Boys night out

[DebsUK]

I went out with some guys I know from the gym the other day. Now, most of my classes are aerobics with mainly women, but I also do Boxercise which is far more macho but also quite a social group. One of our former instructors is a world champion body builder, but actually quite a decent guy for that. But some of the other guys were horrendous. I mean there attitude was awful to women. One guy in particular was bragging about his forays with prostitutes, then proceeded to show us a video on his phone of him with a woman. I really felt out of place, me with my newly softer and longer hiarstyle and lick of transparent mascara. It really was my idea of Hell, the combination of contempt for women (hey! I'm one of them sometimes, in my head at least) and too much testosterone.

Does anyone else think like this? I mean a lot of non-CDing men would probably agree, but from a TG POV it's torture

[JiveTurkeyOnRye]

Yeah, someone definitely has issues with not understanding boundaries, I'd be disgusted if someone just whipped out their phone and showed me footage of them having sex, regardless of my gender identity. Once my brother showed me a particularly disgusting video on his phone that he'd found online or someone had sent to him and I actually told him to never show me something like that again.

[Kaz]

Agree completely, though in boy mode I always found it hard to join in and I guess sorted out who I got on with whom I didn't!

In the generally assumed analogies on this, this makes me definately not an alpha male and thereby totally undesirable to fairer sex! This hasn't totally been the course of my life thank goodness, but let's face it... if women want alpha males... that is the deal!

[Debglam]

I went out with some guys I know from the gym the other day. Now, most of my classes are aerobics with mainly women, but I also do Boxercise which is far more macho but also quite a social group. One of our former instructors is a world champion body builder, but actually quite a decent guy for that. But some of the other guys were horrendous. I mean there attitude was awful to women. One guy in particular was bragging about his forays with prostitutes, then proceeded to show us a video on his phone of him with a woman. I really felt out of place, me with my newly softer and longer hiarstyle and lick of transparent mascara. It really was my idea of Hell, the combination of contempt for women (hey! I'm one of them sometimes, in my head at least) and too much testosterone.

Does anyone else think like this? I mean a lot of non-CDing men would probably agree, but from a TG POV it's torture

Absolutely Debs. I've been in similar situations many times and I always thought that guys like that have some other "issue" they were dealing with. I never made a connection though between CD'ing and feeling that only a**holes treat women, or anyone else for that matter, with such disrespect. Again, when I would hear a guy bragging about his exploits or talking about treating women like crap, I always thought that it was compensation for????

Agree completely, though in boy mode I always found it hard to join in and I guess sorted out who I got on with whom I didn't!

In the generally assumed analogies on this, this makes me definately not an alpha male and thereby totally undesirable to fairer sex! This hasn't totally been the course of my life thank goodness, but let's face it... if women want alpha males... that is the deal!

Kaz, I don't think that most women consider a guy like that the "alpha male." A d*uchebag by any other name. . .

[Karren H]

The other guys on my ice hockey are not like that at all... We have one woman player and she is treated with respect and is one of us... There are three brothers on the team and they kiss lip to lip when ever they great each other... We come from all different backgrounds and I'm always amazed how wonderful it is to be on their team... We aren't the best team but we all have a great time and enjoy each others company... They have seen my hairless body for years... Pink stick tape, womens hockey shorts, mini-mouse towel and no one has ever said a thing derogatory...

Not your average pumped up male ego team!!

[Steph.TS]

the guys make fun of me for not having 'lived' I don't drink hard liquor, I don't watch porn or anything like that, and I'm even easy on the swearing... the were at one point suggesting having a boys night out with drinking and porn, and I felt very uncomfortable witht he direction of the conversation.

as a male I've always been the outsider, so I've just focussed on computers I would like to feel part of the group but generally that doesn't happen and I've made my piece with that.

[LisaM]

I feel the same way at times although I rarely put myself into a social situation with a bunch of heavy testosterone guys. It does make me recognize how different I feel about my gender than most 'real guys'.

[Kelly DeWinter]

the guys make fun of me for not having 'lived' I don't drink hard liquor, I don't watch porn or anything like that, and I'm even easy on the swearing... the were at one point suggesting having a boys night out with drinking and porn, and I felt very uncomfortable witht he direction of the conversation.

as a male I've always been the outsider, so I've just focussed on computers I would like to feel part of the group but generally that doesn't happen and I've made my piece with that.

Wow,

You sound so much like me ! How close to Maryland are you ?

[Sophie86]

if women want alpha males... that is the deal!

Really? I'm trying to imagine George Washington doing something like that, but I'm not succeeding. Is that because he wasn't an alpha male, or is it because the standards for being an alpha male have really dropped in the past 200 hundred years? I'm gonna go with the latter. I think we all have a right to expect more of men, whether they're in touch with their feminine side or not. They can at least be in touch with their honor.

[Steph.TS]

Wow,

You sound so much like me ! How close to Maryland are you ?

Southern Alberta I'm afraid.

[sissystephanie]

I don't think I would qualify as an Alpha male in the strict sense, but I was married to the same lady for almost 50 years and we raised 2 wonderful children. Oh yes, she also fully supported my crossdressing activities. But I was raised with the idea that honor always came first. I have been out with groups of men such as described in the first post. But only once!! I do not tolerate that kind of behaviour when I am around, and all my real friends know it. And they know I will kick a** if it happens!! I may not be very big, and I am older than a lot of you, but I can be very mean and hurtful thanks to all the training I have had!

Sophi is very right. We should all expect more from men, who should always be in touch with their honor!!

[JohnH]

When I allowed my feminine side to develop I no longer have the appetite for pornography (e.g., Youporn.com). I identify with women more as fellow human beings instead of sexual objects, and so I find pornography now to be disgusting.

[Debglam]

Really? I'm trying to imagine George Washington doing something like that, but I'm not succeeding. Is that because he wasn't an alpha male, or is it because the standards for being an alpha male have really dropped in the past 200 hundred years? I'm gonna go with the latter. I think we all have a right to expect more of men, whether they're in touch with their feminine side or not. They can at least be in touch with their honor.

Well said. I REALLY think that this is more than a gender issue. It is an issue of honor and character. You either treat people decently and with respect or you don't. I guess sometimes the best "man" is the one wearing the dress!

[ReineD]

but let's face it... if women want alpha males... that is the deal!

Speaking for myself, the alpha males described in this thread seem boorish. I'd much rather spend time with someone who can talk intelligently about a variety of topics than some lout who grunts, scratches a lot, and smells like stale beer. lol.

To everyone: where are all these apes I keep reading about in here? Surely there are men around who don't behave like this? There must be men who respect women? Maybe it is a question of education and maturity and it would just take hanging out with a different group of men in order to not put yourselves in these situations?

Or maybe these apish sorts behave so badly, they stand out to the point of eclipsing in your minds all the other decent men that are out there?

Just wondering.

[eluuzion]

I have successfully managed to eliminate most of those folks from my sandbox. Unfortunately, they will never completely die out, just like cockroaches, they seem to always survive the intelligence cutoff level. We just have to remember not to encourage them. Same strategy we used in elementary school. Or, is that where you ran into them?...lol.

I typically just show disinterest and steer myself into something productive, hoping for some imprinting to engage.

I am a firm believer that many times the only noticeable difference between a child and some adults...is height....adults are typically taller...

hey, at least they don't have that stuff on the internet...we would really be in trouble then, huh?

[Rachel Morley]

It really was my idea of Hell, the combination of contempt for women (hey! I'm one of them sometimes, in my head at least) and too much testosterone. Does anyone else think like this?

Yep .... every single time! If I ever hear that type of conversation (say I'm at work) I never partake in it and I always find a reason to leave the room (like say a restroom break).

[Starling]

I think true alpha men tend to be strong but gentle, kind but firm, and they know how to defuse uncomfortable and/or distasteful situations with grace and discretion. They also protect and provide for those who depend on them. These are all qualities which foster wordly success, as well as respect and love.

I admire men who fit that description, and enjoy being around them, especially if women are also present--as they so often are around attractive men. They're the kind of men I'd like to be, if I were a man.

Lallie

[Pythos]

I have faced some barbs on this site due to my view of typical male behavior. The OP is a grand example of just the kind of stuff I have experienced when it comes to men and male behavior. I absolutely hate it. When I refer to typical males, I refer to what is known as "average joe" not fellow goths, or people of that ilk.

But the men I have worked with made me sick. The conversations and pure disrespect of women that was rampant was really saddening. This has unfortunately been the examples I have had sadly. My view of men has been pretty permanently damaged by this "borrish" behavior.

Reine D. All you need to do is watch the typical Axe body spray ads. Talk about demeaning to all involved.

You have been blessed to not encounter this type of person day in and day out. I have encountered my fill.

by the way, I tried the disengaging tactic only to have it fail miserably. LOL. There was just no getting away from it.

[Nick2Nikki]

I suppose I'm lucky that I don't have to deal with this sort of behavior very often. When I do see it, I'm usually not that bothered by it, and tend to just dismiss it and go about my business. If other people want to be jerks, let them be jerks. Disengaging tactics usually work well enough for me, and I am skilled enough at verbal swordplay and my hide is thick enough for me to not worry about much.

I find that behavior gross and unappealing, but then again I notice some of those behaviors in women as much as I do men. Make no mistake, people can be and are vile creatures regardless of time, place, sex, or race.

I'm rambling, and I don't think that I made any sort of point in this post, so please don't take it too seriously. It's 5AM here, and I think the NyQuil is starting to kick in; I'm too tired to try and make my post make sense.

[Charlena]

Hi Debs, I had a similar situation about a month ago. A few of us (4 or 5) varies get together to sing and play guitar. I use a capo up two frets because in my true voice I sing a little higher than most men, First one of them told me to get rid of my capo, then as testosterone started to pickup I felt more and more like I did not belong. Usually there is a lady or two present and that usually keeps things in check. Anyway I finally excused my self and on the way home I had to pull off the road and I just started to cry. As I progress towards my true self I just can not wear the mask any longer. I will go back and I will take my capo, my friends are all good men but I just can't relate to a lot of their ways. Peace to you, Charlena.

[Michelle8]

I agree with all of you.I have a hard time relating to men now that I experience it from the other side.
I get along with women so much easier.you can never let feelings get in the way or you will face
ridicule.

[JohnH]

I know the feeling of getting along with women. When I go for a walk I have a much easier time striking up a conversation with women than I do with men. I feel a confrontational aspect with a lot of men that they do not want to open up.

On an interesting note:
It's a lot easier to put a capo on a guitar to raise the pitch than it is to lower it. My singing voice is about half an octave lower than the usual man's voice and my speaking voice is somewhere around 90 Hz instead of the usual 125 Hz of a typical man's voice.

Johanna

[ReineD]

Reine D. All you need to do is watch the typical Axe body spray ads. Talk about demeaning to all involved.

I hear what you're saying, and I don't mean to dismiss your experience and the experience of others. Maybe I've just inured myself to some men's behaviors, or when I do see it, I take it as just a bit of posturing since I know that these men change their tunes when they go home to their wives and girlfriends.

I find that behavior gross and unappealing, but then again I notice some of those behaviors in women as much as I do men. Make no mistake, people can be and are vile creatures regardless of time, place, sex, or race.

I've also become offended when exposed to bigoted remarks in general by both men and women, and it's hard for me to keep quiet since doing so would imply that I agree with them. I've found that when I do call someone up on their bigotry, they seldom are able to defend it. And they seldom bring up the topic again when I'm around.

[DebsUK]

I love the discussion this thread has sparked. For what it's worth, in regard to my initial post, I've never felt remotely comfortable in that sort of environment as it goes against so much I actually believe in, but right now when I'm trying to integrate my femme side makes it all the worse.

It's not all about attitude to women, or even macho males. At a TV support group last year near where I live the conversation was hardly stimulating to begin with, being about such arch girly topics as old cars and fishing, but someone threw a racist slur into the mix which I took deep offence to. The evening then descended into an argument with me against the 8 or so regulars who all agreed with the person who started it. Now, you might have expected a trans support group to actually be quite tolerant, but I was obviously mistaken. I didn't bother going again. This is partly to blame for my 9 months off-phase