"She"

[Ze]

I'm simply posting out of frustration at the moment.

Although it's bothered me ever since I came out to myself, I've finally hit a point where I want to yell at the world, "Stop calling me 'she'!" It's likely because I'm trying to put myself out there and actually socialize, but I'm getting it a lot more than before either personally or by association. My one (ironically) LGBT professor says "she" when referring to FtMs, as does a pre-transition MtF I met the other day. I hear it on the street when passing by strangers*, when I have to barely interact with a cashier or like-person, with people I'm just meeting, and just plain when people slip up (and don't bother to correct themselves). And then to top it off, I come on here and still occasionally see somebody refer to me as a girl. It seems I honestly can't escape it unless I go back to as complete an isolation as humanely possible. Some get an unfortunate pass because they just don't know any better due to the estrogen I can't shave off on my own, but others simply seem to not care enough to get it right. Very few people, regardless of their identity, seem to care enough to get it right. This is beyond disheartening. It hence tells me that I'm respected very little by such people. And for what reason?

And with people that simply don't know any better, I still illogically want to yell at them, "Why can't you see it?! How in the hell are you seeing a female?!"

It's just wearing me down. I feel I'm getting it from all sides. I want to look male and yet I can't pull it off no matter how hard I try. I'm not fooling anyone and even if I could, when they find out I'm a transman as opposed to cis, it seems they'll revert to the "she." I want to take a shotgun to that word. It fills me with such a mental malaise whenever it's uttered, and it's been uttered quite a bit lately. I am not a goddamn female. And although I can't wait for T, I think it's pretty damn sad that that's my only chance at finally gaining some respect. Is respect still respect if it's blind?

*One street in particular gets such a joy out of harassing me that I've since changed my walking route entirely.

[Tracii G]

Tell me who these people are and this little girl will wreak havoc!! I don't think you look anyway close to a female but thats just me.Hell when I first saw one of your pics I thought you were a guy taunting the T men on here and just teasing them.Seriously.

[Andy66]

[Joanne f]

Ze,
i know this is important to you but you i have to let a lot of things in life just pass over your head and don't let other peoples mistakes, unwillingness, uncertainty and sometimes just plain rudeness upset you .
I agree with you in that your professor should know better so why not politely say to him (i am assuming it is a he) " i would be grateful if you refer to me as He and not she " or i will start to refer to you as she (OK maybe leave that last bit out)
Don`t beat yourself up over this just rise above it in the knowledge that you are wiser than them in knowing who you are , which makes you wiser than your professor and that can`t be bad

[Gerrijerry]

Dear Sir

This is to let you know that. you do not look like a woman to me.
I must tell you however that when I go out with my SO. For years at some places and even today the waiter or waitress would say hello guys what can I get you. Then a few minutes later another person would say have a nice day ladies. I think most people say things without thinking and are not trying to hurt you. They simple are tired and just saying words not really looking at you. I know you want everyone to see you the correct way. But most in the world with us don't even see the other person. they just want to get through the day. You have heard the saying a rose is still a rose no matter the name it still smells the same. You dear are a rose but not everyone see's the roses or stops to smell it. I hope this helps, I do understand how you feel. Yes I know this is important to you it is to all of us. But the world does not know that. They do not know what a nice person a guy like you can be if they just stopped and got to know you.

[MiraM]

I don't really see how anyone sees a 'girl' when they look at you. Looking at your avatar pic, you look a lot like one of my culinary school externs, and he is not a girl. Some people are just thick in the head and will never get it and will never change.

[Kieron Andrew]

Dude, little story for you...now you know ive been on hormones since December, sporting a very obvious goatee within months, and yet not so long ago Esther and I were out with friends and we were BOTH called ladies, this has happened to me several times, people see what they want to see, unfortunately we cant change their mindset but we can change how we react to them, its hard but its not worth letting it get to you...some people are just ignorant and dont want to learn, unfortunately we just have to ride it out, and challenge them in the appropriate way when it happens, transition ultimately makes us very focus and hardened to stuff like that eventually, you will learn to deal with it, as Gerri said the world doesnt realise how important this is to us, they only know what is important to them

[7sisters]

honestly, with this new hair cut of yours, there is nothing that even suggests female.

[sandra-leigh]

Last night was the first time ever (in 6 years of dressing) that a taxi-driver clearly referred to me as "m'am" even after seeing my face -- and I am including in there the times I was in full wig and makeup. In those six years, I've met one person who was so drunk that he couldn't decide what I was, and one person who had been drinking who believed I was female... and many other people who recognize me at a fair distance, in bad light, even if they've never seen me dressed before.

It was rather a blow to my dreams of being a good-looking woman that no-one I interacted with saw me as female at all.

But my situation is quite different than yours; I adapted and settled in to being openly androgynous, pleased to hear the female pronouns but understanding the male pronouns, especially from people who see also see me in my less obvious clothes. If at some time I go 24/7 and change my name, likely I'd start correcting pronouns. I suspect, though, that even if I were to (hypothetically) some day get GRS, that it would take FFS before people in general started using female pronouns for me.

[AnonyMouse]

I feel you, Ze. (But not in a creepy way. XD ) It really sucks when you're doing your darndest to present it to the world and somebody who thinks they "know better" goes and screws it up for you.

I have to admit, that's one of the biggest reasons that I want T. The facial hair, body shape, yadda, will be great, but what I'm really holding out for are those sweet male pronouns.

[LisaM]

I also understand your frustration, Ze. Here is a similar story that happened to me---I was at SCC last weekend with so many of my siters and brothers where you would hope the same 'he' 'she ' mistake wouldn't happen. But I was having a discussion with a group of trans women when one of them called me 'he' unintentionally. I just let it pass but it made me think about how she viewed me versus the other women we were with.

[Tracii G]

Ze like we said in the Army" let it go, let it turn, it don't mean nuthin".
I know it hurts you're feelings and makes you feel really bad but sometimes you just need to forge ahead and not give a rats ass.Thats what guys do anyway.Right Hoss?
You're my Hoss anyway LOL. J/K but not really OMG I'm such an enigma.

[Persephone]

I know how you feel. I'm MtF CD and I love it when I get "Ma'm," no matter how I am dressed. Sometimes I can go through an entire day, or a few days, hearing nothing but "Ma'm" and then, suddenly, without warning, someone will say "Sir." It feels like being stabbed with a knife. It hurts and I hate it.

I don't know how someone is seeing "girl" when they see you. I look at your avatar and I can't see anyone but a guy.

I only have still images to work from, so I'll take the plunge and ask -- have you worked past a lot of the moves you may have been raised with? Walk like a guy? Spit on the sidewalk? Take up space when you move and sit? Drop your stuff on your desk with a "thud"?

Have you thought about any coping strategies? Stare at 'em, ball your fists (but leave 'em at your sides) and grunt, "Excuse me?" Or swallow it for the moment and get rid of your frustration on the target range?

Hugs,
Persephone.

P.S. -- Even in most guy circles, breaking a beer bottle over their head as you say "Huh?" is considered bad form.

[Danni Bear]

Ze,

For a guy to be addressed as she, I don't know.
It does get frustrating and old. How many times must you remind them?
A guy is all I see when I look at your avatar.
Have faith it will all work out.


Danni

[AliciaJordan]

Ze,

You can look at it like this. Right now you are in the early stages just like any young teenage/young adult guy. You're trying to figure yourself out and this is making people confused, so they go with other little clues. As an example, I once saw a stand-up comic tell a story about walking down the street. He sees a couple of black guys walking toward him, so right away he gets scared. Not because they are black but because he thinks they will think he is prejudice. So now he is trying to figure out how to walk so they don't assume him to be prejudice against blacks. (By the way, he says it funnier than me telling it...)

This could be the same with you. You start walking and right away you are trying really hard to walk like a guy/act like a guy/etc... So instead of just walking, your body language is all over the map and now nobody has any idea what to think. I do this too as I am always saying, walk normal, don't look at those clothes, etc... or people will know my secret and this is from a bald 250+lb 6'2" guy (on the outside anyway...).

I say go with it and when it happens, take note of everything that happened just before it. Try and figure out if you did something differently than the last time that nobody made the mistake. I know it's hard, trust me I know, but try just begin yourself and finding who you are. Like any young guy, you are going to go through some different modes of presenting yourself to the world.

Alicia

[Kieron Andrew]

I only have still images to work from, so I'll take the plunge and ask -- have you worked past a lot of the moves you may have been raised with? Walk like a guy? Spit on the sidewalk? Take up space when you move and sit? Drop your stuff on your desk with a "thud"?

Have you thought about any coping strategies? Stare at 'em, ball your fists (but leave 'em at your sides) and grunt, "Excuse me?" Or swallow it for the moment and get rid of your frustration on the target range?

There might be something in this....although you most definitely LOOK like a guy Milo, without a shadow of a doubt in my mind, it might be the learned female body language/Behaviours from birth that might be giving others a hard time believing it...have a look at the way other guys sit, stand, walk, interact with other men, interact with women, listen to their speech patterns, watch how guys take up space when they sit or stand...de-training ourselves to stop learned behaviours is difficult but its not impossible...maybe thats what you need to work on rather than 'looking like a guy' cos you have that already , at the moment you are confusing people cos they see a guy but then the body language doesnt match up, thats why u had those kids 'rather rudely i might add' asking if you were a guy or a girl (which is better than assuming you are girl from the get-go right?) so you are half way there , us learning male ways of presenting ourselves as far as body language is concerned is just as much as important as MtF learning to speak with a female resonance

[Ze]

Yeah, I've analyzed the shit out of male behavior and do what I can to emulate it. Yet I don't think it's fair nor proper to get to a point of compromising my own personality and harboring some of the more overfed stereotypes (and I feel it's hitting that point). My voice is my biggest downfall, though. But this is unfortunately beside the point. I'm rarely able to pass the first-glance test. Everything beyond that, then, is just peanuts.

But my other (and more important) complaint in here is general respect regardless of passability. It's just not there.

[Lorileah]

They say respect is earned but it is really learned. Society has for thousands of years told us to respect huge overbearing males. They don't earn that respect but watch as everyone gives them wide berth and kow-tows to them. And many abuse that respect.

Others who are truly respected didn't get it over night. I would bet Bill gates ended up upside down in more than one toilet in high school. Warren Buffet was "just another" clerk. Elvis just a gyrating wannabe. They worked to get respect.

Hold on a sec while I slip out of the fem persona.

I am not a small guy. I am 6 ft tall, 190. I walk through crowds and would expect that no one would challenge my space and yet I give way. Call that being gentlemanly I guess or non-confrontational (ha!). There are times when someone suspects I cannot do "something" (usually something associated with the female side of the world) and they "dis" me. I don't have their respect and in my mind I really don't give a...if I do. They mean nothing to me either.

Your classmates and professor should respect you. Especially because they know the community. They know what TG individuals go through. My impression is they have issues of their own they have to work out. Often you see MtF's here who quite frankly have an agenda and they think that they need to be more and have something to prove that the rest of us just cannot understand. It is a common thread in issues of percieved demeaning. You cannot possibly understand how a real red head feels because you cannot BE a real red head. WE know this is mostly wrong. There is truth that we cannot know exactly how a person feels, that is individuality. But we can know how a group feels especially if we are part of that group. So as noted above,those you will just have to learn to roll off your back (we had a similar saying as Tracii...we usually said the code NFD...you can fill in the letters to meet your needs).

Back to fem mode now.

There may be a bigger hurdle you have over the MtF's in this aspect and it is one that is often raised by the MtF's here. Women can and do present in mannish attire all the time and don't want to be considered male. This I think can be confusing to your casual acquaintances. The Butch lesbian who really wants to be seen as female but act as a male can be the image these people see. Not being in the lesbian community I don't know what the ratio of TS's would be but most don't have plans to transition (making an assumption here...could be wrong). But seeing a woman in men's jeans and shirts and even work boots is common now and for the most part the world still addresses them as "she". Facial hair may be the biggest thing to separate a butch from a TS. (I know thin ice here but it is the perception). I am not sure that adding masculine movement or actions will even sway this as many Butch lesbians I know are often masculine in action.

In the MtF side we are seen as gay, flamboyant, prancing light in the loafers.....gay. We don't like it. The gay men around in daily life don't like it. But hat is the perception. In you case you have the wall of not being a butch lesbian or appearing as such, and maintaining who you are. You are a guy. You know that and when you get to know people they will know that. As time and hopefully hormones go on the signal of being male will be more obvious and these encounters will fade (but not completely go away) and right now *ducking* you look like a guy but you look like a young ...pardon me uh intellectual guy. And that's OK. Many of the "girls" here have lived with that and we survived. All I can offer now is that , when you get my age, you will wish you were still the "cute guy" and now the grizzled grumpy old man

If you can correct the person, do it. Education is the key. If it is one of those you will never see the person again, I'd let it roll. Hold your head up and slump your shoulders, swing those arms side to side and charge into your next encounter.

[Tracii G]

Very well put Lorileah.
Ze just be true to yourself first and not let others run your life in an emotional sense.
I soo understand your frustration how people "view" us be it trans,gay ,lesbian whatever they just have a hard time dealing with anything that doesn't fit in that "normal" box.
Give it time and your guy side will show more and more.

[Hope]

I think that Lorileah is really on target here. I am a big "guy" and when I want them to, people get out of my way. But the thing is, I have to put that on. Most of the time I blend in and folks flow around me like anyone else, like Lorileah says I "give way" - but in the cases where I need, or simply want to exercise a little male privilege, I know how to do it. I know how to stare other men down, I know how to look like I mean business, I know how to behave in order to be treated with that dominant male respect. If you want to be respected as a guy, you have to TAKE it, it won't be given to you, it won't be offered to you, and it certainly won't be afforded simply on the basis of your existence. And if you don't take it, if you don't even try, you will get disrespect, you will essentially be treated like a woman, actually, you will be treated worse than that, you will be treated like a bitch. The jockeying for and competition for dominance is constant. It is one of the things I loath the most about guy culture.

And I know you are going to complain about size. It really has very little to do with physical size. The saying "it's not about the size of the dog in the fight, but rather about the size of the fight in the dog" is absolutely true. My flight instructor was a 5'2" 100# 65 year old WWII vet. At the time I knew him I was a 6'2" 180# 16/17 year old kid. NO ONE would have put money on him kicking my ass - except for me, and everyone else who knew him. It had absolutely NOTHING to do with body size or physical ability, it had EVERYTHING to do with the fact that he brought the dominance all the time, everyday, cranked up to 11, and no one, NO ONE gave him shit, no one called him shorty, or Jr. or Miss, you called him "Bud" because that was how he told you that you were allowed to address him.

Lorileah probably has something with the issue of butch girls, and people trying to address most butch girls as girls... But as others have said, your photo does not scream butch girl, your photo says "guy." If this were one or two people in your life that used the wrong pronouns, I would think it was just a super-clueless professor and tell you to blow him off, LIKE A BOSS, but if this is pretty much everyone in your world, if this happens basically every time you go out, pretty much every place you go - the lowest common denominator is you. You have stated that you simply want to be respected for existing. I agree with you, that would be nice, and that is how the world SHOULD work... but that is the way a girl thinks / acts. If you are behaving out of that sort of ideation, you may be wearing guy clothes, but you are screaming girl. I would bet dollars to donuts that you are still using female speech patterns. (Get a copy of Norah Vincent's "Self-Made Man" - if you haven't read it already I am sure it would be eye opening for you. Available at Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/Self-Made-Man-...ear-Disguised/)

You don't have to act like a guy, unless you want to be treated like a guy. Part of that is adhering to a strict set of rules. You may not like it, God knows, I hate it, but if you want to be treated like a guy, you have to act like a guy. If I wear jeans and a t-shirt and a pair of work boots and swish around, no one is going to treat me with a lot of respect. I won't even get respect in the gay community that way. Much the same way if I were to put on a dress, and stomp around like a guy in it. Even if I do a great job of covering my beard shadow, have a good make-up day, have my hair perfectly quaffed, manage the perfect tuck, and have the worlds most convincing beast forms. If I lumber around like a guy, and talk like a guy (even with a good "girl" voice) and interact with people like a guy, folks are going to think "guy in a dress." Very few will call me "miss" or use female pronouns and the ones who do will do it derisively. I wish it weren't so... but it is. And it is even worse for you, because you want to enter a world where being taken seriously is currency. A girl can be flamboyant if she wants to, a guy cannot. A girl can be ditzy if she wants to, a guy cannot. A girl can be flirty if she wants to, a guy cannot. A girl can be pretty much anything she wants to be, including butch - where as a guy has to be a guy, or he will be a bitch, and never, ever taken seriously.

You don't have to emulate the "overfed stereotypes" in fact, if you do, that is likely going to backfire in a pretty spectacular fashion. The "over confident" "over aggressive" jerk is invariably read as over compensation - and most guys will behave around you accordingly... treating you like a poser... until you encounter another guy affecting the "over confident" "over aggressive" jerk thing in which case he won't recognize that it is over compensation (because he doesn't recognize it in himself) and will mistake it for a real confrontation - and then it is on. But that is not to say that you cannot fake it until you make it. You can put on, just the way I do, and I expect that Lorileah does as well, the guy front until you figure out exactly how to grow into the male identity, and mold it to a more authentic expression of who you are. This is a struggle every guy goes through. But it has to be a guy front, it can't be a girl in pants; that won't work any more than a guy in a dress works. And that is not to say that you can't do the whole "girl in pants" thing either, there is nothing wrong with that, but you will never get respect from men that way, and you will never be considered one of the guys that way. Just as the MTFs have to learn to see, and give up male privilege, you have to learn to see and give up female privilege.

I am sure you will hate hearing this. I am sorry about that. Seriously, I didn't write all of this to piss you off. But here is the thing, this should be good news to you. The way you behave in the world is something that is completely under our direct control, and it costs us nothing. Modifying our bodies is hard, and expensive, and it rarely works out the way we want. Behavioral stuff is free, and under our direct control - we just have to be aware of it, and learn it. If you want to be treated like a man, man up. It is the same for you as it is for me, as it is for every other guy.

[tanyalynn51]

Be who you are. Not who they think you are. That applies to anything in life, not just with us tg people. Prejudice is about all kinds of stuff, and I would like to tell you to brush it off, but I have the same"take no prisoners" attitude towards life that you seem to. I guess we just have to try to find a way to be better than them.

[Ze]

"Self-Made Man" is actually a pretty bad book. She's just...yeah...I can't even go into it. The only good point of the whole thing is she scratches the surface of speech patterns. Again, I haven't mastered this stuff to my liking, but I'm well aware of it all.

I unfortunately feel like not many are getting my actual point here, but I give up. I feel I've said it enough by this point. I'm not at all asking how to pass in the world; I know all of that already. I'm talking about transman respect in a cisgender world. End of.

[Danni Bear]

ZE,

Believe me, I am not making light on what you are experiencing. Transmen and transwomen exist partly in a limbo world. Not welcome in either cis world male or female for long periods of time. This changes over time for each trans person. Respect for trans begins and ends with each of us, you cannot force or demand it. It is freely given. You can not earn respect only admiration. People who through ignorance or not caring hurt those who can least afford it.

As my grandmother once told me.

Let not your heart be troubled, all will be yours one day.

Love
Danni

[7sisters]

RESPECT IS TAUGHT

Most cis and LGBT people dont meet trans people every day. So learing about this medical condition is low on their list of priorities. Hence they have no idea about the pronoun usage. But these people have their hearts in the right places most of the time. It's really up to each one of us, to educate them.


If all of us on this forum can educate one person a month about what CDing is and what Transsexualism is, it is a start. But the onus is on us.

[charlotte_sp]

Ze, sorry to hear that you're having a tough time with it.

I think 7sisters is right that most people are not being actively disrespectful.
They just don't know, and that's unfortunately not likely to change any time soon.
I know it's difficult, but try to shrug off as best you can the misgendering from people you've just met.

If people you interact with daily (like your professor) know that it's important to you and still use the wrong pronouns, I completely agree that they are seriously disrespecting you.
Maybe you can ask your friends to help correct the pronoun usage when people screw it up?
Having someone speak up for you can make a huge difference.

Best of luck!