The difference between generalizing and stereotyping.

[DaphneGrey]

When we are here on the forum discussing topics it gets really tiresome having to defend every other statement because someone is offended at an innocent generalization. I realize that we are all different, that we all fall at a different place on the gender spectrum and that we all have different motivations and desires and reasons for doing the things we do and talking about the things we talk about.

Here is the thing when looking at a subculture such as ours or any for that matter it is hard not to generalize. We all generalize at one point or another in our posts. A good example is "Gender and Sexuality are separate and independent of each other" That is an easy generalization for most (on this forum) to swallow. But for me personally it isn't true. Having said that I don't find it offensive in the least. Most crossdressers who identify as women at least part of the time are Heterosexual and as such hold to that standard and thats fine.

Recently I asked a couple of questions one "why are we so afraid of being thought of as gay" (please don't answer in this thread) "We" (and we includes me or did at one time) is a collective statement in that context meant to include the heterosexual crossdressing community. I know it is not everyone, but anyone with a shred of intellectual honesty can deny that as a community we are hung up on broadcasting our heterosexuality. Is it a generalization sure, are there many exceptions absolutely. Is it a wrong or incorrect statement. No it is not.

The other was a question about BDSM which for whatever reason is a noticeable topic on this forum. So I asked a question about a topic I am trying to understand because quite a lot of people talk about it here. Any internet search on crossdressing will pull hundreds of sites that deal with that topic. So saying "It seems to be quite popular in our community" is a true and correct statement. It is quite popular in our community. I realize that not everybody wants to associated with such behavior and understand those concerns. What I said certainly doesn't mean everybody and I am sure not even most. It does exist however and like it or not it is popular and quite visible to outsiders.

My point is this it is not fair to generalize when it suits you when it presents the image that you agree with and are comfortable projecting. and then to jump down my and other members throats when it something you don't like.

The first paragraph of this post is a generalization that is made here on this forum over and over and over. It just happens to be easy to take for most and for most it is true so there is nothing wrong with saying it.

A Stereotype is not the same thing! All are "insert" I have never stereotyped anyone and I never would!

[Patricia Jane]

For the understabding of me, How do you define BDSM? This question is asked only for my enlightment. Thanks in advance

[DaphneGrey]

For the understabding of me, How do you define BDSM? This question is asked only for my enlightment. Thanks in advance

Bondage,dominance,Submission,masochism

[Marissa]

Daphne,

In some obscure way, I'm glad that you are bringing this topic up and I'll await the responses it brings forth as in the same manner as your previous thread that you mentioned here. I don't think I responded to that thread as I wanted to see its course and if needed, add my 2 cents.

But my response would have been just this which fits really well here..why could you not have substituted the word 'we' for 'some'

We = All, Some = more than one but not All.

I have seen topics and replies that want to put everyone into one big bowl, but that is not always a true view of 'some' of our feelings. Just because I dress, doesn't mean I love men, women, or both. Doesn't mean I'm gay, bi, hetero.

Just because I dress doesn't mean I want to transition. So yes, it does bother me when a response is 'you need to be true to who you are and begin the process, come out to the world' I am being true to me, by just crossdressing and exploring whatever levels I decide.

Yes we are adults and can make our own decisions..now I said we, but honestly, its really some. Because a few will take the words as they are typed here and run with them, open up to their SO and all heck breaks lose..then come back and blame the site, without considering that we are all responsible for our own actions.

Maybe some are to blame..if no consideration for steroetyping or generalization wasn't considered.

I hope you find the answers to the questions at hand...

Happily stated

Marissa

[DaphneGrey]

Daphne,

In some obscure way, I'm glad that you are bringing this topic up and I'll await the responses it brings forth as in the same manner as your previous thread that you mentioned here. I don't think I responded to that thread as I wanted to see its course and if needed, add my 2 cents.

But my response would have been just this which fits really well here..why could you not have substituted the word 'we' for 'some'

We = All, Some = more than one but not All.

I have seen topics and replies that want to put everyone into one big bowl, but that is not always a true view of 'some' of our feelings. Just because I dress, doesn't mean I love men, women, or both. Doesn't mean I'm gay, bi, hetero.

Just because I dress doesn't mean I want to transition. So yes, it does bother me when a response is 'you need to be true to who you are and begin the process, come out to the world' I am being true to me, by just crossdressing and exploring whatever levels I decide.

Yes we are adults and can make our own decisions..now I said we, but honestly, its really some. Because a few will take the words as they are typed here and run with them, open up to their SO and all heck breaks lose..then come back and blame the site, without considering that we are all responsible for our own actions.

Maybe some are to blame..if no consideration for steroetyping or generalization wasn't considered.

I hope you find the answers to the questions at hand...

Happily stated

Marissa

I wont argue with you I now that I think about it I could have used the line some but using we is just as appropriate.

The reason I used we In that context is because that is how I felt at the time. I consider myself part of a large community and frankly that community our community projects projects that sentiment. It is obvious on this forum and every other. Every support group website that I have visited and the first in every FAQ answer list about crossdressing I have ever seen. So I used "WE" because that is what people see when they look at "US" a community.

In my other thread I mentioned I used the words Popular and common also a generalization and also true.

[kimdl93]

I think you're right about the difficulty "some" people have in distinguishing generalizations, which can be useful in understanding phenomenon, and stereotypes, which actually obscur understanding. I suspect it depends on an individual's sensitivities or hot buttons. For example, if I were an even mildly homophobic person, I might have react to any association between CDing and sexual preference viscerally. Same thing with BSDM, for individuals who are particularly offended by certain types of sexual behaviors.

None of us likes to be lumped into a category based on the perceived characteristics of others...but thats a dilemma that's almost unavoidable in life.

[Marissa]

I wont argue with you I now that I think about it I could have used the line some but using we is just as appropriate.

The reason I used we In that context is because that is how I felt at the time. I consider myself part of a large community and frankly that community our community projects projects that sentiment. It is obvious on this forum and every other. Every support group website that I have visited and the first in every FAQ answer list about crossdressing I have ever seen. So I used "WE" because that is what people see when they look at "US" a community.

In my other thread I mentioned I used the words Popular and common also a generalization and also true.

Daphne, thank you for understanding where I was coming from on the 'we' thing. And I agree that such wording can be fitting if you are part of a group that agrees to the foundation of its purpose. I belong to a local meetup group and I joined with the understanding of what it was about and 'agreed' to all of it. So if one was to use 'we', then I fully accept that.

Now bear with my train of thoughts, please.. When I came to this site and saw the name and statement under it "crossdressers.com" "the #1 community for crossdressers, their family and friends", call me niave but I really thought that is what it was all about...not about transition or drag queens. Just those who like to wear fem attire in whatever manner or stage. Then reality hit and its great to see the variety of people and stages of lives.. so at times, the generalization gets to me only because there are so many varieties here and it would be wrong for one group to take full ownership...that others may see as being the real statement of those here.

I hope that makes sense. and yes, just my $ .02 worth...

Hugs,
Marissa

** I want to apologize if anyone misunderstands the description of my first impression on what type of site this was versus what it really is. My first impression was based solely on the name and quote, which was added to my non-education on the various lifestyles and stages that make up 'crossdressers'. I am very pleased that we are a melting pot of our own strengths, thoughts and fears. Thank you.**

[Pythos]

I am going to keep that in mind. I think I have been better lately when making a statement about people in general. I try to use words like "some" or "many", and avoid "all".

In my English courses it was known as hasty generalizations, and it was considered wrong to group entire groups into one bowl.

And yet there are those that do that to us.

[Lorileah]

The party of the first art (hereafter known as party A) will after reading posts from the party of the second part (hereafter known as party B), will attempt and make sure of not using any generalizations in a broad context which may or may not upset any or all or some members of this forum to the ends of assuming in a general and broad category that each (or some or a few) of any group may have various internal and emotional reactions that may or may not be appropriate for the response of said posts. It is hereby amended and will become standard within 30 days of posting this notice and having been read by all members of the forum who shall by reading same be held to these standards.

C'mon, are "we" that thin skinned? Other than being specific like saying "You are..." the generalization which is often implied and understood by the majority here is just that a generalization. I think "we" as a group should be more bonded and supportive. I know some will disagree. Maybe we could agree to disagree? Maybe we need to get over ourselves (or some of us should and maybe more than a few but generally more than one).

(NB having posted, what a million times here, I know I will never get everyone on my side. But is is fun to try)

[Marissa]

The party of the first art (hereafter known as party A) will after reading posts from the party of the second part (hereafter known as party B), will attempt and make sure of not using any generalizations in a broad context which may or may not upset any or all or some members of this forum to the ends of assuming in a general and broad category that each (or some or a few) of any group may have various internal and emotional reactions that may or may not be appropriate for the response of said posts. It is hereby amended and will become standard within 30 days of posting this notice and having been read by all members of the forum who shall by reading same be held to these standards.

C'mon, are "we" that thin skinned? Other than being specific like saying "You are..." the generalization which is often implied and understood by the majority here is just that a generalization. I think "we" as a group should be more bonded and supportive. I know some will disagree. Maybe we could agree to disagree? Maybe we need to get over ourselves (or some of us should and maybe more than a few but generally more than one).

(NB having posted, what a million times here, I know I will never get everyone on my side. But is is fun to try)

Okay, Lori, last time I read something written in manner of the first portion, I ended up paying extra alimony, paid for her car, and the apartment she shared with her bf ok, I'm just kidding about all that..sort of.

I state what I state only for the reason that those who do generalize, are often the same who (may) become offended when 'they' become part of the generalization.

"thin skinned", no..not by any means..it only took me 1.5 yrs to finally state it

[Laurie A]

I often struggle with the meanings and implications of some of the terminology and acronymns used on this board. I agree with Lorileah that at times some responders seem a little thin skinned regarding generalizations.

It is rare that I see anyone on this board trying to stereotype subcultures in a way that is meant to be degrading. When it does happen you can be sure that it will be called out as such. But sometimes a particular terminology may be used by a poster who does not know that people will take offense. (I know this from personal experience)

So I see no problem with topics for discussion such as "why are we so afraid of being thought of as gay" or bdsm. My brain didn't come with an owners' manual, I don't know why a think certain thoughts, and I find it useful to read other views and opinions.

[Joanne f]

Gender and sexuality are different things and in what you might call normal terms one gender gos with a certain sexuality but due to the mixing of genders with people like some of us ( not all of us as some are adamant about their gender) sexuality and gender becomes a blur, it would be easy to take the Bi option but it is said that most people could be Bi in some way if only they would drop the barrier so that leaves the heterosexual or gay option but if you are transgender you can no longer be heterosexual or gay it has become a sexuality/gender blur so the normal terms of gender and sexuality no longer apply .

[GaleWarning]

Language is tricky, especially if the person who is reading it has difficulty in understanding the full implications of what is being stated.

That is why legal jargon and lawyers "put you where they choose with the language that they use", to quote an old Don McLean song. (Ha, ha, Lori )

But too many people on this site have difficulty in understanding the logical difference between "and" and "or", or "we" and "some of us", to give two quick examples that spring to mind.

They use the language without the slightest comprehension that, by using the wrong word, they have inadvertently written a nonsense statement, which DOES offend those who can fully understand the correct meaning of the word.

We had the most marvellous example of this on TV the other night ... it was an advert for a well-known make of car ... the narrator used the word "interrogated", when what was meant to have been said was "integrated". Someone who grasped the error must have contacted the company immediately. The ad was not repeated.

[ReineD]

When we are here on the forum discussing topics it gets really tiresome having to defend every other statement because someone is offended at an innocent generalization.

It's a characteristic of the self-centered, I'm afraid ... I have often noticed here an inability to acknowledge something that may not exactly apply to the offended member. It's as if he or she cannot grasp the concept that there are larger trends, albeit with some variance, let alone the idea that others may look at things differently than they do.

Or, they're bored and they enjoy debating the smallest differences.

[Kate Simmons]

Unfortunately "we" as a community tend to think it's all about us which, in all honesty, is a male trait. If we really want to emulate women, we need to act like them, not in appearance only but in being caring and supportive of others. As was mentioned, not everyone is the same. We should celebrate the unique and diverse members of the community in any case, not nit pick every little thing we don't agree with.This is one reason why we are where we are, we tend to look at folks as "things" rather than people.

[Fab Karen]

Everytime someones says something like "we are afraid of being seen as gay" I say,"what you mean WE?" ( in Tonto-speak ( see "the Lone Ranger" )) - the more you generalize, the further you get from reality. "all men are..." "all women are..." "all black people are..."

[Marissa]

Everytime someones says something like "we are afraid of being seen as gay" I say,"what you mean WE?" ( in Tonto-speak ( see "the Lone Ranger" )) - the more you generalize, the further you get from reality. "all men are..." "all women are..." "all black people are..."

Okay Karen, I'm going to take a stab that we are on the same page..we, being you and I,..not all..lol.. That was my exact feeling when I saw the words.. I'm not afraid of being seen as gay, because I"m not gay. So why am I thrown in with the bunch..oh..its easy to generalize..without knowing that yes, some of us don't want that. And I"m not being self-centered, or bored... I'm being honest.

Now I don't jump on every comment that is made, in fact, I have never stated my true feelings.. but still I am bothered by it.. I'm sharing here because that was the point of this thread.

and for the record, as a male, I'm caring and supportive..so that is not just a trait of a woman. now that is pure generalization.. I know alot of women who are self-centered and 'better than all'... so please..don't go there.

ok.. going back to my cave for another 1.5 yrs....

Marissa

[tiffanyjo89]

It is my understanding that stereotypes are sometimes incorrect ideas fabricated from other incorrect ideas.

Generalizations, on the other hand, are more frequently correct ideas created from facts.

Stereotypes, while based in fact, are over exaggerating said facts while generalizations tend to be more grounded.

To say crossdressers are gay guys that want to be women is a stereotype. Saying some crossdressers are gay, but most are straight and have no desire to become a woman full time is a generalization.

EDIT: most stereotypes originate from outside a community from uneducated people, while most generalizations originate from around, but not within, a community from learning about said community. Both are meant to do a very similar thing, but with vastly different results.

[Eve_WA]

We all generalize at one point or another in our posts. A good example is "Gender and Sexuality are separate and independent of each other" That is an easy generalization for most (on this forum) to swallow. But for me personally it isn't true.

Just to jump into the frey here...

ACTUALLY... gender and sexuality ARE different. Just for you, and many others on this site, they happen to be aligned within the stereotypical definition of 'women like men'. But for the others, they are not aligned in that manner. There have been many studies on this, and the determination within the psychological community is that they are different, and can diverge from the stereotypical norm. Thats why we have Gay, Lesbian, Hetero and Bi individuals.

My two cents.

Eve

[docrobbysherry]

I believe the purpose of this site is to concentrate on the Gender aspects of cross dressing, and transexuality. And, NOT so much the fetish sexual aspects. I've learned this thru my visits here.

This is certainly not a fetish or hook up dating site! That may be what makes it so unique and popular!?
Altho fetish dressers r accepted here, other fetishes r not. I'm into several, so it's a topic I'm familiar with.

If u want to openly discuss BDSM or other sexual fetishes, there r plenty of sites that SPECIALIZE in them!

[DaphneGrey]

I believe the purpose of this site is to concentrate on the Gender aspects of cross dressing, and transexuality. And, NOT so much the fetish sexual aspects. I've learned this thru my visits here.

This is certainly not a fetish or hook up dating site! That may be what makes it so unique and popular!?
Altho fetish dressers r accepted here, other fetishes r not. I'm into several, so it's a topic I'm familiar with.

If u want to openly discuss BDSM or other sexual fetishes, there r plenty of sites that SPECIALIZE in them!

That really isn't what this thread is about but since you brought it up. Quite a few members have openly and honestly answered my questions. So I think this is a perfectly appropriate place to talk about it.

[DaphneGrey]

Everytime someones says something like "we are afraid of being seen as gay" I say,"what you mean WE?" ( in Tonto-speak ( see "the Lone Ranger" )) - the more you generalize, the further you get from reality. "all men are..." "all women are..." "all black people are..."

I never said all anybody and never would! Please don't put words in my mouth!

Thanks everyone for the responses. I will just say this, I don't stereotype and I don't judge anyone. I explained my posts clearly and the uses of any generalizations were correct and appropriate. So from now on I am just going to write my posts as I would. If I ruffle some feathers, well I guess there is nothing I can do about it. Other than to apologize in advance. So if I have used a generalization that offends I am sorry. But I will continue to use them, It is a perfectly acceptable way to describe a trend in our community or any other and if some people cant handle that, go ahead and post your objections in my threads. Just don't expect an answer.

I love this forum for many reasons, but my time to contribute to and learn from it is very limited. I would rather spend what little time I have discussing, learning and growing. Not having to answer for and explain semantics.

[Shari]

Bless you Daphne.

You keep trying but so many don't read or can't accept what you write if the words or phrasing doesn't fit them absolutely. Instead of intelligent responses to your posts, you receive hate mail. Instead of using their brains, they immediately take offense at the first word that they comprehend to be some sort of personal attack.

I hope you have fun reading the responses from the feathers that are somehow ruffled at the least little thing. That's all you'll get when trying to come up with any sort of definitions or statements that are somehow deemed to be outside of the protective bubble.

You see, you comprehend, you think and you tell the truth. You are too often chastised for it.

[eluuzion]

hiya Daphne...

I love playing the “What is the difference between....” game. When I was a stained-glass artist, my partner and I would play “dictionary” games like this all day long while we were cutting glass.

Ok, I’ll play !! ...here is my guess...

Difference between generalizing and stereotyping?

Generalization
"a statement about a class based on an examination of some of its members". We all try to classify things we experience in order to simplify discussions and help make decisions about similar items we meet in the future. The simplification always results in some distortion.

Hasty Generalization
If we generalize too soon, we may classify things incorrectly. We find a few commonalities and then generalize that it is true for all things in that group.

Stereotype:
"A generalization, usually exaggerated or oversimplified and often offensive, that is used to describe or distinguish a group." The most observable difference seen in a stereotype is that it is typically takes an offensive slant that implies members of that group share some dysfunctional or negative characteristics.

IMO...Here are a few other good questions and terms related to the “linguistic landmines” that often turn forum thread discourse into a train wreck...

Difference between a Fact and an Opinion
Difference between Perception and Reality
Difference between Logical Premise and Logical Fallacy
Difference between Objective and Subjective
Difference between the Internet and Reality
Difference between a Discussion and an Argument
Difference between Disagreeing and being Disagreeable
Difference between Affable and Defensive
Difference between Factual Accounts and Fantasy Stories
Difference between Replying and Critiquing
Difference between Common Sense and Nonsense

But hey, defining and understanding that would just lead to better communication on forums, and where is the fun in that?

[NicoleScott]

I believe the purpose of this site is to concentrate on the Gender aspects of cross dressing, and transexuality. And, NOT so much the fetish sexual aspects. I've learned this thru my visits here.

I'm afraid you're right, Doc, but it's not how it's supposed to be. This is supposed to be a site for crossdressers (regardless of what drives the cd-ing) family and friends. Some of us are pleasure dressers, and we shouldn't have to ride in the back of the bus.