A question about BDSM and Crossdressing\tg\ts ?

[DaphneGrey]

First I want to mention that I realize I ask a lot of direct questions. And very often they are not comfortable for many to answer. I also understand that sometimes I come across as a bit of bitch. For this I am sorry, I really do not want to offend anyone with the questions I ask. I am genuinely curious and interested in understanding the things I see and read on the forum. Oh and I am really sweet in a Jersey kind of way

So here is my question in two parts:

For those of you that are interested in BDSM. I have many questions but since this thread has the potential to be quite long and in a million different directions. I will start with one or two. The first is if you are Submissive do you feel that being submissive (in this context) is related to your gender presentation? And if so why?

Please understand that I ask this question with respect I am not judging at all. And also that I am interested in this subject academically. I do not want this thread to become lists of fantasies and other such stuff We should be able to have a good discussion with out anybody posting things they pulled of fiction mania.

Lastly, the reason I ask. For me personally I feel empowered when I am Dressed. It is the only time I feel right actually but that is another thread. But even when I first started and only could dress up once in a while. I never felt passive or submissive. I always felt even then that I could take on or TOP to use the expression anyone or anything.

Do you see genetic women as submissive? Is it a shame thing? Motivated by guilt? I am grabbing at straws here and would really like to hear from you.

A foot note:
I edited this post and the title because Stephanie pointed out with good reason that CD community gets a lot of bad press and why add fuel to the fire. And I agree with her, so I removed the TG reference from the title and left it at for those interested. I hope that is OK. I also wanted to ad something about why I am interested and why I ask questions that tend to put people on the defensive. I really do not want to stir the pot nor am I judging anyone.
As to my reasons other than the on I already stated. As it says above my avatar "I live in the real world" I am out to family and friends at work and everywhere else. I bring this up not to brag or flaunt but to make my point. As stephanie has Said "CDs get a lot of bad press" and that is certainly very true. In the course of living my life and interacting with friends and meeting people I am often asked not only about myself. But about the community at large. And like Stephanie I care about the transgender community ALL OF IT!!! That includes Transexuals, Crossdressers, TransMen, And anybody else under any other label that YOU, WE, THEY, might care to use.
I celebrate people doing things that make them happy and if that includes BDSM, The Maid thing, or whatever I am happy for you, and would like to one understand you, and two be able to support you. I cant do that without information. And I wouldn't mind learning something about myself in the process.
The reason I ask is because I have been asked by others, as is always the case when I open a thread such as this. I am a very gregarious person, I meet a lot of people, and people ask questions. Questions that are usually motivated by what they see on the Springer Show or some other misguided portrayal of our community. I want to give them good intelligent answers that show us in the light we deserve. So the next time someone asks me, and believe me they will and have.

"why when I looked up Crossdressing or whatever label on the internet, I found a bondage site etc.. are you like that?"

I want to be able to say "well no that is not my thing"
but I would like to add "but for some it is and the people I spoke to explained it this way"
and I would also throw on the end of that "and by the way I think it is really cool and I support them doing what makes them happy!"

All I am asking for is a little help. Wow! my foot note is longer than my OP Sorry about that.

The final thing I want to clarify, I get that it is not everybody. For the love of all things pretty It isn't even me! Thats why I am asking!

[Pythos]

My GG is Submissive to the point SHE is worried about it. Now that being said, I do find many GG being submissive, and usually it is not because of anything natural per se, but due to the manner they were raised, and things they were told. My GG friend for instance was brought up being told she was useless and worthless due to her being a girl. She was treated like trash too. The female friends I have had that act submissive also seem to have had a similar bringing up. Ones that were brought up to be proud of themselves, participated in sports, and were treated with respect when they were children ARE NOT SUBMISSIVE.

So my view is quite skewed when it come to this. What I say here may be a bit off.

There are levels of submissiveness that are natural, and all species exhibit this, but not to the point some humans do.

I myself do not find me being overtly sub, or dom. I can get uncomfortable playing the dom. I don't like fixed roles.

I have been described as a switch.

[JiveTurkeyOnRye]

I'm not into BDSM per se, but to the more general question of your post, I also don't feel all that submissive when I get dressed up in girly things. In fact on the rare occasions I've had a partner give the ok on me wearing lingerie in the bedroom, I've felt very confident and as such maybe even a little more assertive, though I wouldn't say necessarily dominant. I think it's because I've always gravitated towards confident, strong women, so that's maybe the direction I go towards myself when I'm feeling feminine in the bedroom.

There's definitely a rather sizeable contingent that would disagree with me though. The whole "sissy" subculture, which seems to be somewhat related to BDSM but more it's own thing, definitely plays up the angle of the crossdressed male as submissive. I try to have a "to each their own" mentality about people's sexualities, but there's always felt like a certain degree of ugliness to the motivations behind the sissy thing, to me. It bugs me in a way. It feels like there's definitely an air of misogyny, but maybe I'm reading too much into it.

[kaitlin]

Well let me start by saying that I too am a "switch". I do tend to lean more towards being a sub, but still a switch! I do love the feeling I get when dressed, I feel more connected with life. I don't think that I feel more of a sub because of being a crossdresser, I just truly enjoy it. Even if i wasn't a CD I still would be into BDSM! Part of it may be that I spent most of my life in the job world, where I had to be "in charge" Had to lead, had to be the boss. So now it's nice letting someone else make me do or act the way they want me too!

[MarinaKirax]

Yes, I think there is an attractive quality in the helplessness of a bound female that is part of the stimulation. For instance, I am much more interested in 'damsel in disteess ' bondage. To be bound en femme, but not to PRESENT as obviously female (for instance, wrapped in plastic, or zentai suits, or something, where you couldn't quite tell male from female) doesn't interest me. I enjoy a more sparse bondage, and and emphasizing femininity. Wrists tied behind the back, but the blouse open and a barely contained cleavage; few ropes around the ankles is a prettier picture, particularly if the ankles are covered in seamed stockings and capped with simple black stillettoes. That gets me way more than heavy leather straps and hoods.

In short, the BDSM I'm into does have a cross-over with the submissive question. The damsels in distress have to look worried, or scared. And when I am bound, I want to look that way, too. I believe that a part of my dressing is being in love with the way I look as a woman, and that if there were no mirrors in the world, a big part of my dressing would change. I enjoy presenting and seeing myself as a woman, and other activities flow from this; for instance the desire to pass in public is a reaffirmation of whether I really do look like a woman. It reinforces my fantasy of being feminine. When I am bound, a big part of the enjoyment is how female and how 'in distress' I look, and a submissive role, appearinggagged AND scared, is a part of that. So yes, fem/submissive aspects play together. Not because women are submissive, or that I see women as less powerful, but that there is a frailty and fragility to femininity that is undeniable.

Does that help? MK

[DebsUK]

I was really anxious that I was developing some major auto-sadomasochistic tendencies, but I decided not to beat myself up over it

[RADER]

My wife and myself played with bondage for a while years ago. I would secure her to the headboard
and play away; Some times I would put whipping cream on her nipples. Yummy.
Now the thrill is gone as it were, Things do not work as good as they used to, and the wife
has hart troubles, so sex is not that big a deal now. We do still have each other. She is OK with my
dressing, as long as I stay inside. My point is, I always treaded her as an equal, no top, "boss"
or Bottom between us. We would always go grocery shopping together until now her handicap's
have her in a wheel chair. We always try to hug each other At least once a day.
I hope this answers your question. I dress because I enjoy being in fem clothing, Not because I want
to feel like a Sub (Not a sandwich,LOL), or a top when I am in drab. Rader

[KristaE]

Not so much into the SM part, but I definitely think there is a BD aspect to my CDing. And it isn't so much "submitting" like a servant or slave, but more being served and allowing your partner to take the reins. This thread is about sex, so I hope no one objects to me getting a bit specific in my descriptions that will follow... if you don't want to read it, go ahead and skip the rest of this post...

No matter how you cut it, in the end, a man's penis really is in control, whether he wants it to be or not... There have been times that it is hard to hold back an orgasm, which makes it hard for my wife to "take control"... I would have to tell her "I'm ready", which still has me in a degree of control. So that may be some of what is causing me to desire taking a more submissive role, because it is so hard to be truly submissive.

I envy my wife being able to orgasm over and over and she really seems to get "lost" in the feelings, sensations, and emotions of the event. I have to finish and then I've got to take at least a 15-20 minute rest (if I'm able to go again at all... usually only with the help of an "enhancement" pill). And it isn't a "lasting" issue... I can last just fine. It's that at some point, I decide when it's over. That is sad to me.

[Stephanie Miller]

I need you to inform me a little of which you speak DaphneGrey. Your statement "BDSM which seems to be a somewhat common interest among crossdressers" is the highlight here. Possibly I'm a bit over-protective of the CD world, but when I hear, or read, statements like this it causes me to squinchel a little. My exposure is that society in general looks at BDSM as something kinky and should be left hidden and out of site. (Unless you are of a heavy religious faith and then participants should go directly to hell and not pass go ) With that being the case, is it not best to leave statements such as this out of a conversation where we know "Joe Public" is possibly cruising the forum. Do we not want the public to accept us as "normal" people? And that crossdressing is NOT wrong. Besides, I'm not really sold on the idea of yours that BDSM is indeed common among crossdressers. There certainly are those that participate ( and I'm certainly not one to judge it's morality), but common?

[docrobbysherry]

I don't think BDSM is more common among CDs than in the general population. And won't change my belief unless you've some hard figures to back that up?

I myself have ALWAYS been fascinated by bondage! WAY before I ever CDed. And I'm just now finding out that Sherry loves being tied up! My series of, "The Perils of Sherry" pics, will NOT be posted here, unfortunately!

[LilSissyStevie]

So is this another one of those "I don't get you sissy freaks so tell me again what you're about so I can reassure myself that I'm better than you." kind of questions? LOL!

[EllieOPKS]

I am not sure about the bdsm and CD correlation other than if you are openminded enough to explore CD you would probably be more accepting of something different such as BDSM. I have always viewed the vast majority of women at being somewhat submissive. With that being said, presenting as a woman in appearance and actions would naturally create a degree of submissiveness. IMHO.

[MarinaKirax]

"I don't think BDSM is more common among CDs than in the general population. And won't change my belief unless you've some hard figures to back that up?" - docrobsherry


Well, here is a study from a British Psychiatry journal (http://bjp.rcpsych.org/cgi/content/abstract/159/3/371) looking into sexual asphyxia (orgasm and blacking out) that states that transvestism and bondage are frequently associated. It's in the introduction, and it is stated as established fact, not 'hey, this is new news". I think the association is real - that a certain types of crossdressers will be more likely than the average population to experiment with bondage. By 'certain types', I mean those that are stimulated by wearing, or looking at themselves wearing, women's clothes. That's as opposed to people who are in transition, people who identify themselves as female, etc. I don't think the question is mean spirited at all, and I don't think we should limit our discussion just to appear 'more normal' to the casually curious who troll the forum. Its not that being en femme is acceptably unusual, and that bondage is weird, I think. They both are what they are. My gosh, have you seen that show called "Strange Addictions" that focuses on people eating household cleanser and toilet paper? I swear I never felt more normal in my life!! MK

[Stephanie47]

I read the link before posting. My wife and I tried mild bondage, and, it ran its course. I think every male has a desire or fantasy of being tied down spread eagle and having his S/O having her way with his body. All legitimate websites on bondage and self bondage STRESS do not tie anything around the neck and have a person to monitor the activity. Now, how many times have there been posts here concerning the necessity to cross-dress in privacy without the S/O around. My wife does not like my cross-dressing, so it sure as heck ain't getting into the marital bed. If I want to hang myself in the closet, I'm going to have to do it alone.

[GaleWarning]

Having worked all my life in an environment/profession where women outnumber men, I have always considered men and women to be equal. And I have carried this notion of equality into my private relationships. Whenever I have been involved in bondage, we have taken turns. We seem to have done pretty much the same things as RADER describes above. The purpose was to establish trust.

Sex is fun! And it's varieties are virtually endless!

("Hit me!" said the masochist. "No!" said the sadist.)

[Stephanie Miller]

Marina, thanks for the article. Although how I read it is that in those subjects studied there were associations between transvestism and BDSM, NOT CD's in general. Better put: If we picked any 3 out of 100 CD's on this forum that are into B.D.S.M. then the chances are darn high they would be in the associated category with said subjects. It does not say the other 97 CD's are even considered. And that is what I'm getting at. Even if those that are into B.D.S.M., as well as others that may not be but are unopposed, think the general public may not have a problem with it I think (and this is just MY assumption) that most CD's don't want the public to associate themselves with B.D.S.M. crossdressers. NOT that there is anything wrong with it - to each their own. But the more support we have going forward the easier the "fight" will be with the rest. And it's just that more people in general are not into B.D.S.M.

[AllieSF]

I too question the notion that BDSM is prevalent among CD's. I can see it in the the more fetish side of our spectrum. I also believe that a lot of people in BDSM just happen to crossdress.

I think the woman's role has traditionally been the submissive one, housewife, child bearer and raiser, non-worker. That has, fortunately, changed for the positive over time. In BDSM submissive has a special meaning to that understood by the general public. I am referencing the general publics interpretation of that word.

Stephanie, regarding your suggestion to self-censor these type of discussions, I can only say that this is a good topic, has so far been handled properly in this thread, and we shouldn't be painting false, unrealistic pictures of who and what we are and do. Should we remove the panty threads, or maybe the CD dating ones? I hope not.

[Crissy Kay]

Since I prefer dressing as a maid in most of my cding, I do consider myself on the sub side while dressed. I am not really into any BDSM, unless I do find a mistress someday that I liked. Then I may give it a shot!!!

[Kaz]

Hi Daphnie,

Your thread starts with an assumption that CDs are all BDSM.. I would just like to state that some us are not... and we are quite cool about that...

[NathalieX66]

i have a fantasy about being a little girl, and dressing up like one ,as sort of the antithesis of being a male that likes male things (trucks, guns, power, domination, etc.) which seems exciting to me in a masochistic kind of way..... but that is not why I crossdress.

Little girl's clothes look like clown clothes, only more frillier. They do not look like women's clothes.
Little boy's clothes look like little mens clothes.

My transgenderism is more of a manifestation of my personal tastes in clothing & style. I just like what I like and I want to be & do what women do. It's just me. Men's clothes bore me.

[Cassandra Lynn]

For the sake of this all taking off in the wrong way, might i suggest Daphne, that you do a search on this topic. I know that there was a very long and quite thorough discussion of what you are asking.
My mind is drawing a blank at the moment, so i'll have to come back to it.

You tell em' Stevie!!!!

Cassie

p.s. ok, so i looked and the thread was started by our friend BRANDYJ, and since it went to 7 pages you should find lot's of valuable info there. Sorry but i would provide the link if i knew what the heck i was doing.
Maybe someone more knowledgeable could consider that a hint.

[DaphneGrey]

Hi Daphnie,

Your thread starts with an assumption that CDs are all BDSM.. I would just like to state that some us are not... and we are quite cool about that...

No it doesn't Kaz. "For those of you that are interested" That kind of says some not all.

[MonicaTC]

I do enjoy bdsm and I am a sub, at least as male. Now, I normally have some femme mannerisms while masculine (makes me a well rounded individual), but they become more pronounced in a bdsm/sub situation. But, as Monica, it's hard to say. Feel sub still, but Monica is so new to the world, that side of myself has yet to discover her true nature. There is something a bit empowering being Monica that I find interesting. Maybe it's the awesome knee high, patent leather boots with laces all the way up that inspires a dominatrix in me, or maybe the idea of staring down a sub while I'm in a tight corset. Perhaps Monica goes both ways, only time and experience will tell. LOL.

I do find the typical bdsm notions of gender and roles offputing, even offensize sometimes. Genetic women are not naturally submissive to me, though some in bdsm community see it that way. But I also despise the denegration men receive just because they are men. And I just can't wrap my head around using feminization as a punishment. But to each there own (to a limit lol).

[DaphneGrey]

I need you to inform me a little of which you speak DaphneGrey. Your statement "BDSM which seems to be a somewhat common interest among crossdressers" is the highlight here. Possibly I'm a bit over-protective of the CD world, but when I hear, or read, statements like this it causes me to squinchel a little. My exposure is that society in general looks at BDSM as something kinky and should be left hidden and out of site. (Unless you are of a heavy religious faith and then participants should go directly to hell and not pass go ) With that being the case, is it not best to leave statements such as this out of a conversation where we know "Joe Public" is possibly cruising the forum. Do we not want the public to accept us as "normal" people? And that crossdressing is NOT wrong. Besides, I'm not really sold on the idea of yours that BDSM is indeed common among crossdressers. There certainly are those that participate ( and I'm certainly not one to judge it's morality), but common?

I understand where you are coming from, but I think ultimately talking about these things in a mature way does more good than harm.

Radar, we didn't need the description this is supposed to be a thread about motivation.

LILsissiestevie, I tried t be as open minded as possible and express that I wasn't judging anyone. There was really no need for that reply.

Jive and Mirina Thank you for the post I want to respond to them and I will but I am in a rush at the moment.

[Lisa Anne]

When endeavoring to cite as fact or even draw conclusions from material, careful consideration must be given to the source data. The quoted abstract from a very small survey does not and in fact does not purport to make any observations about the general activities or associations within the gender community. The study quoted investigates an extremely small subset of human behavior. This study reviews only those who have died from autoerotic asphyxia. It is not a study of gender based behavior. Transvestism, along with other attributes, is only introduced as a potential observable association of the target group. The study draws conclusions only about the habits and behaviors of those who died engaging in autoerotic asphyxia and actually offers nothing about gender communities beyond their observation that some who died also participated in transvestitic behavior. The definition of transvestism is also a bit vague in the abstract. Without further explanation the abstract says that observable behavior such as anal self-stimulation and viewing oneself in the mirror were attributed to transvestism. Without a supporting explanation of that methodology the best they can be said for that assignment is, well I guess it isn’t bondage.