Do we look for intolerance?

[PretzelGirl]

One thing I have found interesting as I started to get out around Utah and also come out to a few people was that I would hear comments like "I can't get out in Utah because they are so conservative." and "Where do you find accepting people in Utah?".

So this set me to observe some of the comments here. We have people who say that they are in the Catholic northeast and it isn't a good area to get out in. Well, I know we see Sally, Caroline, Angel Marie and others getting out there. What about those that are in the deep south with the southern Baptists? Without even mentioning SCC being in Atlanta (okay, I mentioned it), with have the likes of Diedre, ChristineK, GaGirl, and many more out there. Conservative Texas with their cowboys? Mid east with their rednecks (not too big on the term, but since that is what gets used). Loads of ladies getting out in all of these places.

So is there really a problem getting out based on being in a certain region? Are we building a bogeyman that starts big and gets in our way of doing what we want to do? To me, it comes down to human nature being what it is no matter where you live. I don't think it matters if a person is one religion or another, or from one cut of society or another. I think that the way people will react to us is fairly consistent from location to location.

Now this is not meant to be a push out for anyone. But if your only reason for not going out is because your area is sooooo conservative, I just want to ask if it really is or is it just a perception that becomes a barrier that you really don't need influencing you? I am here to tell you that after having been out with Kathi Lake once, I saw the amazing acceptance out there. And that set me going out on my own without a concern about it being Utah. Are there some knowing smirks and second glances? Sure. Tell me where you won't get that. But being in the supposed bastion of conservatism, I haven't been told I was wrong, I haven't been frowned at, and I haven't been heckled. So where are all the people that are suppose to keep me from going out?

[Steph.TS]

very nicely wirtten, I'm in Alberta, again a place known for it's consverative nature, I know that there are CD'ers and TS in the area (haven't met any but I know they are around) and I too am afraid of the 'conservative boogeyman' I think atleast for myself I'm very sensitive to being mocked or laughed at, or whatever especially on a issue as sensitive as CD/TG/TS.

but I think you made a very good point if we lived else where we'd find another reason we can't go out. or if we lived in a liberal city like San Fransisco we'd be afraid to leave the city dress as a woman, it might have more to do with us not being 100% accepting of what we want and so we have guilt holding us back saying that it's weird or that people will see you as an easy target for mocking etc...

[Linda7]

I have to admit that I've been thinking about the 'bogeyman' and the question: does he exist? Maybe most people accept cross-dressers etc., but there may be the odd one or two ready to make some kind of comment - but they will do that on a host of other matters as well. Are we trying to scare ourselves?
Linda7

[Nicole Brown]

I agree with you totally Sue, and what a wonderfully written piece this is. I have been traveling on business for more years than I will admit to and have been dressing for all of these years. It is true that I have only been going out for the past 6 or 7 years on a regular basis, but in this time I have traveled to many of the places you have mentioned and flown pretty across the country on several occasions. I have walked the streets of Plano, TX, Atlanta, GA, San Diego, CA, Washington DC, Portland, both Maine and Or, and countless other cities and have most always just found that people don't bother you or make a scene. On the rare occasion when someone has had to display their ignorance or stupidly, I usually just tend to ignore them and go on my way. People are people, some are religious and some are not, some are Conservative and some are liberal but that is what make up the world.

I suppose that I am lucky to live in New Jersey, OMG I can't believe I just said that...., but this is a state where we are well protected by laws and mostly I can just live as I choose and go where I want.

[Lucy_Bella]

Sue,
I understand where you are coming from buy then nature of peoples beliefs and areas known for those who populate them.
Can't everywhere be San Francisco and thank God for that.. Being raised in the" Bible Belt" I take pride in my roots. For the most part if something arose that was out of the ordinary, most folks may talk about it but in the end their opinion is always the same " to each their own" ..

As a Conservative ,I am here with everyone else all I can say is " To Each Their Own " ..For the most part I think it comes down to a Soceity as a whole on acceptance to something they just don't understand or maybe even are afraid of. It may be myth that certain areas are more unaccepting than others but think about certain religions sexually abuseing young men while others steal money from trust funds.
We all live in glass houses problem is some of these houses have stained glass..

[Shelly Preston]

I dont think we look for intolerance. I have noticed when being out if you dress correctly for the occasion, you will find most people either dont notice or just look and comment to their friends.

However I think you find most intolerance in conversations with those who have no idea you crossdress.

[Joanne f]

It is not so much as looking for intolerance but knowing where intolerance is , i live in a town that is intolerant and if you are different then you are a target , yet not to far away is a town that is tolerant of most things .
If being a visitor to this other town you would have no problem wearing what you like as i have seen this for myself, yet if you came to my town wearing the same thing you would have problems.
Unfortunately i am known in both towns so if i dressed the way i would like to in this other town the problems would follow me home.

[PretzelGirl]

It is not so much as looking for intolerance but knowing where intolerance is .

But this is part of my point. Everyone thinks they know where it is, but is it really where everyone thinks? Using my home as an example. Everyone thinks it is quite the intolerant place, but I just don't see it.

[Pythos]

I think a controlling fear is what if you are wrong about an area being "accepting" and turns out to be the home of some real haters. You could end up beaten all to hell, or worse dead.

That is a mighty high price to pay for a slight misjudgment.

Let's also not forget you can still lose your job if someone at your work sees you and wants to start some crap.

[Asako]

When it comes to me, you're probably right about that Sue but...I also know this town's people and have quite a few relatives here. Then there's what Pythos said...someone can cost you your job if they see you and feel like starting trouble.

[Joanne f]

Sue,
you can say that because you have never had to face this intolerance, whereas i can say what i do because i have faced and suffered this intolerance .
There are other factors that do play a part in it all and i would agree that in most case`s there is a lot of tolerance (although tolerance is the wrong word) more like people just do not care what you are if it is not effecting them , and maybe you blend in very well , it is when they know who you are and where you are from you can get this intolerance from the not so normal people of this world .
I would not want to put anyone off as i would say that in most place`s you are accepted just that there are times you have to be careful .

[PretzelGirl]

Joanne, just to be clear, I am not saying there aren't places with intolerance and I don't know your area. But what I am saying is that I think intolerance is brought out as a problem far too often as we don't give other people the benefit of being accepting. So I absolutely feel for those who have to face intolerance.

And also as a general comment, I am not mixing intolerance together with the issue of having to go out miles away from where you live. That isn't a tolerance issue. That is a discretion issue and extremely suitable for the majority of us.

[Toni_Lynn]

I think we do. Sometimes I have to wonder if we expect intolerance to be there, and in its actual absence, we create it. It reminds me of the McCarthy era in the USA when Senator Eugene McCarthy was convinced that there were communists in every aspect US society and government, when in fact there were none.

I recall a certain person no longer on the board who was hell-bent on showing that every depiction of TG people on TV and another media was a reason for a boycott -- there was a thread about Mars bars I think. It was a complete and total over-reaction, as was usual for this individual.

That said, I feel that people are a lot more tolerant than we give them credit for, and people are also a lot less observant than we imagine them to be. In other words, there is no big flashing neon sign that say "this person has is wearing panties and has a penis" above any one of us.

Huggles

Toni-Lynn

[AKAMichelle]

You can always find people who won't accept us. Certain areas will have a higher concentration of non-accepting people in it. But if you are going to let others tell you what and who to be then you will be miserable. Sometimes you just have to be out there and push the envelope. I wouldn't let people in Utah prevent me from being me and I know what you are talking about. I grew up in the Tennessee in the heart of the fundamental bible belt.

[Joanne f]

Lets just say that it is tolerance by disassociation as most are tolerant of people that they do not know doing things that do not affect them, but it can change once it is someone you know , most wife`s/SOs neighbours , friends and work place are all tolerant of someone else being different but once it is their husband/SO or work mate doing it that can change other wise if you all truly believed that you would tell your wife/SO and just walk out the front door (OK i know a lot do ) but some have lost wive`s because of the intolerance of CDing .
Yes it is a lot better than it use to be and the only way it will change is if more do it so don`t let me paint it to black

[Danni Bear]

I have debated whether to enter this thjread for two days.
In that time I have seen some good answers and some that reinforce sterotypes.

Tolerance/Intolerance are learned behaviors reinforced by knowledge or lack thereof.
As such either can be modified, tolerance by false information,deciet, and outright lies. Intolerance by factual information.

Acceptance/nonacceptance are modified by each persons tolerance level.
This is not only in the cd/tg/ts areana, but in all life.

How you defeat intolerance and nonacceptance is by being truthful in yourself and by your actions. In how you react to events around you. How you individually treat people who are different from yourself.

Tolerance comes from inside, intolerance comes from without.


Danni

[ArleneRaquel]

Intolerance can be found anywhere & everywhere. I just try to be myself and try not be very flashy,even though my dressing is not often of the conservative nature. Interance seems to be, in my own life, seems to be way down. I hope that my observations are correct.

[Kathi Lake]

I think Danni kind of hit it. There'a a difference between tolerance and acceptance. Tolerance means that the person is uncomfortable with your differences, but will look the other way, or tolerate you. Acceptance is more of a straight-on You're OK.

When I go out, I strive for acceptance. Do I always receive it? No. But heck, I'll take tolerance, if need be. Usually though, I will disarm them with humor, charm, heck - my legs, if I have to. I don't give them time to wonder if they accept me or not or form an opinion of me. I let them know that yes, yes they do accept me.



Kathi

[ArleneRaquel]

Kathi,
Love your response.

[Frédérique]

So is there really a problem getting out based on being in a certain region? Are we building a bogeyman that starts big and gets in our way of doing what we want to do? To me, it comes down to human nature being what it is no matter where you live. I don't think it matters if a person is one religion or another, or from one cut of society or another. I think that the way people will react to us is fairly consistent from location to location.

[SIZE="2"]Yes, I’m guilty of doing that, but I’m only looking out for my own safety. It certainly doesn’t hurt to look around and be aware of your surroundings. Once bitten, twice shy, as far as I’m concerned. I’ve lived in two completely different parts of the country, culturally and politically, but things are really the same in regards to tolerance or lack of same. It does come down to human nature, and this innate repulsion towards the act of crossdressing for pleasure goes way back, bumping up against the instincts for survival, procreation, and expectation. Knowing that, all I can do is look around and see where I can move about freely, searching for signs of intolerance in everyday life. I find them, but I’m looking with wide open eyes…

The truth is, I used to live in a fairly overpopulated area (Boston, MA), so it took some skill to navigate around the potholes of intolerance. My family members, so-called friends and acquaintances all saw transvestism as a perversion, or a sign of weakness (or worse). All this, in a liberal atmosphere clouded with inborn prejudice. Here in Kansas there is plenty of room to move around in – I can come and go freely, rarely feeling the vulnerability that I used to feel back in New England. However, the intolerance for alternative lifestyles is highly visible, if unspoken. I would venture to say that not getting married and not procreating is a form of perversion here in the Heartland, to the point where THAT is considered to be a red flag of some kind of problem, hinting at something needing “correction.” With that in mind, the best I can hope for in terms of tolerance (or acceptance) for crossdressing is to cluster in some barely-mentioned get-together with my fellow lovers of alternative-ness, hidden away from society for fear of forced indoctrination. Some may feel I’m overstating the issue, but I see intolerance for homosexuality (a non-procreative lifestyle) on the bumpers of cars, and on signs sprinkled throughout the landscape – it’s pretty obvious that my take on things would not be tolerated openly, since crossdressing (or transvestism) is often linked with homosexuality purely for convenience by unenlightened individuals…

So, yes, I look for intolerance, because it is a universal phenomenon. You need intelligence to be tolerant, but that, sad to say, is no guarantee…[/SIZE]

[Rianna Humble]

I do think that a lot of us here believe that their area is intolerant based on things that may have happened in the past, but I recently had an illustration of how much things have progressed.

I work in Brighton in the UK - an area known for its tolerance of alternative life styles (in fact if you conform to the norm you are almost out of place in Brighton )

Last week, I went for the first time to a transgender support group in Brighton. Whilst I was telling the founder about how accepting people have been both at work and in my home town on the other end of the county, she replied wistfully "I'm glad for you, I wish they had been that tolerant when I transitioned 17 years ago! It cost me my family, my job and my friends".

There definitely are still areas of intolerance - a self-styled christian recently told a member of this forum that they wished she would go out and commit suicide - but I also think that we are occasionally guilty of letting our lives be governed by fear of rejection, when in reality we have nothing to fear but fear itself.

[charlotte_sp]

@Sue: Forgive me for putting words in your mouth, but I think what you're trying to get at is that we should not go out expecting intolerance because it will become a self-fulfilling prophecy. It's kind of a variation on the "attitude is everything" approach. I do it by trying to smile at everyone.

As far as my personal experiences go, I have definitely observed that strangers just aren't that interested in you if you go out.
Usually they'll look once, maybe twice, and that's it.

On the other side of the fence, if you are talking about people with whom you interact daily or often, then that's an entirely different beast. It seems to be the case that people here generally talk about the intolerance of their neighbors, their family, or their peers. I think the prevailing regional culture really does matter in those situations, and the consequences for being outed can vary greatly.

[Angie G]

Great point Sue. Nicely put hun.
Angie

[Nicole Erin]

There will always be pricks.
The idea is to keep an eye out for them and avoid them.

Isn't it funny how pretty much every area is labeled "fundamentalist conservative bible belt"? Kind of like every spider bite MUST be a brown recluse, every dog attack was a pit bull, and according to GWB - every misfortune was a terrorist attack.

Hey I have had my fair share of haters and they are very aggrivating and discouraging but really, what are you gonna do? Go up and ask their permission to live as you see fit?

If you are fortunate enough to live in an area with a lot of riff raff, yes there will be more problems but those types also hate mexicans, blacks, gays, decent haircuts, anyone who has money, etc.

Many times I have wanted to run and hide when some ass-hat makes a remark but ultimately, they have not stopped me from being Erin.

Not once has an Erin went up and asked, "Is it OK to be me?" I am an Erin, take it or leave it.