Im Afraid

[Jonianne]

I'm not sure if this is the direction you want to take, but there is another path. While I believe it is true that the "desire" to crossdress will never contuniously stay gone, there are those who have chosen to ignore those desires and live a life without actually crossdressing. The ones that seem to be the most successful, are the ones that still accept that they are crossdressers and that it's not a bad thing, they just refuse to act on their desire due to whatever particular circumstance they have chosen to live in.

It's like a faithful priest or nun that denies allowing themselves to act on their normal desire for sex and marriage, but to focus their life on what they feel are higher causes. It obviously can be done, but it takes a lot of disclipine.

[Rianna Humble]

This will be long, so if you don't like reading detailed answers, please feel free to skip to the next post

I use the word "crossing" to suggest another perception on crossdressing. I use the term as the act of our spirit to cross over to the unknown world. To our world of instincts, impulses, and emotions.

I'm not sure I agree with your reasoning, but in the end whether you call it cross-dressing, transvestism, corssing or cream-cheese the activity remains the same, so I will use your term for the purposes of this reply.

The reason why im writing this is because I have been around this site and i seen middle-aged men and older men still crossing. Which is perfectly fine, whatever makes you happy. The thing that bothers me is that i see myself in your place. Which scares me. Not because im afraid of rejection or feel shame or guilt. I am genuinely scared.

Im scared of realizing that what i feel as "me" is somehow always wrong.

Thanks to other "spiritually minded" people, I spent decades believing that who I am was "wrong" so I can sympathise with you on that score. The long-term result of that was depression leading to thoughts of self-harm or self-termination.

When I came to realise that what I do is a result of who I am (not the other way around), I was faced with a choice - accept who I am and find out what that means, or reject who I am with the obvious conclusion.

I don't want to be in your position. Because i want to deal with the hardships of life as 1 not as two. I don't want a different personality to get certain things from the world (attention, love, affection) just because the other is incapable of doing it. I want it to be all through one....ME! Not a side, Not a gender, but the androgynous ME!

I may occasionally refer to myself in terms of two people, but I have only ever been one. Every person is multi-faceted, so I believe that your attempt to reject different sides of who you are is not helpful. You will not act the same when you are at a rock concert as you would at a funeral. Does that make what you are doing wrong? If you are ONE person, with no sides, shouldn't you behave the same in all circumstances?

And if im still crossing at thirty then i feel what im writing now is empty.

How you view that at thirty will depend on your viewpoint at that age. You may feel that your reasoning was empty, or you may feel that there was truth behind what you wrote but it was only as complete as your life-experience to date. IMNSHO, no-one's life experience is ever complete for as long as they live and if we keep an open mind we can learn from others and from new experiences whether we be 16 or 116 (I am neither of those two ages).

My beliefs at age 54 are different to those I held at age 20. Does that mean that what I believed at age twenty was empty? Or does it mean that I have acquired new life experiences since then that have shed new light on my beliefs? Some things haven't changed fundamentally - such as my belief in the need for fairness, respect for others, and equality of opportunity for all or the fact that the team I support are still the greatest team in the world for me.

I have purged before. Each time different, in a different light. The last time was after a horrible birthday followed by couple of hours of crying/sleep intervals. It was then i realized that it is my younger self which needs to be loved. I crossed because i was incapable of loving myself since no one loved me. So i gave my younger self an illusion.

I hope I am wrong, but I feel that you are in danger of trying to make the facts fit the theory rather than examining whether your theory fits the facts.

Im an adult now (early twenties) and i can't willingly and consciously divulge in fantasies, in illusions anymore.

If you are absolutely positive that "crossing" is only a fantasy, you will have no difficulty in putting it away forever. From what you write, you have tried and failed more than once. Does that not tell you anything other than that the facts don't fit?

I have a few questions:

Did you ever think that you will never cross again? If so how many times? And how sure were you? What was your reasoning behind it?

How did it grow to be a bigger and bigger part of your life? When did you name her? Why?

Do you ever feel "spiritually" trapped by the clothes?

Rather then feeling guilty/shame afterwards do you ever feel empty?

I never went through the cycles of splurge and purge that many others here have been through. From time to time I would secretly borrow an article of clothing from someone and dress. Every time, I felt a great sense of peace until I remembered that the "spiritually-minded" people had told me that I was wrong, then I would feel guilt, never shame.

This grew to be a bigger part of me when I decided that rather than reject who I am, I would accept myself and choose to live.
When I joined this website, I still needed to hide my male identity to avoid causing extreme difficulties and mental anguish to certain people who I hold dear. I asked myself what my name would be if I were a woman and the name I have now seemed to fit me like a glove.

this philosophy that people on this site hold might do harm to us younger kids who might have different reasons for doing it.

This site doesn't hold any philosophy - it is an inanimate thing. The people on this site have a philosophy that allows them to support other people who cross-dress or who are friends/family/significant others of those who do. To say that this support can be harmful betrays either a lack of understanding of what support is or a crass attitude to those who try to help here. I hope that in your case it is the former.

you ever wonder if there are any straight gay guys just like there are gay straight guys?

I believe that you are confusing gender and sexuality. In relation to whether someone is gay or not, the term straight is normally used to mean heterosexual (men or women) and gay to mean homosexual (men). This being so, your proposition that there might be "straight gay guys" and "gay straight guys" makes no sense at all. How can you have a heterosexual homosexual or a homosexual heterosexual?

I believe that you are asking whether some cross-dressers may be hetero and some not. The answer to that is definitely yes there are some of each and also some bisexual cross-dressers, but their gender presentation is totally separate from their sexuality.

Please take the time to reflect on what is behind your fears. I get the distinct feeling from your posts in this thread that you are trying to reason your way out of accepting yourself for who you are and that part of the cause of this is that from a "spiritual" point of view you believe that to be other than cisgendered is morally wrong. As soon as you try to graft morality onto what for many (if not for all) is a product of their innermost being you begin to put an artificial straight-jacket onto yourself and those you so judge.

Others have commented on your question about where are the contributions from those who have stopped cross-dressing. There may be some for whom cross-dressing was a phase in their life-experience. I have never met any and I would not expect them to continue contributing to a support site for those who are cross-dressers, transsexuals, friends and loved-ones. There is no judgement intended in that statement.

[ruroken]

Well the article says that it's only anima theory that suggests that it may be the case that the urge diminishes. I wonder if Jung actually witnessed that happening, or if it's just a part of the theory? Which incidentally was highly speculative anyway (anima and animus are constructs of the theory and don't exist in reality, a lot like Freud's id, ego and superego).

People can only really talk about their experiences, and it seems that for most crossdressers they purge and then un-purge. This is also in the literature. It may well be that you can stop it or grow out of it or what have you. I'd say that the healthiest way would be to try more to integrate the feminine side of you into your normal existence, sure. That's definitely got to be better than throwing all your clothes away as an expression of the shame and guilt you feel about what you are doing. Can it be done though? I'm not convinced.

Am I right in thinking that your negative feelings towards crossdressing are that you don't really want to picture yourself as a middle aged crossdresser? Maybe you should focus less on the future, it's a bit of a trap. When I was 19 I was supposed to be a multimillionaire by the time I hit 35, but here I am and I'm basically skint ...

No thats not my fear, thats just what the surface looks like to someone looking in. What im afraid of is needing crossing when im thirty. So far in my life it has helped me grow-no doubt about that. But i also think that i have to let it go in order to move on in life and become my "self." And it is this "self" i want to become. not out of shame or guilt because i genuenly believe its better then either my male or female side. Clothing are the vehicle for your anima (female side), they are not the thing it self. I just hope i don't need the vehicle, since in the end my anima is my"self". So i look at the physical act of dress as a crutch to get what i need. I should be able to BE all the time. rather then sometimes only with a dress on. And to be your "self" to BE both male/female at the same time. The unifcation of both sides.

So i look at the physical act of dress when im thirty as a failure to realize this higher and more balanced state.

And that part that i "bolded" actually happened to me. I went through all those stages and i completley understand the theory. And yes its still a theory because my situation is different then others. I am an artist and i can express myself pretty damn good. I draw and when i draw i see all sides of me. and i see that my female side is only one side of, not the whole thing.

I look at crossing as a mother who is too afraid to let go of her child and a child too afraid to let go of his mom (all in one) because he is scared of the harsh realities of life. That love is not easy to get. You wount be a millionaire. Im not gonna be famous. Life is sufferring and i want to find the beauty in my sufferring rather then give myself an illusion to occupy my mind while life moves on and i waste away.

[ruroken]

This will be long, so if you don't like reading detailed answers, please feel free to skip to the next post

Thanks to other "spiritually minded" people, I spent decades believing that who I am was "wrong" so I can sympathise with you on that score. The long-term result of that was depression leading to thoughts of self-harm or self-termination.

When I came to realise that what I do is a result of who I am (not the other way around), I was faced with a choice - accept who I am and find out what that means, or reject who I am with the obvious conclusion.

I might be just picking bones here but thats not what i meant as "wrong" as if my being is "wrong" and "unmoral." what i meant was that the being that i am and all the understanding that has gone with it and all the pushes and pulls and the ups and downs and expressions and repressions has led me to this moment. to where i am now and where i am is in a state where i don't need "dressing" and it has beome empty to a large extent, not by repression but through EXPRESSION.

By "wrong" i meant that all this might somehow still be "wrong" (not morally or spirtually) and that fear only exists for two reasons one is my own impulse and the other because of the philosophy "it always comes back"

How you view that at thirty will depend on your viewpoint at that age. You may feel that your reasoning was empty, or you may feel that there was truth behind what you wrote but it was only as complete as your life-experience to date. IMNSHO, no-one's life experience is ever complete for as long as they live and if we keep an open mind we can learn from others and from new experiences whether we be 16 or 116 (I am neither of those two ages).

My beliefs at age 54 are different to those I held at age 20. Does that mean that what I believed at age twenty was empty? Or does it mean that I have acquired new life experiences since then that have shed new light on my beliefs? Some things haven't changed fundamentally - such as my belief in the need for fairness, respect for others, and equality of opportunity for all or the fact that the team I support are still the greatest team in the world for me.

i agree about that whole viewpoint thing.

the emptiness is think on different things. It would be empty in my case because whats behind me now is "will" and your (im guessing) was just a view point of life. Im not saying that is empty, just my "will"

I hope I am wrong, but I feel that you are in danger of trying to make the facts fit the theory rather than examining whether your theory fits the facts.

You are. and what happened on my birthday had nothing to do with crossing ( i think i hadnt dressed for months at that point) it was another incident on realted because i was chasing a fantasy and reality came and hit me pretty hard.

If you are absolutely positive that "crossing" is only a fantasy, you will have no difficulty in putting it away forever. From what you write, you have tried and failed more than once. Does that not tell you anything other than that the facts don't fit?

But your assuming that a person can't grow. Just because you didnt understand something at 20, 22, 24 doesnt mean your not gonna understand it at 25 or 26 or 54.

Its a fantasy because i only chase the next big thing. And everytime i did that next big thing i got used to and i had to construct another big thing to chase. First it was just panties then i got bored and went clothes and got bored and started to shop and got bored started to dress out but got bored had sex with a guy but got bored. And everytime i went to something bigger it always became empty after a certain time. which is a fantasy because i could never grasp what i was chasing. because what i was chasing was my past, my "self" in disguise.

This site doesn't hold any philosophy - it is an inanimate thing. The people on this site have a philosophy that allows them to support other people who cross-dress or who are friends/family/significant others of those who do. To say that this support can be harmful betrays either a lack of understanding of what support is or a crass attitude to those who try to help here. I hope that in your case it is the former.

I might have jumped the gun on that one. sorry.

I believe that you are confusing gender and sexuality. In relation to whether someone is gay or not, the term straight is normally used to mean heterosexual (men or women) and gay to mean homosexual (men). This being so, your proposition that there might be "straight gay guys" and "gay straight guys" makes no sense at all. How can you have a heterosexual homosexual or a homosexual heterosexual?

I believe that you are asking whether some cross-dressers may be hetero and some not. The answer to that is definitely yes there are some of each and also some bisexual cross-dressers, but their gender presentation is totally separate from their sexuality.

Haha no im not. not at all. OKAY! you know how some guys think there straight but with time they find out they are gay. Have you ever wondered is there are some guys who think they are gay and with time they find out they are straight?

Please take the time to reflect on what is behind your fears. I get the distinct feeling from your posts in this thread that you are trying to reason your way out of accepting yourself for who you are and that part of the cause of this is that from a "spiritual" point of view you believe that to be other than cisgendered is morally wrong. As soon as you try to graft morality onto what for many (if not for all) is a product of their innermost being you begin to put an artificial straight-jacket onto yourself and those you so judge.

You completley misunderstood me. i think its my fault. My spirtuality is not tied to a religion. Not to some church or some belief that my family has held for generations. I dont believe that crossing is immoral or a "sin"... thats just what you have been fed. My spirtuality is about truth. About accepting life as it is. Not MY life but LIFE... as in ALL OF EXISTENCE

Others have commented on your question about where are the contributions from those who have stopped cross-dressing. There may be some for whom cross-dressing was a phase in their life-experience. I have never met any and I would not expect them to continue contributing to a support site for those who are cross-dressers, transsexuals, friends and loved-ones. There is no judgement intended in that statement.

Don't get me wrong i really appreciate all you guys talking about this. Im here to understand your perspectives/lives/and philosophy. and in order to do that i have to express what i feel and if anybody points out to me that i am some how wrong or running away i want to deal with that head on and express what i have learned and see where that leads.

I will truthfully look at myself with honesty because what im for isnt "safety and security" but the chaos of the "truth"

[ruroken]

I'm not sure if this is the direction you want to take, but there is another path. While I believe it is true that the "desire" to crossdress will never contuniously stay gone, there are those who have chosen to ignore those desires and live a life without actually crossdressing. The ones that seem to be the most successful, are the ones that still accept that they are crossdressers and that it's not a bad thing, they just refuse to act on their desire due to whatever particular circumstance they have chosen to live in.

It's like a faithful priest or nun that denies allowing themselves to act on their normal desire for sex and marriage, but to focus their life on what they feel are higher causes. It obviously can be done, but it takes a lot of disclipine.

But im not denying. What i get from crossing is a subsitute of love and presence. A mother. All i want to do is have REAL love and presence in all its unperfectedness. (not sure if thats a word). And not from the outside but from the inside. I want REAL love from myself rather then a constructed subsitute of love from myself.

[Emily Ann Brown]

Too much thinking...it's like being at work...YUCK!

My tale is...learn to love your self and figure out who you are, then go for it!!! I did. The going for it costs me a lot. But I AM happy!

Have I even walked away from who I am? Twice. Will I do it again? Not on your life!

I am a woman who crossdresses for a paycheck, but they know who I am.


Em

[msniki48]

you little monster you!!! [ very cute! you always know how to take it to the base.

thats why i love you so much!

hugs

[ruroken]

Too much thinking...it's like being at work...YUCK!

My tale is...learn to love your self and figure out who you are, then go for it


Em

im not thinking....im expressing

lets replace "thinking" with "expressing"

How do you "figure out" who you are without "expressing"? And when its your truth thats at stake... can you really "express" too much? or will you "express" just enough until you find out who you are?

thats what im doing. And trust me this is the most "expressing" i have done in two and 1/2 days in my life.

[Kelly DeWinter]

AHA! Found it.

"article about crossdressing"





never read this article before...

and it was this that i am trying to convey. If somebody comes to you at this stage of his crossing do you just tell him that he needs to accept his crossing and give in?

"Its okay if you feel shame and guilt."
"Don't hate that part of you."
"just accept yourself"

There is definitely a dogma attached to certain people's philosophy. its as if that group constantly negates the idea that you can actually "grow out of it" by accepting "it always returns" and spreading that philosophy around. And it was that which scared me. As someone who is young and has much less experience in life i am liable to listen to older person's words and especially about a topic such as this.

When i started yesterday it was this inevitable truth that scared me. That there were/are people who have thought of this as over but always returned. You have no defense/offense for that. And because your left in the middle the fear of not knowing becomes bigger and bigger. And no body can give you a good perspective. All the perspectives are coming from one side and some are even dogmatic.

I hear a lot of "worry","fear of","scared" in your posts . I think by reading past posts by other people here you will find the ultimate peace that the TG/CD gals can find is when they accept themselves for who they are, not "what" other percieve them to be.

[Jonianne]

.....I want REAL love from myself rather then a constructed subsitute of love from myself.

If you do not know how to give REAL love to yourself, then learn how by "letting in" and "receiving" the love and caring all of us and others around you are trying to give you. It doesn't matter what the advice is, it's the fact that we are trying to show caring. Let that sink in and know that you are NOT alone.

Untill you choose to do that, you cannot learn to love yourself.

A good book resource is "Celebrate Yourself" by Dorothy Corkille Briggs.

"I find my reflection in all those around, where inner connection so longed for is found" by Aliciaweb
http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/...t=#post1584489

[Reggie Campion]

I never feel empty, guilt are shame its like i'm missing something. I too do not want to go tho the world as 2 different people yet that is what i do.
The clothes don't make me who i am its what do that does.

I just started dressing after ten years of not. The quote above says it all for me.
Reggie

[ruroken]

If you do not know how to give REAL love to yourself, then learn how by "letting in" and "receiving" the love and caring all of us and others around you are trying to give you. It doesn't matter what the advice is, it's the fact that we are trying to show caring. Let that sink in and know that you are NOT alone.

Untill you choose to do that, you cannot learn to love yourself.

A good book resource is "Celebrate Yourself" by Dorothy Corkille Briggs.

"I find my reflection in all those around, where inner connection so longed for is found" by Aliciaweb
http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/...t=#post1584489

ummmm...........i think you just gave me the answer. You guys are not getting in what respect i am trying to have this discussion. All you see/hear/ and feel from my posts is a mirror image of yourself and what you went through.

And i can't accept myself as a female in the same way i can't acccept myself as JUST male. They both are "PART" of me, not ME. I "DO" accept myself but my "self" without a gender, the in between.

And i do have a hard time letting love in, basically because i don't know how. But getting "love" from internet users who are communicating by digital messaging from around the country/world is a little hard i have to say.

But YES I do have to love myself. And im getting better at that. I'll start with the person closest to me (myself) and work my way out.

And AGAIN dont get me wrong. i do appreciate you guys talking.... im sure its getting a little annoying...

[TinaMc]

No thats not my fear, thats just what the surface looks like to someone looking in. What im afraid of is needing crossing when im thirty. So far in my life it has helped me grow-no doubt about that. But i also think that i have to let it go in order to move on in life and become my "self." And it is this "self" i want to become. not out of shame or guilt because i genuenly believe its better then either my male or female side. Clothing are the vehicle for your anima (female side), they are not the thing it self. I just hope i don't need the vehicle, since in the end my anima is my"self". So i look at the physical act of dress as a crutch to get what i need. I should be able to BE all the time. rather then sometimes only with a dress on. And to be your "self" to BE both male/female at the same time. The unifcation of both sides.

So i look at the physical act of dress when im thirty as a failure to realize this higher and more balanced state.

And that part that i "bolded" actually happened to me. I went through all those stages and i completley understand the theory. And yes its still a theory because my situation is different then others. I am an artist and i can express myself pretty damn good. I draw and when i draw i see all sides of me. and i see that my female side is only one side of, not the whole thing.

I look at crossing as a mother who is too afraid to let go of her child and a child too afraid to let go of his mom (all in one) because he is scared of the harsh realities of life. That love is not easy to get. You wount be a millionaire. Im not gonna be famous. Life is sufferring and i want to find the beauty in my sufferring rather then give myself an illusion to occupy my mind while life moves on and i waste away.

I think you are just trying too hard and really overthinking the whole thing. It's not a big deal if you want to crossdress, and it's not a big deal if you don't. Crossdressing or not isn't indicative of achieving a higher balanced state, it just means you like to wear women's clothes. It could be due to your relationship with your family, it might not. Either way, from my own perspective I enjoy it and have a bit of fun escapism through it. It's not really a bigger deal than watching a movie or having a few drinks or whatever. Life is a journey, not a destination...

[Jonianne]

ummmm...........i think you just gave me the answer. You guys are not getting in what respect i am trying to have this discussion. All you see/hear/ and feel from my posts is a mirror image of yourself and what you went through.

Exactly. That is what the root word relate means in a relationship. We relate to each other by trying to find common experiences. FEEDBACK is what you use to help someone understand a little better each time you relate, which is what you are doing when you respond.

And i can't accept myself as a female in the same way i can't acccept myself as JUST male. They both are "PART" of me, not ME. I "DO" accept myself but my "self" without a gender, the in between.

I, too, believe our true "selves" do not have gender. Gender happens when a body and mind is added to a soul. In that body and mind, there is some of both genders.

And i do have a hard time letting love in, basically because i don't know how. But getting "love" from internet users who are communicating by digital messaging from around the country/world is a little hard i have to say.

Every thing inbetween people is a medium. Whether it's the internet, wireless cell phones, radio, wired telephones, the air in a room passing sounds called words when you are with people and even your body when someone gives you a hug, is a medium between the inner you and the inner other person.

If you don't believe love and help can pass through the medium of the internet, why are you here, reaching out?

But YES I do have to love myself. And im getting better at that. I'll start with the person closest to me (myself) and work my way out.

That's good that you are getting better at loving yourself, but it is amplified and increases faster when you interact in a relationship with others, giving and receiving. Focusing on the ego-centric will only make progress much slower, IMHO. Keep reaching out, you receive love as you give love.

[ruroken]

If you don't believe love and help can pass through the medium of the internet, why are you here, reaching out?

Because im trying to pick apart the sterotype of a crossdresser. Before i saw everybody as one big thing so im here to express and see how others express and learn a about myself and as well as you.

[Rianna Humble]

My spirtuality is about truth. About accepting life as it is. Not MY life but LIFE... as in ALL OF EXISTENCE

I'm sorry, I don't see that reflected in anything you have written so far. You reject our life experiences as being without value and harmful on some scale that you have invented. That is not accepting life or "all of existence".

It may be I who am at fault here, but to communicate, we need to find common language and I don't seem to be able to do that with you.

About the only thing that we seem able to agree is that if there are people who have successfully stopped needing to cross-dress, they do not come here to share the secret and thus support the people you claim are being harmed by us.

[johnboy23]

I am not two people. I am one. I do not fix myself up with make up and wigs, nor do I act very feminine. I do , however, dress feminine, but I am still a man in my man form. I like to think I am gender bending a little more so than crossdressing. I think people understand the term gender bending more than crossdressing.

[ruroken]

I'm sorry, I don't see that reflected in anything you have written so far. You reject our life experiences as being without value and harmful on some scale that you have invented. That is not accepting life or "all of existence".

It may be I who am at fault here, but to communicate, we need to find common language and I don't seem to be able to do that with you.

About the only thing that we seem able to agree is that if there are people who have successfully stopped needing to cross-dress, they do not come here to share the secret and thus support the people you claim are being harmed by us.

im sorry if you can't see that but i havent tried to communicate my "spirtuality"...thats just a word. And it means something different to everybody based on their life's experiences. samething with god and love....

and i did not reject and claim that your (our) life experiences are harmful in anyway or that they hold no value....in fact the opposite is true. I think crossing is very valuable in the growth of your "self"

I just jumped the gun on saying that the dogma of "becomming female in appearance is what everybody who has crossed should be doing" and "if your not then your running away from yourself"....could be harmful..... Mainly because some people might actually be running TO themselves by not crossing.... and its not always true that everybody who chooses not to dress is neccessarly running away from themselves....(i jumped the gun....i apologize again) but that is the problem i have with the crossdressing community..... which exists partly because of the insecurities that i harbor(ED) and partly because it actually exists.

AND YES! not everybody believes that here so please don't pick bones about this.

im just assuming here but i think talking to people face to face with a voice and body language is a better communication then mere words. Because people misinterpret words much easier (since its our voice reading these words) and im sorry that i came off as not accepting and negative in some way....BUT I ASSURE YOU.... I AM NOT....