What is wrong with cross dressing? Why has society disapproved? What is it about the cross dressing itself (not the lying, deceit, hiding, etc.) that threatens one-on-one relationships and tears apart families? How have we allowed clothing choices to become so powerful?
I'm probably asking the wrong crowd here. I'm interested in hearing everyone's view on this, but I am particularly interested in hearing from our Loved Ones who have struggled with this issue.
Fulltime girl on the inside.
Lipstick=confidence
[SIZE=4]Holly[/SIZE]
If you believe that there is nothing wrong with crossdressing you have never seen me in a dress!
Seriously, we are different. We do things that most people do not do. Many people have problems reating to things that are not done by most members of the tribe.
\
Its different and people are afraid of different things. Either that or it makes them look at themselves and scares them.
I am going to be painfully blunt here. There are some crossdressers that look good dressed. And we certainly have some here!
But there are some that don’t. I think no mater how you look that’s fine.
But out there in the nasty old world others see a man in a dress and to them it looks anything but good. They don’t like it. They think its weird, sick, perverted even.
Now when these same people see a gorgeous looking drag queen it seems to be different. Even acceptable.
I know that’s not the complete answer but its part of it I think.
I even have to admit, if I see a woman in men’s clothes I find it unpleasant.
That’s just how I see it.
SUZY
I think that crossdressing may be considered as a threat to the masculine ideal, The supposedly ideal in that a man never cries, he must protect, he must show strength, he must never back down from a fight, he must be loyal and supportive. To me this ideal is very hard to change, in particular when some males may show weakness but hide behind a mask of so called neanderthal mentality. I am strong, I will put down anyone who says I am weak.
This means that a family who is heavily based on the ideal man may become furious if there daughter marries a guy who does not conform to their ideals hence conflict. It is very sad that so many problems arise from the "ideal male" and many forms of "maleness" have evolved, only to be suppressed by the "ideal male".
Unfortunately this attitude may take a long time to change, but with so much confusion about who crossdressers are, any change for the better will take much education and that takes time and commitment.
I think that anything "out of the taken norm" will be considered as a threat from a closed society and that is so sad, but heck didn't poor old Copernicus have a problem putting forward his ideas on a sun centered universe and not the earth?
Holly,
Thanks for posting this
I am not a DR. but I have stayed at a Holiday Inn before, ..
It's not the Clothing per say, its what it resembles how one acts when dressed or how you are percieved by others when dressed.. Walk around naked , you will be noticed, a guy wearing a dress is just a Taboo.. Nothing in this world is more natural then walking around naked . But yet it raises eye brows and can get you arrested..
There is nothing wrong in wearing clothing, are you wearing makeup as well? Are you in a wig and pumps? This is telling others that you are not JUST WEARING CLOTHING.. You are telling others you have a Femme/Masculin side that needs to be expressed. something that unless they have a Femme/Masculin side them selfs would never understand.. So without understanding you walking around or yearing the desire to express the Femme side you have are considered a freak!! Just as you would be if you were to walk around naked..
I can throw on a male pair of jeans, a male shirt.. Put a wig on ,throw some makeup on and then some heels and look just as Femme without having any female clothing exposed..
Last edited by Lucy_Bella; 01-30-2011 at 04:56 PM.
I do not!! Claim to be an expert on any topic, when I post a new thread or reply on any thread my imput is strickly that of a crossdresser. Not to offend Gay people , Transexuals or any other life style, I am only commenting on one of my own.
Cute, I stayed at a Best Western once and it was a dump. No, I'm not a doctor either.Originally Posted by Lucy_Bella
Holly,
Thanks for posting this
I am not a DR. but I have stayed at a Holiday Inn before, ..
It's not the Clothing per say, its what it resembles how one acts when dressed or how you are percieved by others when dressed.. Walk around naked , you will be noticed, a guy wearing a dress is just a Taboo.. Nothing in this world is more natural then walking around naked . But yet it raises eye brows and can get you arrested..
There is nothing wrong in wearing clothing, are you wearing makeup as well? Are you in a wig and pumps? This is telling others that you are not JUST WEARING CLOTHING.. You are telling others you have a Femme/Masculin side that needs to be expressed. something that unless they have a Femme/Masculin side them selfs would never understand.. So without understanding you walking around or yearing the desire to express the Femme side you have are considered a freak!! Just as you would be if you were to walk around naked..
I can throw on a male pair of jeans, a male shirt.. Put a wig on ,throw some makeup on and then some heels and look just as Femme without having any female clothing exposed..
It's just clothing, sure. But it means something.
Clothing tells others which "tribe" you identify with or belong to. See two teenagers walking side by side on the street. One sporting a military style haircut, wearing khakis and a polo shirt and the other with a spiked mohawk and ripped shirt/shorts/suspenders and doc martin boots. Both the same age, same school same neighborhood. Who would you trust to watch your kids? Do you know if the punk is a valedictorian that volunteers at the local food bank or that the khaki clad lad is a juvenile delinquent? No we don't, but we as a society we pigeonhole people by how they project themselves. See a punk? He must be an anarchist bad-ass. See a man in a dress? He must be a homosexual.
That said,
Why do people fear homosexuality so much? I have no idea. Maybe everyone fears exploring their own sexuality, that they too may harbor feelings that are taboo. Best way to avoid being thought of as homosexual or different, is to shut out those that are.
Ginger
I personally believe it is because beyond the belief people have that male and female are natural opposites (and thus that same sex relations are unnatural) male homosexuality is a threat to male privilege and the masculine values that dominate most of the world. This is especially true with effeminate gay men, who receive the majority of the hate.
I believe that female homosexuality is also seen as a threat to men and masculine values, but I think in general it's more accepted for two women to have a dinner date, kiss, hold hands, etc, etc. Especially if both of those women conform to gender norms.
A good question and i am looking forward to seeing any replies from the GGs on the clothes side of it only .
I personally think it has a lot to do with sexual connotations possibly linked to the same sort of thing that people think when they see a woman in a very short skirt people start to think that it is worn for a reason other than just enjoyment .
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]Joanne
I think it is because we upset the apple cart. If we look halfway decent then straight men have mixed feelings towards the woman they see if they realize that woman is actually a man. We threaten their sexual bearings. Rather than being their problem, they put the blame on us for creating those confusing thoughts they're having.
That's my opinion at least for this moment.
Sherrie Lynn Pall
Sometimes I make sense and that frightens me.
Please don't let me be the last post on this thread
It is associated with a private matter of fantasy and deception. It conveys weakness and betrayal of the masculine privilege. It assumes homosexuality which also betrays the masculine privilege.
There is a distaste for instability. To many the act of crossing gender lines means the accepted standards are irrelevant. It means people have to change and think and care for someone they never met.
But mostly it is because certain religions are very intolerant and teach that it is ok to hate someone for who they are and what they do. Pretty much everything I said before that statement is just smoke and mirrors to avoid the elephant in the room.
Would it surprise you that I have received condemnation for offending god from members of this very forum simply for being transsexual? Even our own community contains people blinded by religious prejudice.
This is my feeling exactly. It throws people off, because we are always looking for a reference point. People need those signals to differentiate and when they see a guy looking as good as a gal, they are not only embarrased that they made an identification error, but they may feel that someone has tricked them into a "gay" situation. Also, at least from those memebrs who post here from other countries, it seems to be a world-wide feeling.
I remember many years ago when I was in Europe, I was walking behind two girls with long blond hair, their walk was feminine, they had long coats on as it was winter so the slacks fit in my mental image, but all of a sudden they turned around and were 2 young guys that were a bit androgenous but I was just caught off guard by the long blond hair, and made the supposition that they were indeed girls.
We haven't moved much from that "scarry place" in society. The other problme I think is that gays have sort of spoiled it for everyone in the sense that they were seen as effiminate and so society thinks of crossdressers as gays, and though they made great strides in acceptance, they are not home free yet. We are guilty by association, and the interenet hasn't helped. Look up crossdresser and what do get--porn sites galore, showing mostly gay activity of "trannies" "********" etc. So even the nicest among us is going to get tagged as ---you name it. It was a long time before I found this forum on the internet and in my search I went through a lot of portals and probably felt about myself the same as many people feel about us before figuring out that cd's weren't really part of that group..
Also, people don't understand, the same way we don't always understand our own motivations. I feel perfectly comfortable in my clothes and would wear them outside if society was different but we are a long way from a society that is not only tolerant but accepting. We just have to accept that as fact, venture out if it is safe and necessary.
As an afterthought maybe we should just wear a pink X as a shoulder patch and when we dress to go out, just add the patch to our clothing.!!!
It would be nice to have CD colonies, something like nudist colonies, where a person could spend a week enjoying but out of the vue of society at large. Maybe even a ship cruise that is exclusely CD.
Last edited by busker; 01-30-2011 at 05:14 PM.
I think that for most people they never question their gender, its one thing they understand then we come along nd upset the apple cart.
I think that Sherrie's point hits a big part of the reason; a woman friend of mine who was visiting San Francisco went to a small grocery store one morning. She wanted coffee and a sweet roll. The person who checked her out was TG; the woman said it made her angry. The TG did not act out in any way, just rang up the coffee, etc. and thanked the woman for shopping there.
But it made her angry, just that individual being TG and presenting as a female.
warmly, Linnea
I totally agree with what you said. Nobody reacts at all when they see a female wearing male clothing...but do the opposite and pandemonia occurs.There are way too many males that are scared to death that they might not be male enough...hence we frighten them...and females wearing male clothing are just considered silly little beings that are being inconsequential.
Great thread Holly!
You know, I get irritated when I encounter people that think cross dressing is all about sex, or that all cross dressers are sexual "deviants", but I guess I can't fault them for thinking so. There I stand, shouting to the world at the top of my lungs "THAT IS NOT WHAT BEING A CROSS DRESSER OR TRANSSEXUAL IS ABOUT!" and what happens? Sure as hell someone posts explicit pictures in their avatar or their comments on my flickr or facebook accounts showing either their privates or them in the act of giving or getting a blow job, thus undermining the message I try so hard to put out there. THAT'S what I hate about it, and that's gotta be a huge part of why our SO's and others are so reluctant to come around.
Yes, this gets to me as well. But I agree, it's hard to fault them. Overcoming stereotypes is a long process. And those of us in the TG community are not the only targets of stereotyping. Blacks fight being thought of as being inferior. Hispanics fight being thought of as lazy. Women fight to be treated equally. We fight for acceptance. The good news is that there has been improvement in all these areas including our own. So you, dear lady, keep getting out there and screaming at the top of your lungs. Educating the masses as to who we really are is the key to keep us moving forward. And modeling the behavior of a good, moral, contributing citizen is probably one of the most powerful tools we have in our arsenal. I look at it this way... every time I meet and make a new friend as a transgendered person, I hand them a weapon to use on our behalf as well. If and when the conversation within their own social circle turns toward transgendered persons and incorrect (stereotypical) comments are made about us are made, those persons whom we have befriended can say, "I know a trans-woman. She is articulate and intelligent. Never once has she said anything remotely sexually explicit and she always presents herself modestly. I can say with certainty that your stereotype comments are incorrect based on my own knowledge with my real life interaction with a transgendered person and not some internet exploitation site." I still contend the more often we are seen out having a meal, getting our car washed, buying groceries, taking a walk, whatever it is we have to do to survive on a day-to-day basis, the better off we will be in the long run. People will discover that we have the same basic needs as they encounter every day as well and that we pose no threat to their existence. Sure, we may wear different clothing than they may choose for themselves. So do Emo's and punks. So what? What's so wrong with that? I can dream. But more importantly, I can do my little part to make my dream come true. And the best part is that I have met some amazing people along the way.
Fulltime girl on the inside.
Lipstick=confidence
[SIZE=4]Holly[/SIZE]
You have a point and I'm sure some SOs are spooked with this aspect of the CDing. But, many GGs (myself included) know our partners aren't into it for sex with men or other CDs and we do trust them, even though we are all to familiar with the plethora of smut sites and admirers out there.
One of the other reasons that I don't think was mentioned in this thread is that we GGs are also afraid of societal judgment. We can put on a brave face and say that we don't care what others think, but deep down the thought of potentially being ostracized or of having friendship doors closed to us that would otherwise be open is a daunting reality that is difficult to face. We are just as much afraid of repercussions as are the CDers who choose to stay in the closet. I do go out regularly with my SO dressed. But, there are many people in my life that I am reluctant to tell.
Holly ... you bring up a beautiful point in your post #92. Your solution is really the only way to go, in order to bring about meaningful change.
Reine
I have never been afraid of societal judgement, I don't care how people judge me when they see me out with or know about Nigella. As for friends..well I look on it in this way, if they were really friends then they wouldn't close the doors....and yes it did happen, with one couple, I believe this was done because of the strong religious beliefs that they had.
Sandra
Administrator
I always used to rib you about your legs can't anymore. R.I.P Sexy Legs
R.I.P Rianna
But Sandra ... you're a gem among the rest!
I guess I should have said "most" GGs are concerned about societal bias. Not "all". It is very much a concern for me and others, although not enough to walk away from my SO or impose all kinds of rules.
But, as you say, there are also people who don't give a hoot.
Last edited by ReineD; 02-07-2011 at 03:14 PM.
Reine
Holly, I'm suprised you would ask this. Crossdressing is usually about far more than "clothing choices". For many, it's about identity, not necessarly identifying "as" a female, but often "with" females......How have we allowed clothing choices to become so powerful?.....
And because much of crossdressing is connected to eroticism and very often in an unbalanced way. Just check the internet. Most all of us have dressed because of the turn-on factor. (Just watch how many will say "Not me!!!) Now, large ocean going vessels usually have more than one engine that drives them and in our case, our drives can be multiple engines, ie identity and just liking certain colors, looks and feels, as well as erotic. So when our SO's find out that we like being in the female role in dress, identity and/or sex, it shatters life long ideas of how to relate. It doesn't fit the ingrain natural pattern. That doesn't mean that it's bad or something is wrong with us, but we struggle with that ourselves, how much more they may struggle. This struggle is what tears up relationships more than the crossdressing itself.
When we go out in public, the public can see it as being a form of exhibitionism and who knows if it is or not, except for the person him/herself. It's the perseption others see.
I think the only way to change the perspective others can see, is to open up when possible and let them see inside our hearts, that we are good people - complex genderwise - but genuine good people. And that would mean showing respect to others and letting them see we may be different, but we nontheless have a good and healthy balance in our lives.
Joni
"Yes, to dance beneath the diamond sky with one hand waving free" Bob Dylan
[QUOTE=Jo
And because much of crossdressing is connected to eroticism and very often in an unbalanced way. Just check the internet. Most all of us have dressed because of the turn-on factor. (Just watch how many will say "Not me!!!)
I think the only way to change the perspective others can see, is to open up when possible and let them see inside our hearts, that we are good people - complex genderwise - but genuine good people. And that would mean showing respect to others and letting them see we may be different, but we nontheless have a good and healthy balance in our lives.[/QUOTE]
I'd disagree, but I'd be lying. I know for me when I started years ago, it was erotic. The feel of the fabrics and different tensions of the clothing on my body, as well as, the whole "societal taboo." Over the years, it has become what I think it was meant to be for me. comfortable. I am as comfortable en femme as in drab. I still love the feeling of the clothing, but its more like a hug from an old freind than erotic.
I deal with perception on a daily basis in my profession. To change perception requires education and knowledge.
Holly: It's been two years and I've rehashed this with my wife and a psychologist (who, btw is very good with transgender issues). I don't know if I can put it as succinctly as my wife but she tells me that the brain is the largest sex organ. If I want to pretend I'm a female (sometimes) she is creeped out because no matter what I tell her, she claims she will never know when I am "feeling female" and it could very well be during sex. That brings the lesbian aspect into the picture (from her perspective). She also claims that she is attracted to a macho-type man and after seeing me (and some photos) of me enfemme, the sex appeal she once felt towards me is no longer there. It does not help that she has done extensive research and some crossdressers have admitted to having such thoughts (female) during sex.
Oh Holly. I have come back to this thread over and over again. Trying to find the answers in my head and make some sense. But the answers lay in my heart so here goes.... taking the lying, deceit, etc out of it..... There is nothing intricately wrong with cross-dressing that education would not fix IMHO. I know this is a very simple answer to a complex question but that is the only thing that changed my POV. Learning about cross-dressing itself and the people who live with dressing themselves or via a loved one. I truly wish I was a wise woman who could give a very educated answer but I am not a highly educated woman. I'm just a woman who loves her SO and refused to walk away without one hellva' fight to make things right between us again.
I found my own truth about this the long way around because it wasn't offered up freely [I won't go into that right now] I have struggled with the answers to this many times and talked with my DH and the others I have met here and slowly began to see things. I could see my husband again and not some big question mark that I was afraid of. I could see the one I loved best in the world without fear. The unknown being a very scary thing in itself. I learned to face my fears day by day and I found I could "see" my love again because I was once again looking with my heart and not just my eyes. It didn't matter overly much any more what he did or didn't wear. Whether he shaved twice a day or not at all. I saw him as the most beautiful person I know because love sees with the heart and not the eyes.
So I guess the short answer is there isn't a dam thing wrong with it Holly.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Okay, I'll weigh in with a GG opinion:
Logically, there should be nothing wrong with a man wearing women's clothing or cosmetics, yet it is still a taboo and shocking to many people. Perhaps much of it has to do with the fact that in our society, boys are told from birth onwards that they are not to act like girls in any way--nothing is more insulting to a boy than to be labeled a sissy (the message being that girls are weak and inferior). He is told not to cry, not to play with dolls, and that bullying is just "boys being boys", and to fight back. Okay, I'm generalizing and not everybody raises their boys this way, but it is pretty pervasive in our culture, especially in the past decades. This attitude is known to everybody--girls see boys being told to act a certain way, so they have expectations, and it becomes ingrained to expect the male to present as a male, and if he presents as a female or emulates a female, it goes against everything she's every been taught.
Maybe because men have traditionally held the power in society, they have viewed the idea that a man who would want to emulate the inferior half of the species is crazy, and implies that he is weak. I think Reine's idea that women may be programmed (subconsciously) to look for hunters and providers, not just reproductive mates, is an interesting notion. There is probably a lot going on in our attitudes that are hard-wired into our brains, and were relevant thousands of years ago, but not relevant now. Yet they still linger.
Also remember that in some societies, a woman absolutely would not be allowed to dress as a man, and it has only been in the last century that women in our country could dress in pants. My mother, who is in her 80s, told me how much she longed to wear pants as a child, and was only allowed to on certain occasions, and it was quite a point of contention growing up. So perhaps as a society we are simply evolving, and people will look back on us and wonder how it was that people were beaten up or divorced for simply wanting to wear a dress.
Mimi
Eryn's GG
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