A question for GGs only, about "manly men"

[Pythos]

I am posing this question to the people on this board .


There are terms I hear applied to the type of men women want, these terms include but are not limited to "manly", or " man's man" or the ever so common "Masculine"

This is what I have come to connect these terms to.

Strong, tough, muscles, brave, daring, dominating, assertive,

I know there are more, but I am going to stick with these since they are the ones I have the most issue with.

First off, I need to ask, why do you accept these terms as being "masculine"? Why are these terms even considered manly? Why can't women exhibit these terms?

Strong: Yes being strong is a handy thing. Able to lug heavy objects is something that can be quite convenient....So I posit again, what is so manly, and attractive about this for women? Strength from what I have seen has also been used to beat women, restrain them, and in many ways visit misery upon women. It is also one of the key things used in conflicts. Both to start, and propagate conflicts.

Tough: Really just a variation of the word strong, but more dealing with resistance. Once again, why is this a trait more commonly associated with the half of the species with those ever so vulnerable organs that hang between the legs, positioned in such a manner a good swift kick can incapacitate the male?

Muscles: My understanding is all animal species have these, yet I have noticed associates being manly with having big muscles. Muscles that bulge, sometimes in ways that only A LOT of time spent in a gym would result in, time in the gym, using steroids, and NOT spending time taking care of the kids, or being with their S.O. My mother absolutely hated the time my dad spent in the garage "pumping iron" and the Muscleman magazines he read, and the violent mood swings that came about after he drank following a "good" work out. I am in absolutely no way musclebound in appearance. The creator blessed me with long and lean muscles. When I was a kid my dad MADE me work out so that I would "be a man", the results were that my upper body barely developed visually, but did develop strength wise. I am what is called wirery.

But, once again I ask. Why is the muscle build of a male so important to some women? Yes, it means he MAY be able to lift large objects, and grunt a lot? But what is appealing about this? Especially now a days when we have machines that do this. Also, once again my experience is most of these muscle bound morons use those muscles to beat people up, including their lovers if they were to transgress some rule.

Brave: Now this one gets me. This is an honorable trait for ANYONE, not just men. However, in this forum we have what can be called very brave men, cause they go out in styles that for the most part would draw ridicule. Yet these men are not honored by society, instead they are shunned for the most part.

What exactly makes a man brave, cause aside from those fighting in this damned war, most of those things considered brave I often associate with fool hardy. Xtreme sports come to mind.

Dominating: I have a female friend whom, if all goes well will be my S.O. However she wants a dominant man. Now, I have learned of her past, through her. She was raped by a domineering father, at the age of 5, while her subservient mother looked on. In the course of her time on this planet, many other "dominant" cowards also beat her and raped her. They exercised their manliness by doing an extremely cowardly and damaging act. Why are so many woman drawn to Dominant men? Why is it sooooo appealing?

Assertive: My experience is this is a very wishy washy term. How so? I have seen women put off by assertive men for the most part. Women do what they can to drive off the assertiveness, and then for some odd reason complain about "their man" not being assertive. I believe the more common term for this (and one I dislike) is "pussy whipped". You have seen this male type. The type that will say "yes dear" in a rather defeated tone, to what ever pointless or stupid idea the woman comes up with (this is only in extreme cases, but unfortunately it is very common)

As I said at the beginning of this post I stated how these traits are not necessarily masculine, or feminine. They are however pushed by our society and its constructs.

I presented only the negative aspects of these traits as well, aside from the bravery one. That is because, they are the ones that I have seen are usually involved with a lot of misery on this earth. Funny enough, the traits that make life pleasant: Caring, loving, feeling, nurturing, and so on are connected with FEMININE!!! LOL.

So ladies, let's get your answers. I look forward to it.

[Pythos]

Okay, seeing as there have been 140 plus views, and 0 responses, I am going to throw this open to everyone on the forum.

[suchacutie]

Ok...I'll give it a try to see if we can get this going.

Strong, tough, etc... LOL: I have to admit that I probably can't discuss all of this in the open forum. Let me put it this way. When your spouse asks you to open a jar lid she can't budge, and you do it with ease, that look in her eyes explains all of this.

Assertive: Now here we can have a discussion. Before Tina, I'd sit down with my wife and she'd start talking about some issue that was troubling her and my first instinct was to try to solve her problem. Is that a guy thing? Sure is!!! Tina learned quickly that sometimes she really did not want to have the problem solved, but wanted it talked through! Sometimes she wants her man, sometimes she wants Tina.

When Tina arrived, my wife and I made a number of decisions (some of them just happened without thought!) but one of them was "when I want my man, I want him...no aspersions to Tina...I just want him".

'nuf said!

[Tracy X Cruz]

Well... I think it is similar to the reason why many of us present as female/cross dress... What makes clothing female or male, what makes these traits masculine or feminine?

I think the answer is culture and expectations.

We grow up in a culture that impresses what is normal/acceptable/desirable into us. When you ask most people why pink or skirts are for girls they answer "because thats how it is" not many people ever question it. The same goes for what women look for in men, many of them have that image of a man impressed upon them from birth. Their father is a strong man, their best friends father is tough man, on tv that beautiful women's husband is brave and has muscles that bulge. All the cool girls are dating the boys going for sports? I am not saying any of this is 100% but that is what builds it up. I think it is environment.

The same goes for cross-dressers... some do it for comfort but many present stereotypically or acceptably female because they want to feel and be perceived as female or feminine which requires choosing clothing, makeup, accessories, mannerisms that we perceive in our culture and how we grew up as being feminine and being for women.

Not sure if that helps or makes it more confusing...

[DeeDee1974]

I feel like you could apply many of these so called masculine traits to my wife. Then I wonder if this is why I am attracted to her? She is tough, brave, confident, assertive, dominant. She is a partner in a large consulting company. She also did something many successful men do - picked a much younger SO. She's 55 I'm 36.

[kitchenette]

There's a lot here to think about and react to... Yes, I would say generally if you are consuming mass media, these are the traits most associated with men.

From my own experience, I have never really followed a determined set of qualities I seek in a man. I just fall in love. Most men that I have been attracted to have been warm, caring, great communicators and funny. I have never been attracted to muscle-bound men, because I am not that concerned with physique. I'm more interested in what's inside.

Actually, one of the qualities that you brought up, BRAVERY, is one of the things I most admire about my Xdressing BF. His ability for self-reflection, desire to try to discover his feminine side and the whys and wherefores of crossdressing and then try to share that experience with me is incredibly brave...

This may be a hard line of questioning for the GGs here because, well, honestly, we are all here because of our association/relationship with the TGs/CDs in our lives. So, I would venture to say that many of us have a broader view of the meaning of "male." Another point to make is that I'm almost 40 and a parent. And the experience of being a mom, and knowing what it means to be a loving dad, probably also changes what you look for in a male mate.

I would say we could all profit from unplugging our televisions and disengaging from mass-media. Because it will make us all crazy about what roles we are "supposed" to play. Because in actuality, life is so much more interesting and subtle. I think we are all full of surprises.

What do you think?

[Zoe Dawn]

I'm no expert but as a GG I'll give you my ......

The same masculine and feminine qualities you mention are present in my SO regardless of what clothing is being worn.

I possess of the "masculine" traits you mentioned, but it's so loving, caring and sweet when my SO does the heavy lifting or uses his assertiveness to protect me.
I am more than capable of looking after myself but it's nice to feel cosseted and taken care of sometimes.

As for bravery, it takes bravery to open up and bare your inner self with your SO, regardless of how well you expect them to take it. It also takes bravery and daring to venture outside for the first time.

Inner toughness is something we all need to survive in this world, without it the world will walk all over you.

My belief is that these traits can be negative but it depends on the person.... a car can be a mode of transport or a weapon depending on the person driving.

Maybe I'm just lucky because my SO mixes both traits into a happy medium, strong and loving, tough and caring, assertive and nurturing regardless of the gender being presented.

[DonniDarkness]

hmmm, this is exactly what i was looking for in a woman....even before i was out of the closet to myself

Strong, tough, muscles, brave, daring, dominating, assertive,

Coming from my background and childhood, all the men were bikers in my family.....harleys, hog roasts and bail hearings.....now with that said all the women in my family were biker mommas....And all of the things you just mentioned

It took tough strong women to take care of us children when our fathers and uncles were doing another 30 days to 5 yrs for a crime. So growing up these things were what i admired the most about women.

Pythos, i know its slightly off-topic, but i just wanted to share my thoughts on this.

At the end of the day its all about perspective, You can be all of those things for her (minus the abuse), and still retain your feminine traits. We as feminine guys can be all of those things as well.

Just because we dont exude overcompensated masculinity does not mean that our subtle inner strength is not found attractive by women.

Another Friend in the Darkness,
-Donni-

[NicoleScott]

The answer is, in my opinion, this is how we as humans evolved. The predominately male traits you mentioned were part of the formula that enabled the family to succeed (survive) best. But not all human males possess all the traits, as not all animals follow the same formula. Female bears can be incredible brave when protecting her cubs from much larger males. That works for bears. As for muscles and strength, assertion and domination: testosterone.

[Pythos]

Donni,
I have to say I like your response. I am pretty sure my perspective is skewed. Skewed pretty bad to tell you the truth.

I am not at all impressed with the average male behavior.

As far as these are traits that helped families survive, yes this is true. But help them survive from what, after we left the caves? Usually other human beings, usually male, trying to take over what was not theirs. LOL

[Sparkles]

I'll reply but it won't do much good. I don't like "Jocks" I think they are controlling idiots, usually grow up to be drunks that can't keep a job. My "MAN" is protective, loving, sensitive and caring. Men would say he lost his "man card". I wouldn't have him any other way.

[Stitch]

I'll try my best to answer.

I don't think the traits you mentioned are exclusive to men, as reading them I realise that I actually seem to show them more than my boyfriend. Yet I see myself as feminine. Woman can and do exhibit these traits all the time, saying it as if their is some kind of stigma for women to even considering attempting to show any of these is daft. You also seem to have a problem with men. You've mixed every single trait with negativity. Not ever man who shows any sign of masculinity is as evil as you make out. There are bad nuts in ever group of people, but you shouldn't let the actions of a few taint your views of the rest. I have lots of male friends and it always makes me feel sad when people here talk about men in general as a hoard of grunting idiots. Are they not all individuals who should be judged as such?

In terms of physical strength partner definitely is strong. Far stronger than me and I will admit that I do find that attractive. Even if there are machines these days which are strong, a machine can't scoop you up while you giggle for a big cuddle. My boyfriend is one of the softest and gentlest men I know. I'm totally not into aggressive strength, but strength and softness are wonderful. Anyway, I might not be overly strong but I still lift what I can manage and do what I can do.

Toughness is a weird one. It's not a man's fault that their genitalia is so unprotected. You could flip it back the other way too. Women aren't exactly towering pillars of defence either. At the end of the day we are all fleshy meat sacks. As for toughness, I don't think its gender specific. It's just being able to look after yourself and weather out hard parts of your life.

Muscles. I like muscles to an extent. I'm not keen on people who are all muscles, in fact I like men who carry a little cuddle weight, but I do like muscled arms. They are wonderful for cuddling into. I don't necessary mean huge bulging biceps, just enough that when you touch his arm you can feel them underneath.
In today's day and age when so few people have physical jobs its nice to see someone going out of their way for a healthy body. My partner has muscles in his arms as he used to lift heavy boxes for a living. I am also building muscle at the moment through exercise as I'd like to be healthier.

Bravery. Bravery comes in many forms, and is not just a male trait.
Why do you care so much about people doing extreme sports anyway? Perhaps it is fool hardy, but it certainly is brave to look past your own fears and attempt something. I don't think they do it to "look more manly" I would imagine they just do it for themselves.

Dominating and assertiveness. I don't understand all this talk about dominate males and females. You either have a dominate personality or you don't. I am the more dominate person in our relationship. I'm the more aggressive, assertive and confident. I couldn't date a dominate personality, I'd just end up clashing with them, as I like to be the centre of attention.

My boyfriend will never be an alpha male or a "manly man" but I don't care. I don't need an alpha male to look after me. I wan't a man who balances out my weakness and reinforces my strengths and vice versa. My boyfriend does all these things. I am not big and strong but he is, I am prone to flights of fancy where as he thinks things through. I am loud and talkative where as he is quiet and thoughtful. I'm a positive person, where as he gets down easily so I help keep him cheerful. I am people smart, where as he is intelligent in a intellectual manner. (He's also hot! Lol)
He's the kindest gentlest person I've ever met, is hard working and honest and and has the most admirable traits that mankind has to offer. Don't get me wrong he isn't perfect by any means, but then we all have our flaws. I know mine well. Still I'd take on a bear for this man, because I love him, and that's what people who love each other do. They look after each other. We all just want someone who's got our backs. I know he's got mine.

[DemonicDaughter]

Sexism: 1. prejudice or discrimination based on sex; 2. behavior, conditions, or attitudes that foster stereotypes of social roles based on sex

Thanks for perpetuating it. Listen, if you don't identify as male, that's cool but it doesn't make them horrible people nor something vile to put down because you don't want to be one. The only things threads like this ever accomplish is making many responses sound more like feeble attempts at "proving" you aren't male. You don't need to and you don't need to justify who or what you are.

Who cares if some women like "manly men" when you feel you aren't one? Accept some women do and try to find one that doesn't. If you feel you MUST know the reasoning, can you do so without putting down men? Or is it in hopes of having more women join the discussion with male bashing? Several GGs on here date men who happen to enjoy a female appearance, so putting men down and discouraging the "masculine" would be putting their partners down as well.

Your choices in describing "masculine" can be said about today's modern women. That's rather the point of the feminist movement, that the sexes are equal and that the differences that do exist should be true ones, not ones projected on us by society. Of the traits you mentioned, only physical strength and aggressiveness are considered a testosterone specific result. Everything else is a matter of opinion and/or definition. Women are tough in their own right, dominating in their own way and can be just as brave as any man. None of those are exclusive by any means to the testosterone based hormones.

[Pythos]

To the last two posters.

READ

"First off, I need to ask, why do you accept these terms as being "masculine"? Why are these terms even considered manly? Why can't women exhibit these terms?"

also this:
"Brave: Now this one gets me. This is an honorable trait for ANYONE, not just men. However, in this forum we have what can be called very brave men, cause they go out in styles that for the most part would draw ridicule. Yet these men are not honored by society, instead they are shunned for the most part.

What exactly makes a man brave, cause aside from those fighting in this damned war, most of those things considered brave I often associate with fool hardy. Xtreme sports come to mind."

Please understand. I am not male bashing. I am male, and I DO NOT hate myself. I dislike much of what society expects of me due to the bits I was born with, but I do not HATE being a male. I do not want to be a woman. I do not think the grass is greener on the other side.

I wrote this post after I learned a friend of mine had been raped by her father, several times. Her father matches the NEGATVE descriptions of these traits, and yet the mother stayed with him. My mother was literally thrown by my father who also exhibited most of the bad side of these traits. I have had "masculine" imagery shoved in my face by the media, with characters like RAMBO, or Conan, along with Abusive Sports stars or music artist beating the crap out of their wives or lovers. You all did hear Mel Gibson's wonderful statements to his wife haven't you?

I appreciate most of the responses to this thread. But the last two showed that I was not clear with the initial post. I hope I was able to make my question a little more clear.

I know there are men out there that do not follow these negative traits. But many of them also do not fit the "manly man" description.

I was trying to get an understanding why women are attracted to men that exhibit the Negative examples of the above traits, and also why are these traits (both positive and negative) considered "manly" Why is another way of saying someone is brave is "Wow have they got balls?" Last I checked women do not have those organs.

[DemonicDaughter]

To the last two posters.

To Pythos... I wasn't responding ONLY to your post.

READ

Did, my original answer remains the same.

"First off, I need to ask, why do you accept these terms as being "masculine"? Why are these terms even considered manly? Why can't women exhibit these terms?"

I don't accept those terms as masculine, thus my reply as only two of them are specifically testosterone induced but not exclusive. Again, women do and thus aren't exclusively "manly" traits.

Please understand. I am not male bashing. I am male, and I DO NOT hate myself. I dislike much of what society expects of me due to the bits I was born with, but I do not HATE being a male. I do not want to be a woman. I do not think the grass is greener on the other side.

You weren't the ONLY person I was responding to but when you only point out the negative, it sure doesn't look like you like any aspect of being male, so perhaps you should state that in your posts about it as well.

I wrote this post after I learned a friend of mine had been raped by her father, several times. Her father matches the NEGATVE descriptions of these traits, and yet the mother stayed with him. My mother was literally thrown by my father who also exhibited most of the bad side of these traits. I have had "masculine" imagery shoved in my face by the media, with characters like RAMBO, or Conan, along with Abusive Sports stars or music artist beating the crap out of their wives or lovers. You all did hear Mel Gibson's wonderful statements to his wife haven't you?

Why not ask why men stay with abusive women if this isn't about male bashing? Why make it so gender specific? If its not just male traits but traits either gender displays then why add a specific pronoun to the post? And why ask just GGs originally? If this isn't a male bashing thread and you're trying to ask why someone would stay with anyone with negative traits, you have an odd way of showing it.

I appreciate most of the responses to this thread. But the last two showed that I was not clear with the initial post. I hope I was able to make my question a little more clear.

No, I got your original post immediately and still find that perpetuating society's stereotypes of males to be sexist.

I know there are men out there that do not follow these negative traits. But many of them also do not fit the "manly man" description.

Same is true for women. Its why stereotyping doesn't work.

I was trying to get an understanding why women are attracted to men that exhibit the Negative examples of the above traits, and also why are these traits (both positive and negative) considered "manly" Why is another way of saying someone is brave is "Wow have they got balls?" Last I checked women do not have those organs.

Why not ask why men stay with abusive women? Why would ANYONE stay with someone who displays negative traits? Perhaps because they love them. Perhaps because they believe they can change. Perhaps they don't feel they have another way out or that if they do they will be ruining more than just their own life. There are MILLIONS of reasons why anyone stays with someone else. You point out only their negative traits yet I'm sure the person staying sees the positive ones and thus stays.

It sounds more like you are trying to route out some other excuse for relationships working or not.

[Lorileah]

I was trying to get an understanding why women are attracted to men that exhibit the Negative examples of the above traits, and also why are these traits (both positive and negative) considered "manly" Why is another way of saying someone is brave is "Wow have they got balls?" Last I checked women do not have those organs.

(Glaring generalities follow and are in no way indicative of EVERY man or woman in the world)
That is fairly easy to answer. All the things that make a bad boy bad is what women looked for in a male for strength and security of millennia. Inverse is large hips and big breasts indicating a good mother (yeah right). It is very hard especially for males to break old habits. As this is a paternalistic society these things get more air time than what is probably really important. Even when a man isn't portrayed by muscle mass and physical prowess (I just watched Tom Cruise in the Last Samurai and let me tell you no matter how hard that guy tries he ain't no "Rock" Johnson) they are portrayed as aggressive arrogant asses (See Wall Street). Why? Because the guys are in charge and that is how they want to be seen (one wonders how many actually fit the mold). So as a young woman grows up and watches movies and television and reads novels and wishes to be just like the woman on the screen or in the main role, who do they see. Not the kind benevolent caring man (that is what OLD men become in those stories...kindly grandfather). They are programmed (indoctrinated ?) to believe they should be swept off their feet and "taken". It isn't true by any means but that is what Cinderella wants. Bad boys are more fun, more exciting and exactly what the women want in a bad boy is what they want to go away when they marry. Same with guys. Guys want the Barbie girl. Hot sexy, always made up, disproportionate, willing, coy, shy yet easy. Honestly what does Brittany Spears have that would make a man want to be with her forever? Yet guys drool all over her. But after you married someone like that would you want her out and about dressed like that making other men want her? It is society who make these judgments. And these things change very little over time but they have changed. As little as 100 years ago men liked women who were opposite of what is expounded now.

Muscle gives way to money in later life but it all comes down to protection and security, at least what the woman thinks she should want because that is how she was told it should be. There aren't many white chargers left in the world.

[DemonicDaughter]

(Glaring generalities follow and are in no way indicative of EVERY man or woman in the world)
That is fairly easy to answer. All the things that make a bad boy bad is what women looked for in a male for strength and security of millennia. Inverse is large hips and big breasts indicating a good mother (yeah right). It is very hard especially for males to break old habits. As this is a paternalistic society these things get more air time than what is probably really important. Even when a man isn't portrayed by muscle mass and physical prowess (I just watched Tom Cruise in the Last Samurai and let me tell you no matter how hard that guy tries he ain't no "Rock" Johnson) they are portrayed as aggressive arrogant asses (See Wall Street). Why? Because the guys are in charge and that is how they want to be seen (one wonders how many actually fit the mold). So as a young woman grows up and watches movies and television and reads novels and wishes to be just like the woman on the screen or in the main role, who do they see. Not the kind benevolent caring man (that is what OLD men become in those stories...kindly grandfather). They are programmed (indoctrinated ?) to believe they should be swept off their feet and "taken". It isn't true by any means but that is what Cinderella wants. Bad boys are more fun, more exciting and exactly what the women want in a bad boy is what they want to go away when they marry. Same with guys. Guys want the Barbie girl. Hot sexy, always made up, disproportionate, willing, coy, shy yet easy. Honestly what does Brittany Spears have that would make a man want to be with her forever? Yet guys drool all over her. But after you married someone like that would you want her out and about dressed like that making other men want her? It is society who make these judgments. And these things change very little over time but they have changed. As little as 100 years ago men liked women who were opposite of what is expounded now.

Muscle gives way to money in later life but it all comes down to protection and security, at least what the woman thinks she should want because that is how she was told it should be. There aren't many white chargers left in the world.

You know, I think that is a very honest answer and explains why I don't perceive things in the same manner as most of my peers. I haven't watched television since I was 16 years old and even when I did watch it as a child, it was extremly limited. The books I read were primarily non-fiction or the classics. I didn't watch many movies and thus was not influenced like many of my classmates. As an adult, I still don't watch television, I don't perceive movies as even remotely realistic and find most modern writers lack any real substance in their writings.

Thanks for an intelligent response.

[Samantha B L]

I'm an m to f CD and I also consider myself as having quite of few feminine traits and even being something of a sissy. I think there are inherited factors,maybe,which make me this way. I am decidedly a male even though I wanted to transition for a couple of years when I was younger. I can't say I see myself as a Lesbian either. I'm not muscle bound but I could stand to exercise more often and to lose 40 or 50 lbs.. I am clean shaven and recently I've decided to put more time and money into presenting as a CD or female. I watch all the dopey guy's violent movies on cable but mostly I actually watch them to laugh at the violent special effects which are fakey even with digital computerized technology. I do not watch these all the time and they can get awful boring after a half an hour. So I turn them off after awhile usually. I like sports a little bit but mainly for the sake of like 15-20 minutes exercise which I really need. I really like to be enfem with classical music. This post isn't intended as an eharmony listing. Or Mylife,Match or any of those others. I'm just saying that I've found that women aren't always interested in the "Manly Man". Sometimes they like guys who are clean shaven, a little bit intellectual and don't come in drunk at 5:00AM in the morning and beat the s__ out of them and the kids. I mean, I have nasal speech and I gesture like the women selling hoodies on QVC. I noticed this in home movies(kodak film not DVD's or VHS tape)way back when I was about 14. I've tried to correct this and make my voice sound deep and discourse without hand gestures because a lot of morons wouldn't think these things were manly! I finally decided who cares. For one thing many of these pretty people live lives that are very anticlimatic. A popstar can run out of hits after a year or two and a sports career can be over before you are 30! I think that it is possible many LGBT/TG/TS/CD characteristics and traits are inherited very possibly. You could do far worse. Each of us.

[NicoleScott]

.

But help them survive from what, after we left the caves? Usually other human beings, usually male, trying to take over what was not theirs. LOL

Sadly, this is the history of "civilized" man. You have, I want it, and I think I can take it from you. Land, women, food, gold, you name it.