FeAr

[ReineD]

The poster previous to you also seems to have missed the point.

I don't think I missed the point. I was responding to this statement:

I am getting tired of reading about an SO completely and utterly acting irrationally when their SO is either discovered as a CD or TS, or admits to being such.

If a TG tells a potential love interest that he CDs and she chooses to move on, she is not being irrational. She is exercising her right to live her life as she chooses, just as is the TG. Is it irrational for a hetero GG to not be attracted to a feminine male? I don't think so.

If she is angry when she finds out after years of marriage that both her husband and his sexuality are not what he had portrayed to her, this is not irrational. It is a very natural reaction to having been lied to and to discovering her marriage and her husband were not what she thought they were.

As to the fear ... I agree it is what causes most if not all our negative reactions, even anger. I'll be more specific. It is the fear that we will not have, or we will lose, something that we perceive to be essential to our existence. A GG is not irrational, nor is she a b*tch as you've said in other threads, for experiencing it.

... but it's excusable for a CD to hide who he is because of fear? Sounds like a double standard to me. A GG faces the issues as she works through her fearful and angry reactions, even if she eventually decides she does not want to stay married to a feminine man. The CD does not when he hides.

[kimdl93]

There is a point in one's maturation when most of us think that we can or have "outgrown" the desire to dress. I think this is one of life's dirty tricks on both the CDer and thier SO. I was pretty sure I'd grow out of it, had a nice long respite during my military service and the first few months of marriage. At that time and before I wouldn't have acknowledged to myself that I was transvestite or a cross dresser or transgendered or whatever. It seemed like a phase that maybe I'd left behind. So, if I entered my first marriage without telling her before hand, it was perhaps ignorance or denial on my part, but not deliberate deceipt.

But, I guess fortunately, in my case, my prediliction revealed itself very early in our marriage in a manner that made it easier to recognize on her part and easier for me to acknowledge. But, I was fortunate in that my x was really very open minded and accepting. She didn't have any obligation to accept me, but chose to, and I'm grateful for that.

[Pythos]

ReineD

I addressed my error in pointing out the poster,

So was a husband within his rights to dump a woman when she wanted to get a job, and have a career (something that shockingly still happens in this day and age)? The reason being that her having a job affects his image as a man. He would not be the only breadwinner.

Sadly, he is. He has every right to do that. Is it right?

Well....I guess you need to be the judge on that. I personally think the guy is a sexist ass if he does that. But what would his reason be for dropping her again?

Hmmm, could it be fear? Again. Fear of losing his manhood, or his control?

I know the example is different from a guy wanting to wear clothing of a woman, and be accepted, but it seems the argument about women being shunned and dumped for the same is a moot argument since women fought for that right.

[docrobbysherry]

"The only thing to fear, is fear itself!"
Which is patent nonsense, as Eluusion pointed out. The word "fear" is like the word "color". They both cover great varieties and differing depths.
Fear is a necessary part of life. If NO ONE lived with fears, we'd ALL BE DEAD!

As to the ongoing argument on who's "at fault" or "who is more afraid", the CD or the SO?
I'd say whichever of u is without sin, throw the first brickbat! Or, which came first? The chicken or the egg? Does ANY of this bickering really help in solving these problems!?

I FEAR NOT!!! Ha ha ha!

[Emma England]

I have read every post in this thread.

All that is happening is that you are all arguing with each other.

Fear? Afraid of clothes on your body lmao!!!!!

[Valerie Nova]

Heh, I am finding at least around here, Bisexual girls also hide their true selves. Once again, out of fear. The GG I am with there is no hope of anything happnening with, which is a shame cause she is bi, but man has she got luggage.

It actually seems kind of trendy for girls to say they're bi, or at least pretend, but the real bisexual girls are often afraid of what people will think. My girlfriend is kind of bisexual, but leans more toward guys. She's made out with her (female) roommate before and been afraid to tell me, for instance. She found out about my hobby when she tried to take off my shirt once and I didn't let her. Because I'd been wearing lady clothes not too long ago and still had red marks on my skin that made that fact glaringly obvious. Anyway, she persisted in trying to take my shirt off and I still didn't let her so she freaked out and then finally I told her. At first she was a bit weirded out and asked me if I was gay, which of course I'm not. But once she let it sink in, she told me that she actually found me sexier because of that.

Aaaaand, here's where half the faces in this forum turn green with envy.

I love that woman.

[RACH99]

I cannot find a noogie emoticon so this will have to do. Besides I wouldn't want to get your hair all messed up Sweets. :P

Ok the way I see it is I simply used your OP as a jump point to expand the conversation you began. I do feel any thing we post does reflex on our own feelings, thoughts, and emotions so while you may not have intended it that way it was about you in many ways. Again just my POV.

As to the man who dumped the wife in your example right or wrong is in the eyes of the beholder. In enough cases the wife went on her merry way and opened the door for those following in her foot steps. So it stands to reason just like the women who stood up to society's ideas of the past including, I have to imagine, many a mother it is up to the TG of today to be willing to open that magical door towards freedom for those who come after. Including a lot of mothers and fathers who will not like this at all. God willing some day parents will embrace their children regardless of differences.

I keep reading how you love aviation may I ask what you do for a living P? Good grief you aren't in air traffic control are you? It would explain the hair

Of course I'm teasing you. I've decided to adopt you whether you like it or not since like my younger siblings I often don't know whether I want to hug you, comfort you or shake you. lol

[NicoleScott]

Right you are, Doc. Fear isn't some disease or affliction we'd rather not have. We need fear. It's a survival mechanism.
I KNOW that my boss is a homophobe, and I also know that he considers any behavior not purely male or female (like crossdressing) as queer (his words), and whoever does that must be a homo (his words). It's naive to think that a boss (he's the TOP boss) can't find a legitimate reason to fire whoever he wants. I fear losing my job. It's real. That's why I cannot come out as a crossdresser. Fear keeps me employed.

[RACH99]

I have read every post in this thread.

All that is happening is that you are all arguing with each other.
[...]

Nawww Em we aren't arguing we're debating. What better way to learn about one other? Well I guess there is that listening thing but

[Jane P]

The thing is , we only fear what matters to us. My wife doesn't fear what matters to me , she fear what people think of her by being associated with me.

[ReineD]

So was a husband within his rights to dump a woman when she wanted to get a job, and have a career? The reason being that her having a job affects his image as a man.

Pythos. The economy leaves us no other choice than to have dual incomes. It takes two salaries now to be able to afford the things that took only one salary 50 years ago. I've no doubt that husbands are thrilled to have the second income and that it is a hardship when their wives don't work.

Working to support a family and put kids through college is just not the same thing as gender variance. Believe it or not, most cis and transpersons understand this. A husband and wife who both work are still quite clear on who is the man and who is the woman, even if he wears pants tailored for men while she wears hers tailored for women.

[carolinoakland]

What do iron and argon have to do with crossdressing?

Sounds like a velvet glove to me...

[Tamasina]

Here is my 2 cents. When I think I know where your going its not that simple. You must see it from a GG prospective. It may be hard for you to understand since you are single. When I started cding and told my wife I didn't understand her anger about it for a time and then I realized. First off she met me got to know me as a guy and that was her only interest not my fem side. Plus what if the shoe was on the other foot you met a nice lady you get to know her you fall in love and she says I want to dress and look like a lumber jack would anything change? What would you think? I believe there would be many of the same questions and thought and fears. I hope this helps some and if I didn't understand your thread sorry.
Tina1969

[Valerie Nova]

Here is my 2 cents. When I think I know where your going its not that simple. You must see it from a GG prospective. It may be hard for you to understand since you are single. When I started cding and told my wife I didn't understand her anger about it for a time and then I realized. First off she met me got to know me as a guy and that was her only interest not my fem side. Plus what if the shoe was on the other foot you met a nice lady you get to know her you fall in love and she says I want to dress and look like a lumber jack would anything change? What would you think? I believe there would be many of the same questions and thought and fears. I hope this helps some and if I didn't understand your thread sorry.
Tina1969

I still think if I was married to a woman who wanted to dress like a lumberjack two days a month, I wouldn't care, as long as she looked nice for me sometimes. I suppose things aren't entirely equivalent between the genders, but then we all know that already, don't we?

To digress: the reasons for this are historical, stupid, and sexist. For a woman to want to be a man or masculine, well that's understandable, because men are inherently so much better than women. But for a man to want to a woman or feminine, well, there has to be something seriously wrong with him.

[Kaz]

Hi Pythos,

I am continually amazed by the way some of these posts go... I totally understand where you are coming from and there will be many here that also do, though they will not post as the developing "consensus" appears to be attacking what they have read into your words.

I do "get it" (Sorry Sandra) and it speaks volumes to me. I totally understand the views expressed by the GG SOs on the site and empathise with them. However, I wish people would also support, or at least try to understand everyone in our community who is trying to express their issues and fears, and not just those who subscribe to the "party line".

I did not tell my SO before we married and have subsequently been living what many here will label here as a "lie". I have deceived her, I have hidden things, all of that. But when we got married and even after the birth of our first child I did not know I was a CD. Back then CD wasn't even a term used. So when over the years I struggle with what seems to be a strange infatuation, at what point do I get the shining light that says "You are a CD and it will never go away... you need to tell your SO right now!". I am sorry it didn't work like that.

It is a lot more complicated with lots at stake... like people's lives, especially when kids are involved. So I thought it would go away and it did... for years at a time. How could I know it would just come back stronger? Where was the crystal ball?

One day I will be able to express my issues and talk to people about them. I thought that this site would allow that. It would appear that if we do bring up deep rooted fears and issues that do not conform to "policy" we get attacked.

Apologies if this is a rant, but this thread has got me going. Sandra, I know you are a Super Mod and therefore I should defer and will probably get banned now for disagreeing with the "force majeur", but I just have to say... I wish more people here would "get it" - i.e. understand where Pythos and others are coming from or at least accept that there are other ways of looking at things.

I have spent my entire life trying to do the right thing. What I read here over and over is how I have been a shit person who has lied and cheated on his wife and family. I'm sorry. I am really really sorry!

Pythos is right... for some of us FEAR is at the heart of things.

[ReineD]

I still think if I was married to a woman who wanted to dress like a lumberjack two days a month, I wouldn't care, as long as she looked nice for me sometimes.

It's a lot more than dressing like a lumberjack twice a month. Its thinking about it in between, the obsession about all things lumberjack related (how would you like it if she had an an entire room full of steel toed boots, checkered flannel shirts, and axes and chainsaws? ), the focus on spending time in lumberjack forums and shopping sites, posting her macho pics and videos online for other lumberjacks to admire, and the certainty that the twice monthly expression will escalate in time to perhaps be full time after either the kids are grown or when she retires from her secretarial job. And what if eventually she will want to take hormones to bulk up her muscles for real and grow a beard? Or maybe even have sex with GG lumberjack admirers?

I know I exaggerated a bit here, but I just wanted to put it in perspective.

I have spent my entire life trying to do the right thing. What I read here over and over is how I have been a shit person who has lied and cheated on his wife and family. I'm sorry. I am really really sorry!

Pythos is right... for some of us FEAR is at the heart of things.

I don't think you're a shit person as you put it for having struggled through your gender issues. I honestly don't think most GGs would think so either. And of course, fear is a valid reason for a reluctance to come out to Loved Ones. What is hard for me and the other GGs to stomach is the justification that experiencing fear should excuse any attempt at honesty, and the idea that a GG is not allowed to also experience fear when she finds out about the CDing. There are some CDs in this forum who rationalize that keeping this fundamental part of themselves from their wives is harmless. This is what gets to most GGs .... not the struggles. I for one feel a great deal of empathy for every TG in this forum and I can't imagine how difficult it must be to live with gender issues.

[erica12b]

[SIZE=3]ReineD I have always felt you had a great view of us, (still do) but in my view on this one - fear wins [/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]I do not see the wife or gf that wants to be a lumber jack , ever , getting beaten to death, loosing her job, disowned from her family , loosing her apt , or friends for being true to her self and trying to be excepted as one of the lumber jacks every now and then (thinking and fantasying included)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]We have talked about, what secret any gg could have that would equal the male secret that a guy is a cross dresser, (world changing secret) as of yet I have not heard one, [/SIZE]
[SIZE=3] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]Every one has fears, they are there’s, rationale or irrational they are real to them then there are the facts [/SIZE]
[SIZE=3][/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]fear suck , but it is based on our oun experances / each and every one of us / alone [/SIZE]

[ReineD]

[SIZE=3]ReineD I have always felt you had a great view of us, (still do) but in my view on this one - fear wins [/SIZE]

I agree it is a valid emotion. But, the married GG is allowed to feel it too, not just her husband. And it's not a valid reason for saying that a partner "doesn't need" to know. It's not a valid reason for deception, leaving the wife to wonder what is amiss in the relationship. No one should have to live like this. Not the wife or the CD.

I can see CDs over 40 being fearful they were alone and having had no clue how to handle gender issues 10 or 15 years ago prior to the internet, but this simply isn't the case anymore. Not for the younger CDers. It's even hard to justify an older CD who continues to believe that deception is the only way.

[SIZE=3]I do not see the wife or gf that wants to be a lumber jack , ever , getting beaten to death, loosing her job, disowned from her family , loosing her apt , or friends for being true to her self and trying to be excepted as one of the lumber jacks every now and then (thinking and fantasying included)[/SIZE]

Oh Erica. If you spend a little time in the F2M forum, or talk to some of the guys about their experiences with being disowned by their families, their kids no longer wanting to have anything to do with them, being discriminated against at school, at work, you wouldn't say this.

EDIT
I want to say one more thing about fear, which I haven't seen talked about here in a while: internalized transphobia. This happens when a stigmatized group of people internalize the bias that is thrown at them by society and they end up, subconsciously perhaps, believing they are inferior for being who they are. It shows up in a husband who, deep down, fears his wife is justified in leaving him should she find out about the CDing. This, more than anything else, is what keeps CDers from being honest. It is true there are women who could not live with the CDing. But, how many threads have you read where the husband takes his courage in both hands, is fully prepared for the worst, only to find out that his wife is not running off screaming into the hills? A CDer has a much bigger chance at making his marriage a success if he overcomes his own internalized fears and he tells his wife this is who he is, than one who justifies the hiding and then his wife discovers the deception. I know that I can't possibly account for every variation on what I've just described in this small paragraph, but just pay attention to the posts from the CDers here whose wives are supportive. In most cases, it is they who have told and not the wife who has discovered it by mistake.

[docrobbysherry]

No, fear keeps you employed by someone else.
Fear kept me a slave for someone similar. I broke free and made my own job, where I would never fire me.
Someday I hope to employ a diverse work force. If we really want change, sometimes we have to embrace our fears and make a leap of faith.

Who do u think u r, Kitty? Miss Indiana Jones? Personally, I think it's GREAT that u took the "leap of faith" and MADE IT. However, remember the movie!? And, all the folks that PERISHED taking that "leap of faith"!?

Oh Erica. If you spend a little time in the F2M forum, or talk to some of the guys about their experiences with being disowned by their families, their kids no longer wanting to have anything to do with them, being discriminated against at school, at work, you wouldn't say this.

I read those heartbreaking posts, Reine, and I vow I will NOT to be in their boat!
I'm certain others must feel the same! Unless your fem side is absolutely killing u for not allowing her to take over, u simply do what u must so as to NOT destroy your life, family, and friends!

[NicoleScott]

No, fear keeps you employed by someone else.
Fear kept me a slave for someone similar. I broke free and made my own job, where I would never fire me.
Someday I hope to employ a diverse work force. If we really want change, sometimes we have to embrace our fears and make a leap of faith.

No real disagreement here. I could quit. I like my work and do not consider myself a slave by working for someone else. My company gets my good work and I get paid. Nothing wrong with that. Perhaps I misspoke. Fear keeps me in the closet because I don't want to lose my good job. I want my job and all that it provides more than I want to make that leap of faith to make that change happen.

[SweetPea_GG]

So was a husband within his rights to dump a woman when she wanted to get a job, and have a career (something that shockingly still happens in this day and age)? The reason being that her having a job affects his image as a man. He would not be the only breadwinner.

Sadly, he is. He has every right to do that. Is it right?

That example I dont think works for this topic. But lets give this example. For any man out there ho loves a woman and is in love with the womanly figure etc.. Lets turn the tables.. What if your SO who you deeply love and have been with for a extended period of time either comes to you or you find out that she actually wants to be viewed as a male.. so she wants to bind her chest which gives her that womanly figure. she wants to wear loose fitting clothing, wants to walk like a guy and talk in a deeper voice.. wants to stop shaving her legs and under arms.. everything that you are physically attracted to is now gone. I am sure there are many men out there who would feel just as hurt as a GG who finds out about her husband CDing.. there are many I am sure who wouldnt stick around either. The thought for them of being with a woman who wants to look or sometimes play the part of a male might not do it for them anymore.. so it can go both ways its just most ppl I dont think actually sit and think about what if the tables were turned..

When you give a example of a situation its easier to give a example of something that is similar. It doesnt work right in a discussion if you go totally off course and throw out a working woman vs a CDing man.. so compaire a CDing man to a CDing female.. and both sides SOs

[ReineD]

Gosh, I edited my post just above and already there are 3 more posts, so I'll finish here.

Erica .. you're young. Just try to imagine yourself in this scenario. Say you have (sorry if this is dismal) a limited time to live and you know this. You fall in love with all your heart. Would you NOT disclose this to your potential partner? Would you not want her to know what's coming down the road? I think you'd respect and love her enough to want to tell her the truth. So why should it be different when it comes to gender issues? Or any other major issue for that matter?

[erica12b]

i do admit that the ftm guys can and do have a hard time , but i feel as bad as it is for them, the mtf have a harder time IF they our outed , i have had guys tell me at my work place that he and his buddys have no problem takeing one of those " drag f^%$ crossdressers out and buring IT in th desert " his words
this is getting us off of the main thread

fear , if we take just it and only it, we all have it !

( edited ) , had replyed but

off thread , sorry

[Sandra]

I do "get it" (Sorry Sandra) and it speaks volumes to me. I totally understand the views expressed by the GG SOs on the site and empathise with them. However, I wish people would also support, or at least try to understand everyone in our community who is trying to express their issues and fears, and not just those who subscribe to the "party line".

Kaz I do try and understand and support people here... but when comments like this are made

Now, when it comes to SOs. I am getting tired of reading about an SO completely and utterly acting irrationally when their SO is either discovered as a CD or TS, or admits to being such.

Where is the understanding and support there..this is just saying that the SO shouldn't react irrationally when she just had the wind knocked out of her sails, should she just sit there and do nothing? Most TG people have lived with this for many years before they tell anyone, they have gone through the hate, guilt and yes fear but seem to think that the SO should just accept it.

ne day I will be able to express my issues and talk to people about them. I thought that this site would allow that. It would appear that if we do bring up deep rooted fears and issues that do not conform to "policy" we get attacked.

Yeah I see a picture here....you see the GGs here get that feeling as well when they don't conform.

Apologies if this is a rant, but this thread has got me going. Sandra, I know you are a Super Mod and therefore I should defer and will probably get banned now for disagreeing with the "force majeur",

You rant away

Now as for the next bit why it doesn't matter whether I'm a super mod or not you are entitled to your opinion, just remember that I am a member here as well and entitled to my opinion just as much as you are, and neither I nor any other staff member is going to ban you for disagreeing with the "force majeur" or "superior force"

[Pythos]

So,

outing your SO to his work, family, friends, and virtually ruining their lives IS RATIONAL? Over something that in the grand scheme of things is sooo unimportant.

Really?

Wow.