Originally Posted by SherriePall
I think that for most people they never question their gender, its one thing they understand then we come along nd upset the apple cart.
I think that for most people they never question their gender, its one thing they understand then we come along nd upset the apple cart.
Basically I was saying that if we stop focusing on what we do and what we look like and instead focus on who we are inside, that is what will come through and that is what others will identify with and accept. The essence of who we are as a person is the key and not expecting acceptance or demanding our "rights". This can only happen on a personal level, however, not a community one.
Second star to the right and straight on till morning
I am not saying it is the only reason but i do think it plays a big part in it , the androgynous look gos without any attention at all drawn to you , long skirts draw very little attention but as soon as someone wears something short there is a great deal of attention drawn to them , this even works for females but with females you can have a difference between " hey that looks nice to why are they wearing that whereas with a male wearing something provocative you are inclined to only get the "why are they wearing that" and to a certain extent it has been bad press that might have fueled this way of thinking .
Me tooDo you think those among us who tend to dress more conservatively experience less hostility? You may have a point... at least from the male side of the population.
I also wonder if women feel that then they dress how they like they have some sort of self control but may feel that a man dressed like it may have less self control due to bad press again .
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]Joanne
I totally agree with what you said. Nobody reacts at all when they see a female wearing male clothing...but do the opposite and pandemonia occurs.There are way too many males that are scared to death that they might not be male enough...hence we frighten them...and females wearing male clothing are just considered silly little beings that are being inconsequential.
Holly, I'm suprised you would ask this. Crossdressing is usually about far more than "clothing choices". For many, it's about identity, not necessarly identifying "as" a female, but often "with" females......How have we allowed clothing choices to become so powerful?.....
And because much of crossdressing is connected to eroticism and very often in an unbalanced way. Just check the internet. Most all of us have dressed because of the turn-on factor. (Just watch how many will say "Not me!!!) Now, large ocean going vessels usually have more than one engine that drives them and in our case, our drives can be multiple engines, ie identity and just liking certain colors, looks and feels, as well as erotic. So when our SO's find out that we like being in the female role in dress, identity and/or sex, it shatters life long ideas of how to relate. It doesn't fit the ingrain natural pattern. That doesn't mean that it's bad or something is wrong with us, but we struggle with that ourselves, how much more they may struggle. This struggle is what tears up relationships more than the crossdressing itself.
When we go out in public, the public can see it as being a form of exhibitionism and who knows if it is or not, except for the person him/herself. It's the perseption others see.
I think the only way to change the perspective others can see, is to open up when possible and let them see inside our hearts, that we are good people - complex genderwise - but genuine good people. And that would mean showing respect to others and letting them see we may be different, but we nontheless have a good and healthy balance in our lives.
Joni
"Yes, to dance beneath the diamond sky with one hand waving free" Bob Dylan
Identifying who (in the collective sense) is responsible for traditional societal norms is next to impossible because the origin of the norms is often lost in the mists of time. It is a little easier to identify the people who start the process of breaking down a societal norm: Rosa Parks is a name that springs to mind right now. There was a time when wearing heels was non-gender specific (some records indicate back to the time of pharaohs) but over time it has become part of a woman's fashion; I doubt that the person (or point in time) when this change occured will ever be identified. However, this is what is written on the Wikipedia entry regarding "Heel (shoes):
The late 18th-Century trend toward lower heels had much to do with the French Revolution. During the revolution, high heels became associated with opulence. Since people wished to avoid the appearance of wealth, heels were largely eliminated from the common market for both men and women. In the wake of the French Revolution heels become lower than at any time in the 18th century.
By coincidence I have just started reading Why the West Rules - For Now by Ian Morris, and it has an interesting theory as to how, why and when the roles played by the different genders divided. I have no idea if the theory is true but it was interesting to read in light of this discussion.
I'll take a stab at this. I think that it's seen as a very powerful display of abnormal sexuality. Simultaneously, a highly deluded concept of self. A public display of a highly deluded and abnormal sexual fantasy. Public masturbation.
I have no disagreement with the comments, Rhonda. However, the question that came to me reading them (and if I can be impertinent enough to speak fro Holly), the raise the questions of
(1) Why is it seen in these terms?
(2) Who decides this is the situation?
(3) How does it get changed?
I will throw this question in to stimulate further thought and discussion:
(4) Do we (the crossdressing community) really want to change the current societal situation?
The day crossdressing is seen as normal is the day that as a mass CDs accept themselves and come out of hiding and present themselves to the world with self confidence, dignity, and respect. From my observations I don't see that happening but for a very FEW rare cases.
it is cause we do not just upset the apple cart...we over turn it and tromp on the contents.
normal?..what is normal? it is what a bunch of closed minded people say we should be.
just be good borgs and keep in line. do as told and it will not hurt.
men are so stuck on how we are raised to believe in ONLY one way, and any other is just wrong, men have this masculine thing, it must not be questioned we must conform to how the mold is made even if it does not fit.
men are not to show emotion, not cry, not show pain, not this...not that...
we are supposed to drule over a pretty girl..if not then it is believed we are "gay".
we are supposed to know how to read a map, open that jar, fix the car, etc. and to not you are looked at as a lesser than needed, and in some cases shunned.
women on the other hand have a free rain on how they can act, and look and behave. yes there are still standards but are so much looser than what a guy must live with-in. but how many decades did it take for women to be able ware jeans (not slacks) in public? but they got to put on mens clothing and nobody said a word. and some even looked great while doing it.
but times do change, just look at what was a racey bathing suit 100 years back. can you imagine a modest suit by today's standards, put on a girl just 50 years ago? even the change in panties with in our life times (us older ones that is). but mens clothing has changed very little.
three piece suite, jeans and T-shirt, blue collar worker ver white collar worker. yes hem lines go up and down, but all the varied colors/styles unknown for men, styles of the out-fit, type of mtr used to make the top bottom, etc.
i will not be here in 100 years, it would be interesting to see things then?
.
I have no idea. It's learned. It's cultural. People's personal reactions to it are at least as strong, personal, and internally motivated as ours.
My own personal views are horribly out of sync with most of polite society. For instance, I happen to love high heels. Guy mode or girl mode, I think I look better in heels. I simply have no idea why it's such a taboo, but I know that it is. Same thing with long "feminine" hair. Short hair on a man is universally accepted, long hair is sometimes accepted as long as you're very careful to not do certain things to it to make it "pretty". It is beyond me how unkept long hair is marginally accepted, even as a mainstay in some highly testosterone driven settings (bikers, for instance), but do anything to make it look better (curlers, curling iron, flat iron, color) and it crosses some arbitrary boundary. Why is it that the worse my hair looks, the more easily it's accepted? It is beyond my realm of understanding.
Wow, I just re-read what I wrote. Apologies for the stream of conciousness wording.
[QUOTE=Jo
And because much of crossdressing is connected to eroticism and very often in an unbalanced way. Just check the internet. Most all of us have dressed because of the turn-on factor. (Just watch how many will say "Not me!!!)
I think the only way to change the perspective others can see, is to open up when possible and let them see inside our hearts, that we are good people - complex genderwise - but genuine good people. And that would mean showing respect to others and letting them see we may be different, but we nontheless have a good and healthy balance in our lives.[/QUOTE]
I'd disagree, but I'd be lying. I know for me when I started years ago, it was erotic. The feel of the fabrics and different tensions of the clothing on my body, as well as, the whole "societal taboo." Over the years, it has become what I think it was meant to be for me. comfortable. I am as comfortable en femme as in drab. I still love the feeling of the clothing, but its more like a hug from an old freind than erotic.
I deal with perception on a daily basis in my profession. To change perception requires education and knowledge.
I think you are right, RJ.
This IS how OTHERS perceive us.
They are wrong, of course.
As has been said before, when women "crossdress", ie, wear pants, etc., they are not emulating men when they do it. But most crossdressers, meaning male to female crossdressers, don't just toss on women's clothing. They wear wigs, makeup, fake boobs, padding.....the whole works. So it's not just clothing. People aren't objecting to the clothing per se, although if a man wears something feminine, people are likely to comment on it.
So are crossdressers only adding the other accoutrements so that they can wear these articles of clothing without drawing notice to others that they are really men? No, if that were true, deeply closeted crossdressers wouldn't bother with the boobs et al. We emulate women. Bottom line. Not all of us, but the vast majority do. It's not just the wearing of feminine clothing. We emulate women, and that's where the problem lies. The women in our lives reject it because they feel that it is inappropriate for men to appear as women, that it un-mans us. The other family members shun it because they feel it brings shame on them by association. Society at large rejects it because there is a prevailing seniment about how men should conduct themselves and appear to the rest of the world. They should be strong and independent, the protectors and providers. But they view crossdressers as lesser men, who want to really be women, and it diminishes us in their eyes, resulting in scorn and rejection.
Now, as I said, if it was only a guy wearing a poofy blouse, people are still going to comment on it. Feminine clothing is seen as something weaker than what the male ideal provides. And again, this diminishes the man who wears them, and the result is the same.
Thank goodness there are women in the world, or it would be one really stark, hard, cold world. If it weren't for femininity, I'm guessing all we'd have would be war.
Any money found in the laundry is MINE!
"This is no social crisis....this is me having fun!"
www.flickr.com/photos/tgmarla/
Ok, I'm going to be blunt and if the moderators see this as too stark, please feel free to pull this entry.
Crossdressing has, historically, been, rightly or wrongly, linked with "deviant" sexual behavior. IMHO, if we don't educate society to dissociate this piece of history from the nature of transgederism, we will continue to fight an uphill battle.
After that comes all the issues of how "manhood" is viewed and the whole concept of "slaying the dragon for one's family/mate". Breaking into that edifice scars many people (potential mates), see point 1 above!
Then we come down to society laughing at anyone who is not "the norm", whatever that is. That begins in the earliest of our social interactions, even before the start of school. Anyone who is different is feared or laughed at. Adolescent societal groups are some of the worst offenders of this kind of action.
Put is all together, and sometimes I wonder how we survive at all
Having said that, this most recent generation looks to be turning the tide on all this, and I am greatly encouraged!
tina
My previous reply brought some questions from Holly so I thought I try and answer the topic's questions concisely.
What is wrong with cross dressing?
The only thing wrong with crossdressing is society's attitude towards anyone or thing that questions that society's beliefs. The taken norm is male and female with specific roles. Male provides and protects, females bare children and provide a home. These roles are changing in some societies. Some females provide an income greater than the male and some males now provide the home. Notice I say home not a house. Other societies are heavily masculine dominated, and women are suppressed. Crossdressers seem to blend the border that seperates the sexes. They can see both points of view and in so doing some crossdressers suppress themselves from publicly revealing their role as a CD. I fear revealing too much femininity as it is not considered as "the norm".
Crossdressers differ in the percentage they actually crossdress. Some are happy with wearing a dress, some need to fully dress and act, some want to transition permanently. The common thing is we dress in some way to some degree as the opposite sex. Unfortunately in general, this is frowned on by many societies.
Why has society disapproved?
I think society disapproves of crossdressers because cd'ing disturbs society from the so called norm. If I dress in camourflage and walk down the street I appear to be accepted in some societies. If I dress in a riding outfit like dressage and walk down the street, I may attract a lot of attention. I differ from the societies accepted norm. If I walk down the street dressed in dressage during an equestrian event, I am accepted. The norm accepts my new attire if it is communicated as part of the norm by media announcing that an equestrian event is happening. It may then be accepted on whole and so my attire will be socially accepted. Maybe if a crossdresser convention took place with lots of media coverage and education, then in walking down the street dressed as female I may be accepted as "the norm". Unfortunately I negate this with the dreaded "ideal male and maybe even female" who due to a lack in wanting to learn (maybe early high school dropouts) will never accept anything that disturbs their little world. An inability to question, reason and desire to learn can only answer with verbal or physical abuse. Hence I refrain from walking down the street in my society. My society may differ from yours.
What is it about the cross dressing itself (not the lying, deceit, hiding, etc.) that threatens one-on-one relationships and tears apart families?
Breaking the Rules. Society maybe a family, group of friends, street, town, city, state, country or nation that have a list of rules and roles they want all to accept and honour. This may be considered as being loyal and respectful. Rules and roles can be challenged if knowledge can be applied effectively and accepted. Unfortunately within a closed fixed system, nothing can be allowed to question.
If there is a challenge to the rules then there must be some form of education so this challenge can be accepted. This education must be broad and correctly communicated, so if any form of media is used, then the reporters must be educated first and then society may become more accepting of anything that challenges that society's rules and accepted roles if reasoning is communicated correctly and within context.
How have we allowed clothing choices to become so powerful?
Fear? Some people dress to create fear. Some dress to impress, some groups dress in a uniform. Some dress to express their individuality. Some may even hide behind a particular style of fashion to escape society. One simple line of soldiers may consist of individuals but together they blend as one large group. If one soldier has anything different that soldier will stand out and possibly be accepted (maybe an officer) or not accepted (naughty soldier). So maybe societies in general have allowed a visualisation in accepted dress code to help hold that society's rules and roles, not to be questioned but taken as "the norm for their ideal person".
So in reality it is fear and that fear maybe lies within my questioning of my role within society and is my role acceptable as a male who dresses in such a way that I create fear in those who do not understand? Fear can be cured through education and the process in learning is being allowed to question within this forum and maybe broadly within our society. These are only my thoughts on this topic, I am not qualified to advise but I hope I provoke more thoughts in order to see the reason why I crossdress. Thanks
I know I'm speaking simplistically and in very broad terms, but the simple answer just may be that our reptilian brains (unless otherwise enlightened) view non-conformative gender and sexuality behaviors as a threat to the propagation of our species. These behaviors have been taboo in most cultures for I don't know how long. Perhaps since the beginning.
The biological norms are this: gender matches sexuality and men and women are attracted to the opposite sex. Most people do believe that gender and sexuality are tied together. This is why the first question asked to a TG is, "Are you gay?" I also think that most people outside the GLBTQ community look away the first time they see same-sex couples being sexually affectionate. But, they don't have the same gut-level feeling when they see a man and a woman kissing.
What else are we hard wired to avoid? Certain smells that alert us to a dangerous food and water supply. Unhealthy living conditions. Communicable diseases. Anything that might cause our extinction, really, if left unchecked.
Don't get me wrong, Holly ... I'm not comparing trans behaviors to pestilence or unhealthy lifestyles. I'm just trying to find a way to explain why there is such social anxiety about it.
On the plus side, we do live in an age of cognitive reasoning, and all it takes for most people is a bit of education and first-hand experience with members of the community before they lose their bias, or at least, develop some level of tolerance.
Last edited by ReineD; 01-31-2011 at 11:45 PM.
Reine
nail
on
head!
that's not entirely true.
Maybe youre familiar with Indian Hijras:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hijra_(South_Asia)
Native american Berdaches/two spirits
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-Spirit
Thai Kathoeys
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kathoey
and Eununchs in countless cultures in history
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eunuch
As far as the theory about 'reptilian' brains, I hope you're just stating what people generally believe and not that this is your opinion! The idea that men with feminine gender characteristics (not sex) are somehow less able to 'propagate' is just purely misogynistic! That kind of thinking dictates that survival of the species relies on masculine 'strength' and ability to provide. This is just silly, especially in 2011. And human sexes in general aren't even very different compared to many animals where the differences and genetic responsibilities of those animals are more clearly defined.
Last edited by Avana; 02-01-2011 at 12:28 AM.
In my very humble opinion, it's motivated by fear, and fear is usually always motivated by a lack of knowledge or understanding.
If as a man I wear bright colors (which I usually do) I stand out. I get looks - the long hair, he flowing jacket, the brightly colored scarf, with PINK in it no less - but when people get to know me, i'm usually accepted.
People in general are happy with things in neat categories, weather that's music, movies, books, or clothes. If I wear stockings, what am I? A dress? What about long hair? Is Sting a rock artist? Crossover Country? Easy Listening?
People like labels, makes the world easier to understand. The realization that all not all things fit in small, easy to recognize boxes, means one has to think and reason for oneself. That's a huge cause for fear in so many.
I think that it's really a black and white issue. All humans (in general) have a tendency to divide things into two categories; something is either this or that. Either it's good or bad, someone is black or white, conservative or liberal, it's hot or cold, you're ether gay or straight, known or unknown, heels or flats (to name just a few). As a society (in general) we are more comfortable when we can put something into a category that's one thing or another. In single religion dominated cultures, people are defined as being a part of that religion or not, not that religion or something else (for example here in some parts of the U.S. it's not uncommon to run into the opinion that you're either Christian or going to hell, no gray there for many people). The transgender dilemma (of which crossdressing is a part) makes it difficult if not impossible to categorize someone as one thing or another. Transgender individuals are by nature not black or white, easily categorized as male or female, we are gray, and human culture for the most part are uncomfortable with gray. Think about all the effort the medical community goes through to make an intersex child fit into the category of male or female. If our societies and cultures were more comfortable with diversity (more undefinable grays) I think we would find more acceptance of transgender folk. As we as a human culture become more aware and accepting of the diversity that we share, we will naturally become more accepting of those in our midst who don't fit nicely into one box or another. My two cents, for what it's worth.
Cute, I stayed at a Best Western once and it was a dump. No, I'm not a doctor either.Holly,
Thanks for posting this
I am not a DR. but I have stayed at a Holiday Inn before, ..
It's not the Clothing per say, its what it resembles how one acts when dressed or how you are percieved by others when dressed.. Walk around naked , you will be noticed, a guy wearing a dress is just a Taboo.. Nothing in this world is more natural then walking around naked . But yet it raises eye brows and can get you arrested..
There is nothing wrong in wearing clothing, are you wearing makeup as well? Are you in a wig and pumps? This is telling others that you are not JUST WEARING CLOTHING.. You are telling others you have a Femme/Masculin side that needs to be expressed. something that unless they have a Femme/Masculin side them selfs would never understand.. So without understanding you walking around or yearing the desire to express the Femme side you have are considered a freak!! Just as you would be if you were to walk around naked..
I can throw on a male pair of jeans, a male shirt.. Put a wig on ,throw some makeup on and then some heels and look just as Femme without having any female clothing exposed..
It's just clothing, sure. But it means something.
Clothing tells others which "tribe" you identify with or belong to. See two teenagers walking side by side on the street. One sporting a military style haircut, wearing khakis and a polo shirt and the other with a spiked mohawk and ripped shirt/shorts/suspenders and doc martin boots. Both the same age, same school same neighborhood. Who would you trust to watch your kids? Do you know if the punk is a valedictorian that volunteers at the local food bank or that the khaki clad lad is a juvenile delinquent? No we don't, but we as a society we pigeonhole people by how they project themselves. See a punk? He must be an anarchist bad-ass. See a man in a dress? He must be a homosexual.
That said,
Why do people fear homosexuality so much? I have no idea. Maybe everyone fears exploring their own sexuality, that they too may harbor feelings that are taboo. Best way to avoid being thought of as homosexual or different, is to shut out those that are.
Ginger
I personally believe it is because beyond the belief people have that male and female are natural opposites (and thus that same sex relations are unnatural) male homosexuality is a threat to male privilege and the masculine values that dominate most of the world. This is especially true with effeminate gay men, who receive the majority of the hate.
I believe that female homosexuality is also seen as a threat to men and masculine values, but I think in general it's more accepted for two women to have a dinner date, kiss, hold hands, etc, etc. Especially if both of those women conform to gender norms.
Yes, I am familiar with the Hijra, Berdache, Kathoey, etc. You forgot one: The Fa'afafine!
I said "taboo in most cultures". Not all. If you'd like to believe that the major cultures of the world in terms of population have and continue to embrace transgenders and homosexuals, be my guest!
The reptilian brain is responsible for our basic instincts (but since I 'm not a an expert in neuroscience, I may have used the wrong term) and yes, as stated, I submit a possible explanation as to why people in general do not embrace and champion transgenders ... and homosexuals for that matter, despite the huge progress made by the gay rights movement in recent decades.
You can say the explanation I brought forth is silly ... but it's not me that needs convincing, it's the non-supportive world.
Edit -
Many people have brought up the idea that bias exists in our society because the male privilege is compromised. Without getting into anthropological accuracy, surely the notion of male privilege is a construct of modern (ish) society? In primitive societies, wouldn't both men and women have combined their abilities in order to survive, there would have been no thought of a superior vs. an inferior gender, but rather just different bodies to fulfill different functions? And wouldn't a tribal member who could not contribute to everyone's welfare or survival be cast aside?
I'm making a mental note to read about primitive gender roles and survival practices. It's a fascinating topic.
Last edited by ReineD; 02-01-2011 at 05:22 PM.
Reine
Holly, I think an older cross-dresser may be able to answer the question on behalf of some gg's. My first true experiences as a cross-dresser were in my mid-teens. Now, I am relating to the early 1960's. This was an era when sex did not exist outside of yearning for the inaccessible young women in the neighborhood. Playboy was the sole reading material at the news stand. Anything past Playboy was porn. The Victoria Secrets advertisements that arrive in our mailbox today would be self stimulation reading back then.
Homosexuality was condemned as a sin that would get you to hell on the express train. Men with longish hair were termed 'hippies.' I remember sitting in the family car driving behind a car with two MEN sitting close with the rider having his arm on the back of the seat behind the driver. My mother and father did not hold back their views on those 'fags.' The Kinsey Report was held behind the desk at the local library. How the hell would a teenager get the nerve to check it out? There were no movies or sitcoms on television that portrayed anything but straight loving man and women lifestyles. Lucy and Desi slept in twin beds.
So, the male and female perspectives for my age group was anything deviating from the norm was deviant. Cross-dressers were viewed as homosexuals. So, I found myself in turmoil. Was I a homosexual (ugh!) because I liked putting on my mother's clothes-everything from the bras and girdles to her dresses? I drooled over the pretty girls in school, on the block, movie stars, etc. The owner of the newspaper stand yelled at me when I tried to nudge myself over to Playboy and flip the pages. "Get the hell away from there!"
So, the females in the 1960's were exposed to the same belief structure. And, as they got older they wore those poodle skirts, tight sweaters and bullet bras to attract men, who stuffed a pair of rolled up socks in the pants.
To find out your boyfriend or husband liked to dress as a woman was to find out he was gay. I think that still is the pervasive attitude. If it does not affect you, then people now tend to look the other way. Of course, there are guys who are more than willing to beat up gays and cross-dressers for no reason other than they are different.
My wife tolerates my cross-dressing. She knows after forty years that I am otherwise a nice guy. She knows I am not gay. She knows that I do not chase other women. She wishes I were a bland guy, pure vanilla, rather than a cross-dresser. As to me. I wish I was not a cross-dresser. It would have made life less complicated and less frustrating. My wife is horrified that someone will find out. Somehow it would reflect upon her? I vividly remember my wife and her cousin whispering in the kitchen thirty years ago about the cousins close friend, who lived down the block from us. She divorced her husband because she discovered he was a cross-dresser. My god, the world came to an end. Poor woman! Isn't that disgusting?
So, why would most women reject a cross-dresser? Well, we are different. It does not matter how great we are in any other facet of life. Society has conditioned both men and women to view different sexual behavior as deviant. Of course, along with gays and lesbians cross-dressers are on the express train to hell! (Chuckle, chuckle)
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