Page 4 of 5 FirstFirst ... 2345 LastLast
Results 76 to 100 of 106

Thread: A Simple Question...

  1. #76
    Member Brynna M's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Maryland
    Posts
    370

    some of the ideas above seem interesting

    I think it's the idea of a man presenting as female. Many men are to a greater or lesser degree afraid of being attracted to another man. Men trying to appear like women only heighten the fear that one day they will be attracted to a woman only to discover "she" is male. As for women, though I never thought about it, I liked the idea presented earlier that we are stepping on women's toes so to speak and there is probably some perception that we or doing it for reasons that would be disapproved of (attracting men to a homosexual encounter or deriving some deviate sexual pleasure). I would guess the thought process goes like this; we are using women's appearance (which we are) and it is assumed we are doing it for negative reasons (which in general we are not) and possibly giving anyone who looks like a woman a bad name or at least make people question the motives or someone who appears female.

    My random theories aside.. My fiance and i discussed it (she's not a fan but we are still together). Her concerns were that I was only doing it to attract men and that I would end up eventually either being gay or wanting to transition and she would lose the relationship. Also she feared that she wasn't attracted to someone feminine and that may damage the relationship.

    The only other thing I will add is that in general more understanding would seem to be a good thing but visceral emotional attitudes toward things are very hard to change with education. (racism and homophobia are alive and well despite strong movements to counter them)

    my 1.5 cents. ( I someday hope to have and opinion worth 2 cents.)

  2. #77
    Aspiring Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    California
    Posts
    876

    fashion designers got into the action

    If you take a brief glance at the history of clothing, it is obvious that everything that women wear, men have worn first. In the 1350's men wore what today would be tights. Largely throughout the history men have worn fairly tight breeches or pants (cloth is expensive, difficult to make). Kings wore breeches, silk stockings, corsets, wigs, makeup and all sorts of things that are now reserved for women ONLY.
    To a large extent, we have "fashion" designers who have influenced what society wears and considers to be gender appropriate. There are modern designers who have tried the androgynous look (see Pejic in a dress, he wears no forms or bra, but is impressive looking as a model). Over thec enturies, design changes, what is in fashion goes out of fashion, the everyday work has become so much more different that simplicity becomes the norm. When I first went to college, I wore a coat, tie,slacks, shoes socks and yes, even underwear. Today, the kids who go to that same college wear clothing that is either black, torn, exceedingly small, dirty, they wear chains, hobnailed boots, purple hair, you name it--but very few women wear dresses!
    So a guy in a dress not only sticks out, he doesn;t conform to society's current fashion on an everyday level. The pervert part we already get. It may get even more difficult is coming years as more and more women wear "mens' fashions" to the exclusion of their fashion which could easily disappear. blending is about the only real way to do it on a daily basis for crossdressers.
    There is always haute couture in NYC or LA or SF or London, but is not the norm these days.
    If fashion designers are able to turn around what the average joe wears, things might happen, but looking at the number of people who seem to be les and less educated, I have no great hopes. The predicament for crossdressers is also worldwide, so perception is a great part of the problem. If we were to succeed in more public dressing, it could be that we would get what the glbt are getting, some acceptance, out of sight, out of mind kind of acceptance.
    Just having a look at what people react to polically and the sorts of people that make the news these days, should give everyone a clue about how they are going to be accepted as crossdressers. Don't think for a minute that someone like Sarah Palin wouldn't be having a field day with crossdressers--it's UNGODLY, what we do.
    We have a number of memebrs here from around the world, and pretty much it is the same story--we are if not hated, certainly despised for the creeps that we appear to them to be.
    The lie we've been told over and over again they we are sophisticated, rich, the greatest nation in the world, was simply a lie from the ministry of propaganda (aka the WH press office). We made assumptions that educated people would be more open intellectually and more accepting of alternate anythings, but I rather doubt that many of us sexigenarians (that's people over 60) will live to see the day.
    So, keep dressing in your closets, run to the malls when you can, and enjoy you time on earth. THe journey's the thing, not the destination.
    Last edited by busker; 02-04-2011 at 02:19 AM.

  3. #78
    GG ReineD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Samsara
    Posts
    21,091
    Quote Originally Posted by busker View Post
    Largely throughout the history men have worn fairly tight breeches or pants (cloth is expensive, difficult to make). Kings wore breeches, silk stockings, corsets, wigs, makeup and all sorts of things that are now reserved for women ONLY.
    I know you're just making a side point, but I'd like to comment because your point has been made many times in this forum.

    It's important to remember that even though in past centuries rich men (not the peasants) wore brocade, ruffles, heels, feathers, wigs, etc, their dress style was masculine for their time and still very different from feminine styles. And men's motives for wearing wigs, ruffles, heels, etc were different than they are today.

    Attachment 151124 Attachment 151125

    A man wearing a gown such as Madame Sophie's here would have been looked at with raised eyebrows. The comparison shouldn't be between female styles now and male styles then, but how the styles differentiate male from female within the same time period.
    Last edited by ReineD; 02-04-2011 at 12:17 PM.
    Reine

  4. #79
    Aspiring Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    California
    Posts
    876

    well, but, couldn't it be, .....

    Quote Originally Posted by ReineD View Post
    I know you're just making a side point, but I'd like to comment because your point has been made many times in this forum.

    It's important to remember that even though in past centuries rich men (not the peasants) wore brocade, ruffles, heels, feathers, wigs, etc, their dress style was masculine for their time and still very different from feminine styles. And men's motives for wearing wigs, ruffles, heels, etc were different than they are today.

    Attachment 151124 Attachment 151125

    A man wearing a gown such as Madame Sophie's here would have been looked at with raised eyebrows. The comparison shouldn't be between female styles now and male styles then,[SIZE="4"] but how the styles differentiate male from female within the same time period.[/SIZE]
    Hi Reine,
    Well, I glad I've fallen in with like-minded folks. Your point is well-taken, but then how is that the dress of both genders today is drifting together? Women have been wearing pants now for perhaps 100 years, a little (I actually have photographs of women dressed as men from around 1900), more though since the 20's when Garbo and Dietrich began wearing them and made them fashionable. Garbo originally wore them in a movie, liked them and began to wear them regularly perhaps to express that "bi" personality we ofter hear about with regard to her sex life. She was very popular and was able to pull it off. Hepburn came much later. It is still ILLEGAL in Paris in 2011 for women to wear pants--the French government has turned a blind eye.
    If we talk about differentiating styles, why do women insist on wearing pants with a zipper in front? There in nothing there that requires a zipper for an exit. Shouldn't the zipper be on the side, back or none? So if fact, the styles of pants today DO NOT differentiate males and females. SO why not creat dresses for men, which have no accomodation for breasts (CDs probably wouldn't wear them), just flat fronts with all the rest of the fashion intact? The new androgynous male model Pejic can be seen wearing such dresses. Why do women get to wear shorter--much shorter--shorts than men, and why do men who wear shorter shorts get labeled as "fags"? Shouldn't shorts just be shorts without sexual context?
    Men wear toupees but wigs are taboo? It is OK for both sexes to have an "Afro" so where is the differentiation? The pointed comb?
    Popular culture and entertainment make many things acceptable, so maybe we need more movies of drag queens, more festivals, more of everything that shows lifestyle diversity.
    I recently saw Tootsie and I think it is a movie the general public can get behind in the dislike for men in dresses and what happens when two "men" get together. The Hoffman character wasn't a success (in his acting career or in his personal life) and I read the subtle message about homophobia and crossdressing to be a major part of the movie. That is of course, my personal interpretation.

  5. #80
    GG ReineD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Samsara
    Posts
    21,091
    Quote Originally Posted by busker View Post
    but then how is that the dress of both genders today is drifting together?
    I agree, we seem to be adopting a universal androgynous style: jeans, Tshirts, and sneakers. Even so, when we go to the mall, we know who are the girls and who are the boys. The differences are more subtle than the clothes, although stylish fashions certainly do enhance femininity. And masculinity.

    I was just making a point about 18th C clothing against the argument of using past male fashions as a justification for saying that men should be able to wear the same thing now. To say that leggings, lace, and ruffles could be considered men's clothing now (I know you didn't say this, but others have) just because they were centuries ago is not a solid argument.

    I agree that we all should have the freedom to dress as we please. And if there was a demand for male dresses and skirts, the designers and the fashion industry would be right on it. But, there isn't ... unless you consider male sarongs and kilts that are already a part of some cultures, historically. There have been attempts at getting manskirts off the ground (from several high fashion designers), but I guess they just haven't been popular. Fashions come into popular culture when there is a demand for them. Not the other way around.

    I asked the question once and posted links to several manskirt pics, if the CDs here would wear them. Most said, "Ugh, no. Not feminine enough". If you go into the Gallery, most pics are definitely not attempts at portraying a man in a dress.

    As to women wanting to wear pants: they did so because they disliked unequal social standards, not because they wanted to present as men. Women wanted to be seen as equals and they wanted the same freedoms that men had. This also meant wearing pants, since wearing dresses restrict the freedom of movement.

    And as to the zipper: it is much easier to take the pants off, if they are not made of stretchy material. Women have a lower hip/waist ratio, and this is the biggest difference between male & female jeans. It's a subtle difference, I know, but when you just look at the derrière, you can tell from the back if a person is a she or a he (if he's not wearing hip pads).

    Edit - I agree that the more there are positive portrayals of TGs in the media, the more CDing will be understood and hopefully social anxiety about it will diminish. But, I don't think greater understanding will make more males want to wear feminine skirts, if they are not TG to begin with.
    Last edited by ReineD; 02-04-2011 at 03:39 PM.
    Reine

  6. #81
    Hot Blooded Space People Ash Leland's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    113
    Just last night I went to this meet and greet thing for elementary education majors and the faculty of the education department and I couldn't help but wonder, where exactly could I teach middle school and dress at the same time? To the best of my knowledge, nowhere.

    A lot of great points have been raised here. I particularly agree with Tania and Suzy. What makes the Ideal Male so monolothic is that, for a lot of people, it's one of the first dynamics they encounter in family life. At the risk of sounding cynical, most long-lived marriages that I know of have a dominant partner and a submissive partner, and I've never meant an entirely happy submissive. There always seems to be an element of suffering, but that's beside the point. What I was getting at was that lots of people grow up in families that have a firmly established hierarchy, and the father is often at the top. So there are a lot of people thinking that hierarchy is the key to order and security, and invariant masculinity is essential to it. When these people see a crossdresser, their basic idea of order is being threatened. This is particularly evident in the fact that people who are not typically gendered are usually kept from working in close proximity to children (hence my worries about getting a teaching job)- children are still forming their conceptions of the world and no one wants them to learn that gender variance is okay.

    I liked what Suzy said because it has two interesting dimensions- the first being that things that are sexually appealing to males generally are accepted and encouraged, but when people see a crossdresser who is not so attractive, the sexual aspect goes away for them and they see the behavior on it's own, which they naturally despise. The subtext seems to be "do whatever you want, gender bend all you want so long as you do it in a way that's appealing to us"....then, as wbradm pointed out, there's the hairy issue of whether or not being attracted to a crossdresser makes one straight or gay or what (naive I know, but common).
    Last edited by Ash Leland; 02-04-2011 at 03:31 PM.

  7. #82
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Posts
    1,013
    Bunker,

    I think what Renie is trying to say is that for some here , it's not just the clothing or the emulating that defines Fashion ( clothing ) ..Just as I mentioned in another post ,..I can wear mens jeans a t-shirt put the hair and make-up on and look every bit as femme then in womens appearal .. But that doesn't work for me and has nothing to do with satisfying the Cding urge. Yes I can look femme in mens clothing but the feel is different .. For me it has to be the female clothing .

    I can not explain why and it is only certain female clothing that works so maybe it's more of a fetish I have developed when I was 3 years old. I have no clue other than how these certain female clothing feels to my male body..
    Last edited by Lucy_Bella; 02-04-2011 at 04:01 PM.
    I do not!! Claim to be an expert on any topic, when I post a new thread or reply on any thread my imput is strickly that of a crossdresser. Not to offend Gay people , Transexuals or any other life style, I am only commenting on one of my own.

  8. #83
    Silver Member Jonianne's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Tidewater, Virginia USA
    Posts
    2,102

    "pile of misinformation out there"

    Quote Originally Posted by Holly View Post
    .....If there is any reoccuring theme in this discussion, it seems to be that there is a pile of misinformation out there.....
    Thank you Holly for this thread. Talking about it does help us to get to some possible answers.

    I think as far as the "misinformation out there", we have to try to sort out what exactly is misinformation and what is not. I think sometimes in trying to deny or mimimize the sexual aspect, we end up sounding disinguenious to others outside of our community, especially when most of what they see about crossdressing is evidence otherwise. I think it's important to acknowledge that, yes, probably most cd'ers do find that there is often an erotic componant in dressing and, for some, that is the only reason for crossdressing. While others, as in your case, it does fade with time and with others, as myself, there will always likely be a mix of many reasons.

    I think the truth that does need to get out, however, is that most of us are reasonable and in control. Most of us do care and respect how others see us and would never want to do anything to hurt or bring shame upon our family. Most of us are ordinary loving people that mind our own business. That's why you only see the extremes and don't see the majority of us who do try to keep the balance of meeting our needs within the bounds of meeting the needs of our loved ones.

    I think the real "misinformation" comes from being painted by the broad brush of negativity and that is very hard to change.


    Quote Originally Posted by Joann Smith View Post
    I honestly think that society in general views crossdressing as bad because ...we as a group (crossdressers, trans...ect ) do nothing to challange those preceptions...We hide and sneek around lie about it and deny. ..We let the media get away with degrading crossdressers and transfolk.. and assoiate this activtie with all other kinds of perverted acts that in many instances has nothing with crossdressing.

    We as a group are in part to blame for our own bad image through our and inaction and shame.

    Joann
    Well said.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sandra View Post
    True to a point, some trans folk are out there and trying to correct things...I'll throw in the way that some trans folk dress. You walk down the street and see a trans person in a short skirt/dress, killer heels made up to the nines, and popping into Tescos lol in other words they stand out, ok they may want to but some in society views this as just not right and tar all trans with the same brush. No doubt some of you will jump in and say I don't dress like that but still have had altercations in the street...IMHO this has probably happened because you have been tarred with the brush.

    It only takes a few people to say "did you see this or that" and word gets around, and you get the comments " It's not right, they must be up to no good, they are just plain weird, they are perverts etc" We've all heard it.

    ......Society is very blinkered at times and it takes us a a group to open those blinkers and try to educate more.

    Dunno if this makes any sense or not.
    Sandra, it makes all the sense in the world to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mimi View Post
    Okay, I'll weigh in with a GG opinion:

    Logically, there should be nothing wrong with a man wearing women's clothing or cosmetics, yet it is still a taboo and shocking to many people. Perhaps much of it has to do with the fact that in our society, boys are told from birth onwards that they are not to act like girls in any way--nothing is more insulting to a boy than to be labeled a sissy (the message being that girls are weak and inferior). He is told not to cry, not to play with dolls, and that bullying is just "boys being boys", and to fight back. Okay, I'm generalizing and not everybody raises their boys this way, but it is pretty pervasive in our culture, especially in the past decades. This attitude is known to everybody--girls see boys being told to act a certain way, so they have expectations, and it becomes ingrained to expect the male to present as a male, and if he presents as a female or emulates a female, it goes against everything she's every been taught....
    Mimi, I think you have a good understanding of what's' going on.

    How do we remidy the "misinformation"?

    Being dead level honest with ourselves is the first step. Being honest in our relationships. Work on self-acceptance and letting go of the false shame and guilt, but owning up to the real guilt we may have by our selfishness. Then being as open as we can (within our ability and within reason) with others and letting them get to know us. Obviously we are not going to change the world, but we can be a light in our little corner of it.
    Last edited by Jonianne; 02-05-2011 at 06:55 PM.
    Joni

    "Yes, to dance beneath the diamond sky with one hand waving free" Bob Dylan

  9. #84
    Gold Member NicoleScott's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Mississippi
    Posts
    5,000
    Could it be that we, through evolution, are predisposed to repel or reject gender-bending activities?
    I saw a TV show in which 20 or so volunteers were asked to smell t-shirts worn by random people, and rate the smell along a scale from repulsive to attractive. What the participants didn't know is that the researchers included a shirt worn by a blood relative. It turns out that the shirts worn by blood relatives were consistently rated among the most repulsive. What's up with this? The hypothesis (theory? I'm not a scientist) is that nature, through evolution, uses our sense of smell and production of certain chemcals to reject blood relatives as potential sexual partners because...well, they stink. We don't realize it, but we are programmed to avoid incest. Nature knows that a blood relative isn't the best choice to mix genes with for carrying on a strong, healthy species. Our brains processed what our noses took in. Our brains also process what our eyes and ears take in. Could it be that when we see gender-bending behavior, our brains set up defenses?

  10. #85
    Aspiring Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    California
    Posts
    876

    cotton in their noses?

    Quote Originally Posted by NicoleScott View Post
    Could it be that we, through evolution, are predisposed to repel or reject gender-bending activities?
    I saw a TV show in which 20 or so volunteers were asked to smell t-shirts worn by random people, and rate the smell along a scale from repulsive to attractive. What the participants didn't know is that the researchers included a shirt worn by a blood relative. It turns out that the shirts worn by blood relatives were consistently rated among the most repulsive. What's up with this? The hypothesis (theory? I'm not a scientist) is that nature, through evolution, [SIZE="4"]uses our sense of smell and production of certain chemcals to reject blood relatives as potential sexual partners because...well, they stink. We don't realize it, but we are programmed to avoid incest. Nature knows that a blood relative isn't the best choice to mix genes with for carrying on a strong, healthy species.[/SIZE] Our brains processed what our noses took in. Our brains also process what our eyes and ears take in. Could it be that when we see gender-bending behavior, our brains set up defenses?
    I guess the European Royals had cotton in their noses and no tastebuds on their tongues. Their gene-pool is so shallow a flea could swim its length. Some of kings were queens, some had big jaws (Hapsburg jaw) and yes, there were crossdressers among them, and one slasher, at least.

    Curious about the "odor test". Though I could never smell my own "scent", my ex was highly sensitive to it, and always talked about my "smell". I guess I did stink after all. GRH! (= gaffaw right here)

  11. #86
    Platinum Member Eryn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    SoCal
    Posts
    12,398
    Quote Originally Posted by Holly View Post
    Just what makes these gender roles "essential" and who made that determination?
    Mother Nature. The big strong ones who didn't bear the young were the ones assigned the protection and provisioning roles. They were more expendable. This isn't true in the modern context, but the point being discussed was the origin of these gender roles.

    Quote Originally Posted by Holly View Post
    If women have been able to accomplish this, what is holding men back from doing the same thing?
    The main thing that pushed women into wider roles was the world wars. Once the myth was "women couldn't do mens work" was broken many women didn't want to go back to their traditional role. Unfortunately there has not been any similar defining event (and I can't think of any possibility of one) that allows men to break out of their traditional roles.

  12. #87
    Aspiring Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    California
    Posts
    876

    yeah, man skirts--uuggghhhh!

    Quote Originally Posted by ReineD View Post

    I was just making a point about 18th C clothing against the argument of using past male fashions as a justification for saying that men should be able to wear the same thing now. Well, I was just saying that men wore them first. To say that leggings, lace, and ruffles could be considered men's clothing now (I know you didn't say this, but others have) just because they were centuries ago is not a solid argument. We're always back and forth with styles, so it could be used as a reason to do it. Because the Magna Carta is a 1000 years old, doesn't mean that we should discard it's principles. Or have we?

    I agree that we all should have the freedom to dress as we please.We do have the freedom of dress, just not dresses. Men's clothing can be so, what's the word I want here, DRAB? And if there was a demand for male dresses and skirts, the designers and the fashion industry would be right on it. But, there isn't There might be but becasue so many of us are in the closet, one would never be able to find out exactly.... unless you consider male sarongs (for us ,it should be spelled SO WRONGS) and kilts that are already a part of some cultures, historically. There have been attempts at getting manskirts off the ground (from several high fashion designers), but I guess they just haven't been popular. Fashions come into popular culture when there is a demand for them. Not the other way around.

    I asked the question once and posted links to several manskirt pics, if the CDs here would wear them. Most said, "Ugh, no. Not feminine enough". If you go into the Gallery, most pics are definitely not attempts at portraying a man in a dress.

    As to women wanting to wear pants: they did so because they disliked unequal social standards,so, by the same token, men who didn't want to manly, should have been encouraged to wear dresses, n'est pas? not because they wanted to present as mensome may have, Lesbos has been around a long time.. Women wanted to be seen as equals are we speaking here of post world-war 2? and they wanted the same freedoms that men had what's that, 2 hour commute, 9 hours at work, another 2 hour commute? just kidding here. This also meant wearing pants, since wearing dresses restrict the freedom of movementactually, women run much faster in a dress, though there is a modesty issue which is what I think you meant FoM, or in 1900, certainly a weight issue, what will all the petticoats and such, garters, corsets! GRH (=gaffaw right here).

    And as to the zipper: it is much easier to take the pants off, if they are not made of stretchy material. Women have a lower hip/waist ratioare you talking about vertical measurement?, and this is the biggest difference between male & female jeansmy waist is 37, hips 39; women's size ten as shown in size charts w32, hips 39(which I wear and they fit like a glove so I don't understand that.. It's a subtle difference, I know, but when you just look at the derrière, you can tell from the back if a person is a she or a he (if he's not wearing hip pads).I actually like to look at the face first if possible. It's a dead giveaway, and I don't have to even bend my neck. LOL

    Edit - I agree that the more there are positive portrayals of TGs in the media, the more CDing will be understood and hopefully social anxiety about it will diminish. But, I don't think greater understanding will make more males want to wear feminine skirts, if they are not TG to begin with.
    Yes, that is is in a nutshell. No point to wearing something for males if one wants to be a crossdresser. I think to a larger degree, the public doesn't like to be fooled and lured into things not of their making. CDers will never have a regular spot in any society. We are consigned to the closet or braving the known world and enjoying our little escapades. Though we are told there are infinite shades of grey, there really is very little to distinguish black from white as far as general (many exceptions though) society is concerned.
    my 2 francs worth

  13. #88
    Silver Member linnea's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Montana
    Posts
    2,530
    Quote Originally Posted by SherriePall View Post
    I think it is because we upset the apple cart. If we look halfway decent then straight men have mixed feelings towards the woman they see if they realize that woman is actually a man. We threaten their sexual bearings. Rather than being their problem, they put the blame on us for creating those confusing thoughts they're having.

    That's my opinion at least for this moment.
    I think that Sherrie's point hits a big part of the reason; a woman friend of mine who was visiting San Francisco went to a small grocery store one morning. She wanted coffee and a sweet roll. The person who checked her out was TG; the woman said it made her angry. The TG did not act out in any way, just rang up the coffee, etc. and thanked the woman for shopping there.
    But it made her angry, just that individual being TG and presenting as a female.
    warmly, Linnea

  14. #89
    Gold Member NicoleScott's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Mississippi
    Posts
    5,000
    Quote Originally Posted by busker View Post
    I guess the European Royals had cotton in their noses and no tastebuds on their tongues. Their gene-pool is so shallow a flea could swim its length. Some of kings were queens, some had big jaws (Hapsburg jaw) and yes, there were crossdressers among them, and one slasher, at least.

    Curious about the "odor test". Though I could never smell my own "scent", my ex was highly sensitive to it, and always talked about my "smell". I guess I did stink after all. GRH! (= gaffaw right here)
    Sometimes individual circumstances (stupidity, adherence to tradition, etc) trumps nature.
    The smell test to avoid incest: it's subconscious; we don't know it's happening. It's really not about stink (maybe I oversimplified it); it's the brain saying "I don't like it. This person's not for me."

  15. #90
    Gold Member TxKimberly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Austin Texas area
    Posts
    6,378
    Great thread Holly!

    You know, I get irritated when I encounter people that think cross dressing is all about sex, or that all cross dressers are sexual "deviants", but I guess I can't fault them for thinking so. There I stand, shouting to the world at the top of my lungs "THAT IS NOT WHAT BEING A CROSS DRESSER OR TRANSSEXUAL IS ABOUT!" and what happens? Sure as hell someone posts explicit pictures in their avatar or their comments on my flickr or facebook accounts showing either their privates or them in the act of giving or getting a blow job, thus undermining the message I try so hard to put out there. THAT'S what I hate about it, and that's gotta be a huge part of why our SO's and others are so reluctant to come around.

  16. #91
    Silver Member linnea's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Montana
    Posts
    2,530
    I just saw this and most of what I would have said (and a lot more) has already been expressed; I think that fear based on ignorance is what drives most non-accepting people's reactions. It's different from many people's experience and the differences frighten, madden, and worry them. Some worry because they think that they might find it appealing and they can't handle that. Others just don't want anything upsetting their world-view; still others protect their world-view/beliefs by shunning anything that seems to them to be peculiar or that they have never heard of before.
    Thank you for raising the question, Holly!
    warmly, Linnea

  17. #92
    Unofficial CD Mom Holly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    In between states.
    Posts
    8,038
    Quote Originally Posted by TxKimberly View Post
    ...I get irritated when I encounter people that think cross dressing is all about sex, or that all cross dressers are sexual "deviants", but I guess I can't fault them for thinking so...
    Yes, this gets to me as well. But I agree, it's hard to fault them. Overcoming stereotypes is a long process. And those of us in the TG community are not the only targets of stereotyping. Blacks fight being thought of as being inferior. Hispanics fight being thought of as lazy. Women fight to be treated equally. We fight for acceptance. The good news is that there has been improvement in all these areas including our own. So you, dear lady, keep getting out there and screaming at the top of your lungs. Educating the masses as to who we really are is the key to keep us moving forward. And modeling the behavior of a good, moral, contributing citizen is probably one of the most powerful tools we have in our arsenal. I look at it this way... every time I meet and make a new friend as a transgendered person, I hand them a weapon to use on our behalf as well. If and when the conversation within their own social circle turns toward transgendered persons and incorrect (stereotypical) comments are made about us are made, those persons whom we have befriended can say, "I know a trans-woman. She is articulate and intelligent. Never once has she said anything remotely sexually explicit and she always presents herself modestly. I can say with certainty that your stereotype comments are incorrect based on my own knowledge with my real life interaction with a transgendered person and not some internet exploitation site." I still contend the more often we are seen out having a meal, getting our car washed, buying groceries, taking a walk, whatever it is we have to do to survive on a day-to-day basis, the better off we will be in the long run. People will discover that we have the same basic needs as they encounter every day as well and that we pose no threat to their existence. Sure, we may wear different clothing than they may choose for themselves. So do Emo's and punks. So what? What's so wrong with that? I can dream. But more importantly, I can do my little part to make my dream come true. And the best part is that I have met some amazing people along the way.
    Fulltime girl on the inside.
    Lipstick=confidence

    [SIZE=4]Holly[/SIZE]

  18. #93
    Just me being me! Staci K's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Vancouver/Portland area
    Posts
    117

    Relational Thinking

    Hello Everyone,

    Off-topic - Currently I've been working with a therapist to further my self-acceptance. Along with the sessions each week, I'm given homework between sessions from a workbook she had me buy entitled "Get Out of Your Mind and Into Your Life". Some of what I've learned in working in it, has given me a better understanding to why CD'ing is commonly considered taboo.

    On-topic - Humans think in relational thinking - meaning we relate one thought to another. To explain this I'll use some of the examples from my workbook:

    Think of a ficticious creature, get a picture of it in your mind. Its name is 'Gub Gub', and it makes the sound 'Whoo'. Now you know 2 pathways of relational thinking. The human mind can automatically reverse the relations. Now when you hear the name, 'gub gub', you can envision what the creature looks like. In addition, when you hear the sound, 'whoo' you will be able to envision what the creature looks like. So now you're up to four pathways. To further explain the mind's capabilities, it can also automatically connect sound 'whoo' to the name 'Oh that's a gub gub' and visa-versa. So from just learning 2 pathways, you mind has made 6 pathways using relational thinking. (See the attached graphics for visuals)

    Now putting this basic knowledge to the topic. Since humans think via relations, when a general person sees a crossdresser, they're likely to relate it to what they know:

    Ru Paul is a homosexual drag queen - widely public with a show on TV - so they relate RuPaul to me - "Oh he's gay like that guy on TV that dresses as a woman".

    For older generations, think 50's & 60's, a womans place was in the home. The man was the dominant gender - strong, protected his family, supported his family. Very few woman worked outside the home and those that did were likely secretaries and school teachers. Women were a step down on the social ladder than men. So for that generation when they see a cross-dresser, they relate it to a guy wanting to step down on the social ladder.

    Lastly, is to understand how the mind deals with things they don't understand. When confronted with something it doesn't understand, the human mind automatically takes one of two stances: it will either shun what is not understood, or laugh at what is not understood. Again relational thinking plays into how they will react - how they relate what they are confronted with that they don't understand (a crossdresser) will dictate how they respond to it: mockery, disgust, etc. etc.

    Sorry my post is kinda lengthy. In closing, in learning the psychology behind reactions received; I think it's pretty safe to assume crossdressers will never truly be accepted; however, in learning the how and why you are reacted to in the manner crossdressers are, is the true key to being able to hold your head high and let comments roll right off.

    I'm learning first hand that knowledge will set you free.

    The book information is below:

    Get Out Of Your Mind And Into Your Life
    By Stephen C Hayes, PH.D.
    ISBN-13: 978-1-57224-425-2

    Nicole

    Additional note: Oh and lets not forget to add in the 80's sitcom 'Bussom Buddies' that made crossdressing a laughing matter as one more thing to use for relational thinking.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by Staci K; 02-06-2011 at 03:39 PM. Reason: spelling corrections

  19. #94
    GG ReineD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Samsara
    Posts
    21,091
    Quote Originally Posted by TxKimberly View Post
    Sure as hell someone posts explicit pictures in their avatar or their comments on my flickr or facebook accounts showing either their privates or them in the act of giving or getting a blow job, thus undermining the message I try so hard to put out there. THAT'S what I hate about it, and that's gotta be a huge part of why our SO's and others are so reluctant to come around.
    You have a point and I'm sure some SOs are spooked with this aspect of the CDing. But, many GGs (myself included) know our partners aren't into it for sex with men or other CDs and we do trust them, even though we are all to familiar with the plethora of smut sites and admirers out there.

    One of the other reasons that I don't think was mentioned in this thread is that we GGs are also afraid of societal judgment. We can put on a brave face and say that we don't care what others think, but deep down the thought of potentially being ostracized or of having friendship doors closed to us that would otherwise be open is a daunting reality that is difficult to face. We are just as much afraid of repercussions as are the CDers who choose to stay in the closet. I do go out regularly with my SO dressed. But, there are many people in my life that I am reluctant to tell.

    Holly ... you bring up a beautiful point in your post #92. Your solution is really the only way to go, in order to bring about meaningful change.
    Reine

  20. #95
    ADMINISTRATOR Sandra's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    25,476
    Quote Originally Posted by ReineD View Post
    One of the other reasons that I don't think was mentioned in this thread is that we GGs are also afraid of societal judgment. We can put on a brave face and say that we don't care what others think, but deep down the thought of potentially being ostracized or of having friendship doors closed to us that would otherwise be open is a daunting reality that is difficult to face.
    I have never been afraid of societal judgement, I don't care how people judge me when they see me out with or know about Nigella. As for friends..well I look on it in this way, if they were really friends then they wouldn't close the doors....and yes it did happen, with one couple, I believe this was done because of the strong religious beliefs that they had.
    Sandra
    Administrator

    I always used to rib you about your legs can't anymore. R.I.P Sexy Legs

    R.I.P Rianna

  21. #96
    GG ReineD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Samsara
    Posts
    21,091
    But Sandra ... you're a gem among the rest!

    I guess I should have said "most" GGs are concerned about societal bias. Not "all". It is very much a concern for me and others, although not enough to walk away from my SO or impose all kinds of rules.

    But, as you say, there are also people who don't give a hoot.
    Last edited by ReineD; 02-07-2011 at 03:14 PM.
    Reine

  22. #97
    Silver Member Babeba's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Southern AB
    Posts
    2,191
    Hmmph! I spent a good hour or so pawing through some old 'archaeology of gender' textbooks to give a bunch of examples of prehistoric gender roles, and of course the site timed out and even though I copy-pasted, I STILL managed to lose it. Oh well, it was a bit of an essay and probably a lot more info than most of you would've wanted. If you ARE interested, let me know and I'll dig stuff out for you to read/find reccomendations based on what you're interested in.

    Going through more of the thread, though, and thinking of historical bases to reactions towards crossdressing - that was something that really spooked the pants off the Vikings and other Migration period Germanic peoples.

    They had some very specific beliefs about the natural energies in the world, and how they could combine to make things happen; these energies were gendered. Men were seen as powerful, women as negotiators (basically, that's a bit of an oversimplification, but for an example). When men and women combine - well, what's more naturally a combination of these energies than creating a child? If those energies were combined unnaturally, however - woman with woman, or man with man - the fact the combination was unnaturally manipulated meant it could be manipulated by the person doing it. Female unnaturally mated with male (it brings a whole new meaning to the word 'wizard's staff', doesn't it?) could be used for a whole host of issues, ranging from settlement defense (a rather interestingly shaped piece of wood was found in the destruction layer of a particular town in modern-day Germany) to curing nymphomania (I think many women today with a satisfying little battery powered friend will agree with that one).

    Man-on-man power was explosive (for instance, if two powerful men were talking or negotiating over a shared drink of alcohol they would have female cup bearers to break up the manliness for them) and tried to be avoided. Calling a man a homosexual, or saying he was womanly was as bad an offense as rape. There is some tantalizing evidence I've seen and would like to look into more (literature based as well as art based, on one of the Gotland stones) that men dressing as women could also 'unnaturally' combine with the masculine to create energies they could manipulate. This seems to have been kind of freaky to your average Germanic person back 1300 years ago.

    I'm thinking that since something like 80% of today's English, and many of our customs, laws and cultural bases come from the Anglo-Saxons (some of those Germanic peoples) and other Germanic peoples with the same basic pantheon and belief system stretched across Europe, it's not inconceivable that some of the modern unease about cross dressers could come from some deeply rooted cultural conviction that men dressed as women are probably scary warlocks.



    Quote Originally Posted by NicoleScott View Post
    Could it be that we, through evolution, are predisposed to repel or reject gender-bending activities?
    I saw a TV show in which 20 or so volunteers were asked to smell t-shirts worn by random people, and rate the smell along a scale from repulsive to attractive. What the participants didn't know is that the researchers included a shirt worn by a blood relative. It turns out that the shirts worn by blood relatives were consistently rated among the most repulsive. What's up with this? The hypothesis (theory? I'm not a scientist) is that nature, through evolution, uses our sense of smell and production of certain chemcals to reject blood relatives as potential sexual partners because...well, they stink. We don't realize it, but we are programmed to avoid incest. Nature knows that a blood relative isn't the best choice to mix genes with for carrying on a strong, healthy species. Our brains processed what our noses took in. Our brains also process what our eyes and ears take in. Could it be that when we see gender-bending behavior, our brains set up defenses?
    Quote Originally Posted by NicoleScott View Post
    Sometimes individual circumstances (stupidity, adherence to tradition, etc) trumps nature.
    The smell test to avoid incest: it's subconscious; we don't know it's happening. It's really not about stink (maybe I oversimplified it); it's the brain saying "I don't like it. This person's not for me."
    I read those studies, too! There was another one I saw that looked at certain alleles in the participants' genome and thinks it may be that parents with different immune systems are more likely to produce offspring who will last long enough to reproduce themselves as they'll pass on immunities to more diseases. You're likely to have a similar immune system to those people who are more closely related to you. Smell's kind of a funny sense, because it's so close to the centers where memory, emotion and the limbic system are in the brain and sometimes they stimulate each other. (Do scents sometimes trigger strong memories with you? What do you think of when you conjure up your favorite perfume? Is that emotional?)

  23. #98
    Member
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    central Ontario - in Canada eh?
    Posts
    292
    I think that our choice of wearing female clothing is a statement (or a declaration) to many people, whether we want it to be or not. Not necessarily OUR choice of statement, but none the less we seem to get tagged with it. In short, it's not just the clothing or our appearance, it's the other's interpretation of our preference of clothing or appearance.

    In an old story (of which I cannot recall the name), there was a conflict between two fictional societies. One society cracked their boiled eggs in the morning on the big side, the other on the little side, and the side they cracked it on was placed up in their egg cup. Sometimes that's all it takes.

    That's my take on it.

  24. #99
    Silver Member Babeba's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Southern AB
    Posts
    2,191
    Quote Originally Posted by AlannahNorth View Post
    I think that our choice of wearing female clothing is a statement (or a declaration) to many people, whether we want it to be or not. Not necessarily OUR choice of statement, but none the less we seem to get tagged with it. In short, it's not just the clothing or our appearance, it's the other's interpretation of our preference of clothing or appearance.

    In an old story (of which I cannot recall the name), there was a conflict between two fictional societies. One society cracked their boiled eggs in the morning on the big side, the other on the little side, and the side they cracked it on was placed up in their egg cup. Sometimes that's all it takes.

    That's my take on it.
    That sounds suspiciously like the theme of the Butter Battle Book by Dr. Seuss, which was a not-very-well-disguised criticism of the Cold War and the Arms Race. Maybe that's where Dr. Seuss got his idea of breakfast food conflict from?

  25. #100
    Member
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    central Ontario - in Canada eh?
    Posts
    292
    Babeba, yes I think that's it. A sad statement on human nature.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  


Check out these other hot web properties:
Catholic Personals | Jewish Personals | Millionaire Personals | Unsigned Artists | Crossdressing Relationship
BBW Personals | Latino Personals | Black Personals | Crossdresser Chat | Crossdressing QA
Biker Personals | CD Relationship | Crossdressing Dating | FTM Relationship | Dating | TG Relationship


The crossdressing community is one that needs to stick together and continue to be there for each other for whatever one needs.
We are always trying to improve the forum to better serve the crossdresser in all of us.

Browse Crossdressers By State