get the "look at the two drag queens" comment again and again. I have asked her to tone it down, but she wants to look like she wants to look. Quite frankly, I just want to blend as well as I can. I'm looking for as little trouble as possible when I go out. Usually I hear very little, or get many strange looks....except when I go out with her. I guess I'm guilty of playing the TG hierarchy.

It is for this reason I have only been to one Tri-Ess meeting and don't have any plans to attend very many CD/TG events. I am not particularly flamboyant in most of my choices but I am unwilling to pay the admission price of passing. Out of respect for the groups/girls that are I would not want to go with them and draw them extra unnecessary attention just to be me. I would expect of any of my friends that were willing to go out and about with me to let me know before the event and to perhaps choose someone else to go with if they felt there would be an issue for them because of me. I am not sure your friend was completely fair to you on that one.

[Faith_G]

I can't imagine saying something like that to one of my friends. Even if I felt it I would never say that, it's an unkind thing to say.

I'm sorry she pushed her insecurity off on you.

[Daenna Paz]

[QUOTE=AKAMichelle;2248934]
When we go out, do we somehow have a judgement process of other cd'ers to determine their passability. Depending upon that evaluation do we decide if we ever go out with them again? Is that why we go to only TG friendly places because we would stick out like a sore thumb in a regular establishment?

[SIZE="3"]Don't we, in 'regular life' apply some kind of scaling process to those we socialize with?
We should not, but we do at times stereotype people ...

I refuse to evaluate / judge my friends by how they 'get by' or what they wear. I have been out with persons that pass remarkably well to those who are read 1/4 mile away ... can't say that it has affected my desire to go somewhere with them ... I go anywhere, not just "T G friendly" places, and don't worry about my thumb ... LOL!!! [/SIZE]

[SIZE="4"]Just my .02 ...[/SIZE]

[Nicole Erin]

You mean trahnnies run around in packs?
I can't believe it!

[Danni Bear]

Oh yes Nicole
btw signing you up for next pack
anybody want to volunter for den mother?

Danni

[sissystephanie]

I don't believe the hierarchy is with the general public at all. It is with a few, among the millions, people who have very closed minds!

I say this because since my wife passed away I have still been going out in public, dressed enfemme, a lot! But the difference is that in no way am I trying to pass. I wear no wig or makeup. I am just a guy in a skirt and femme top with the appropiate lady things underneath. I haven't had one bad comment yet, and most of the time don't even get a second look. There have been numerous compliments on my outfits, and some requests as to where I bought the skirt or top!

The problem with thinking about a hierarchy is that we are all indivduals! I dress to please myself, not the people on this forum or anywhere else! That is what each of us should do!! The only exception I make to that rule is my own family! Yes, they know I CD, but I do not wear skirts or dresses around them. But I am almost always underdressed!!

I do think that sometimes people worry about things that should not be worried about!

[kellycan27]

Michelle
I do understand where your friend is coming from, but I don't think I could ever come right out and say.. hey, you're cramping my style. I did ask one friend to please tone it down a notch for a church rummage sale once.
I certainly ( to be honest) thought it at times.

Kel

[AKAMichelle]

[QUOTE=Daenna Paz;2249319]

When we go out, do we somehow have a judgement process of other cd'ers to determine their passability. Depending upon that evaluation do we decide if we ever go out with them again? Is that why we go to only TG friendly places because we would stick out like a sore thumb in a regular establishment?

[SIZE="3"]Don't we, in 'regular life' apply some kind of scaling process to those we socialize with?
We should not, but we do at times stereotype people ...

I refuse to evaluate / judge my friends by how they 'get by' or what they wear. I have been out with persons that pass remarkably well to those who are read 1/4 mile away ... can't say that it has affected my desire to go somewhere with them ... I go anywhere, not just "T G friendly" places, and don't worry about my thumb ... LOL!!! [/SIZE]

[SIZE="4"]Just my .02 ...[/SIZE]

I know that you are this way because you went out with me and want to do more outings. Either you are a good sport or a gluten for punishment. Or just like the places I choose for dinner.

Michelle
I do understand where your friend is coming from, but I don't think I could ever come right out and say.. hey, you're cramping my style. I did ask one friend to please tone it down a notch for a church rummage sale once.
I certainly ( to be honest) thought it at times.

Kel

She didn't say anything to me. In fact we talked today and told me that she would go anywhere with me. She didn't care if I was read or not. I just felt bad because I know how dangerous it is for a TS person to be outed.

[Samantha Girl]

I'm with Sissystephanie on this

I understand how your TS friend was feeling Michelle but I feel like that was kinda crappy to tell you when you were out and about. If it bothers her, maybe she should have talked to you about it before that. That's my feeling. Hope you figure it out and this doesn't continue to worry you

Some of you would NEVER go out with me that's for sure. I do not pass, I may look like it, but I really don't and I don't really care to personally. I have confidence now and it's simply not important to me. I stick out like sore thumb with my big hair, ****ty outfits and big old 5 inch platform kneeboots (which all make me like 6 foot 5 instead of 5 foot 10!) Never leave home en femme without'em!

I went to NYC on vacation earlier this week and I went to a burlesque show en femme. I was standing outside the club smoking a cigarette next to the Williamsburg Bridge and I could give a crap about the doubletakes I received. It was soooo XXXXXXX liberating! We are all different and have different ideas on what it is to be a CD. Heirarchy... SMheirarchy!!

[Sarah Doepner]

Since I'm one of those who can attract unwanted attention, regardless of how well I prepare, I'd feel bad for anyone with me who also became the focus of attention just because they were with me. I have a friend who has transitioned and is well on her way to living life as a woman. When we meet I am pleased that she will stick around with me and even drag me along as we try to catch up on one another's lives.

On the other hand, I remember blending quite well one time and moving away from a group of other T-girls who were attracting attention. In retrospect I felt ashamed for my choice, but I was becoming very uncomfortable with the kind of attention being generated, including some strong comments by drunk young men. It wasn't safe and even though they were aware of the attention, there was no effort being made to make any changes, so I left. Nothing happened, so maybe I was just a little bit of a frightened bunny that night.

We all have our needs. We share a common one here but each of us has to make our own decisions and protect our well being, physical and mental. We share what we can and try to open doors for our community, but when the chips are down, we really do have to look out for ourselves first. Fortunately, most of the time our choices are pretty simple and don't cause any harm.

[MsJanessa]

what most transexuals want is not merely "to pass" but to be truely accepted as women--often heterosexual women--they want to be "normal"---hanging around with CDers and other T-types or gay guys is out of the mainstream for most GGs, and for a transexual is more of a reminder of what she used to be, not what she aspires to become. That's probably what your friend was experiencing---and although it's sad (and a little insensitive on her part to make you feel so uncomfortable) it's generally the way it goes. Not so much a heirarchy but a seperatness---once a TS is living sucessfully as a woman with the SRS etc, they really don't want to be reminded that they used to be male--so they tend to distance themselves from those things and people that remind them.

[Chickhe]

I think its just the way it is...but, also she may be too quick to believe she is being read just because she is with a CDer. I recently met a member of a local group who was full time, in some ways she was not passable (her method of speaking and tone of her voice was, to me at least, very masculine), but her body was feminine. She thought I looked great (I'm just a part time CDer) and said I should have no problems in public...and I never do.. I know I'm read up close though... so, In my case, I suppose it could have been the reverse case. She was so comfortable just being herself that this didn't really matter to either of us and to me mostly I shy away from the spotlight, but on this day we just shopped, made a bit of noise and nobody paid us any attention...but what was happening is she is comfortable being seen as a TS and being seen as a female is bonus. or not all that important to her.

[AKAMichelle]

Let me make it clear that my friend never said anything to me. She never did anything to make me thing what I did.

I just felt bad because I was getting read and I know how unsafe it is for to be read as a transitioning woman. We talked about it and she told me that there are certain cd'ers that she won't go out with because they attract too much of the wrong attention. That got me thinking about this hierarchy thing. So I posed the question to see if I was trying to see something that wasn't there or not.

My TS friend and I are best friends. We are very close and I have to prod her hard to get her to tell me the tough items because she is so worried about my feelings. She finally today told me after a lot of prodding that my walk needed work. So I guess I will to work the equitte of proper ladylike walking soon.

On the other hand, I remember blending quite well one time and moving away from a group of other T-girls who were attracting attention. In retrospect I felt ashamed for my choice, but I was becoming very uncomfortable with the kind of attention being generated, including some strong comments by drunk young men. It wasn't safe and even though they were aware of the attention, there was no effort being made to make any changes, so I left. Nothing happened, so maybe I was just a little bit of a frightened bunny that night.

This is my point. I have done the same thing before. I think we all have. I have avoided going out with some because they don't pass very well. I still remember one person who I went to eat with who wore a very short skirt to do shopping and very high heels and she was already 6'3". She was drawing unwanted attention which I wasn't comfortable with. I try to go places and do things and have everybody leave me alone. I don't cause trouble for others and in turn I don't want any from them.

[DianeDeBris]

"She finally today told me after a lot of prodding that my walk needed work. So I guess I will to work the equitte of proper ladylike walking soon."

Hi Michelle -- it sounds to me like your friend is a true, honest, caring friend -- else she would not have offered the suggestions for improvement; I hope you are comfortable accepting her sincere love for you! Hugs -- Diane