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Thread: Some thoughts about tolerance

  1. #1
    Complex Lolita...
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    Some thoughts about tolerance

    [SIZE="2"]“Tolerance is another word for indifference.” (W. Somerset Maugham)

    Do you want your crossdressing to be merely tolerated by non-crossdressers, or are you after something more substantial, like complete equality or freedom for your chosen lifestyle? In recent years, the word tolerance has been employed to pacify the alternative masses, making everyone feel nice and warm and sleepy, not realizing what’s going on. I suppose a certain amount of tolerance is SOMETHING, given with reluctance by those in power who may benefit by a public show of reassuring compassion, but shouldn’t we, as crossdressers, be less than satisfied with this token offering of insincere kindness?

    I recently read a discussion on this topic, and I came across the following words by Wendy Brown, Professor of Political Science at UC Berkeley. Her point of contention is that tolerance, by itself, is inadequate, even though everybody is in favor of it these days:
    [/SIZE]


    [SIZE="2"]“If you look closely at the etymology of tolerance, what do you see? Across every disciplinary field in which it is used, from mining, to minting, to engineering, to pharmaceutical research, to social life, tolerance is always about the management of some undesirable element or foreign body, invading or taking up residence within the host. It is about an element that one would rather not have to deal with – whether the “one” is a scientist or a social theorist or a political actor. Tolerance is always about managing some object of aversion, which is different, and different with a stigma – different is a problem. The host is neutral. The host is normal. The host is regular. The tolerated object is always, in some ways, problematic. But tolerance is not freedom, equality, or justice – rather, tolerance means permitting someone to exist within a certain set of conditions, a certain set of constraints, and a certain set of limits on behavior. (The word) is always being used to handle something or someone that is abject, subject or subordinated, and to do so in a very particular way. ”[/SIZE]

    [SIZE="2"]With that in mind, we crossdressers can expect to be “allowed” to exist in the societal framework we find ourselves burdened with, but there seems to be a problem with gaining our fair helping of tolerance. The “limits on our behavior” are discussed on this site daily, along with the societal and familial constraints we bump into over and over. How come certain groups are tolerated, but the crossdresser in one’s midst is cause for a different type of concern? Are we skirting (pun intended) the boundary between tolerance and intolerance?

    Tolerance implies a lack of bigotry, or patience with the beliefs, opinions, and practices of others. There is a certain permitted deviation from a standard (in this case what can be referred to as a “normal” human being), but we crossdressers seem to be beyond the pale, or too deviant, in the eyes of society. I mean, my neighbor might harbor tolerance for homosexuals, given the time we’re living in, yet equality for alternative sexualities is out of the question, given the PLACE we’re living in. I understand – my neighbor has children to protect and raise as normally as possible, meaning they can be expected to follow a pre-determined path in life that has nothing to do with perversity. Meanwhile, right next door, a transvestite exists, namely me, one who cannot expect any tolerance for his choice of lifestyle from the parents of young children, or society at large. My presence is a question mark, and must remain so, since, even though I am sweet and benign, I am thought of as a societal poison, dangerous to behold or even contemplate...

    Who, outside of our own community, has the grace, sympathy, compassion, mercy, sensitivity, and understanding to drop any preconceptions one may have about crossdressers? We are associated with other groups for convenience, and even marginalized within those groups due to lack of understanding. I carry a stigma of association with me (perversion), unless I pretend to not care about my place in society and frolic within my own constraints, or lack of same. Indeed, there are NO limits on my behavior, and therein lies the reason why ZERO tolerance has been shoveled in my direction. Of course, I tolerate this injustice with good humor, preferring to sidestep any attempt to contain me. In my case, tolerance may refer to enduring pain or hardship (in the form of bigoted censure), all for the good of crossdressing and its undeniable personal benefits. True equality is only a distant dream, but I can be free in private, in my own little world, and not bother with what passes for liberality. In many ways we have been “bought off” with tolerance via lip service by supposedly sincere individuals, and we remain a misunderstood “parasite” in the host body of society, same as it ever was...

    Are you satisfied with your crossdressing being merely “tolerated” in some small way, or do you want it to be tolerated with more equality? Does it matter to you, or do you not even think about it?
    [/SIZE]

  2. #2
    Boy with a girlie streak kay2's Avatar
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    What a wonderful meditation on the subject. It is not only an articulate expression of feelings about crossdressing, but it also inspires me to think about my attitudes towards others who are different. Thank you so much for the care and thought you put into this.

  3. #3
    Isn't Life Grand? AllieSF's Avatar
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    A very deep thread. I personally have experienced a tremendous amount of toleration and even some acceptance. That is my experience because I go out all the time to mainstream places and events that have nothing to do with LGBT. I am me when out as Allie. I interact with everyone. I have found almost 100% tolerance and a lot of acceptance being me and doing so unabashedly to complete strangers. Now, my experience is positive, I believe, because I am not afraid of negative consequences and show that in my interaction with others. If I was afraid to go out as much as I do, or limited my excursions to T friendly places, I may have a completely different view point. Plus, since I am a very late starter and newcomer to all this, I was also able to avoid all the growing pains, frustrations, self hate, anxieties, fear, etc. that seems to be so prevalent with those, a majority I think, who have been dealing with this all their lives.

    In answer to your final questions: I am very satisfied with my dressing being tolerated in some small way, and am more than happy that is has been tolerated totally by everyone. Now, I am not out to my family and pre-existing friends. That is not an issue for me yet, and I do not feel the need to come out to them either. I do wish that everyone else in our world would also be tolerated a lot more than they are now. Since I have no problems with the tolerance side of my activities I do not really think about it in terms of me. Though I do with regards to other's experiences. I am also one who likes to meet other newbies and not so newbies to take them out with me to show them and let them experience a little of my world when out dressed. I do believe that the more of us that are out there, the more others will be able to see, experience, learn and start tolerating and then maybe accepting us as real people not to be afraid of nor disliked.

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    Fantastic post!

  5. #5
    Member Lainie's Avatar
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    Part of the problem is that there is not one "community" but a very diverse collection of people who cross dress for numerous reasons. A lot of us change with time, discovering more about what we want and what we can tolerate in ourselves, as we gain experience. The general public is not much aware of the details, doesn't share the experience, just notices those who get the most publicity--often comedians or stereotypes or the oddest of the odd.

    Tolerance from others is the first step in what everyone really wants--acceptance. A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.

    For me, the problem is twofold: 1) my wife hates it. 2) I don't want it to define my relationships with my friends. I don't see much progress on #1 over the years, although I often recently have dressed fully en femme in unisex outfits--slacks, blouses, pullovers in her presence without drawing any notice. I'm just to timid to take a chance on #2, because you can't put the genie back in the bottle once it gets out. My friends are very tolerant in general, but I'm afraid that showing up in a skirt one time would be a much bigger deal than, say, a rare appearance in a sport coat, or shorts rather than slacks.

    As far as tolerance by the general public, I have often gone out to dinner or shopping or visiting galleries in skirt and mustache. People smile and don't make a big deal about it.

    Lainie

    You're only young once, but you can be immature forever!

  6. #6
    naughty nurse Billie Jean's Avatar
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    Just being tolerated would be a real improvement to what we recieve now. I'd like more but thats asking a lot. Billie Jean

  7. #7
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    Is tolerance enough? Hardly. Empathy,understanding and most of all warmth, combined perhaps even with humour and insight into the extent of nature's diversity must rank more highly in any relationship than mere tolerance. But empathy is a two-way process and should we not also consider the difficulties that TGs present for society in general - if only in the broad spectrum of behaviours and expectations that present within the transgendered community. It behoves us to reflect not just on the inadequacies of society but also on our own.
    [SIZE="3"][/SIZE]Sapphire

  8. #8
    Just a little mouse. Babette's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frédérique View Post
    [SIZE=2]“Tolerance is another word for indifference.” (W. Somerset Maugham) [/SIZE]

    [SIZE=2]Are you satisfied with your crossdressing being merely “tolerated” in some small way, or do you want it to be tolerated with more equality? Does it matter to you, or do you not even think about it?[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=2] [/SIZE]
    I suppose my reaction is really trying to define tolerance and by whom. In a Utopian world (a.k.a a fairy tale situation), tolerance would be complete by all and without question. This will never happen regardless of a person's lifestyle, political or religious beliefs, ethnicity, etc. It would be great to experience just once though.

    When someone asks my opinion on a word like tolerance, my mind considers it in relation to the opposite context, or in this case intolerance. The reality is that tolerance or intolerance is seldom a black or white condition. Instead, it is probably shades of gray. Let's suppose a new law is created that outlaws discrimination against trans-people. Some would consider this a victory for tolerance. Others would still suffer from the hands of people ignoring the law and hence intolerance persists. Nevertheless, the degree of movement is positive in my opinion.

    The swing toward tolerance would be monumental if any of us could walk down any street without people harassing, laughing, or resorting to violence against us. It's not a perfect situation by any means but it is certainly better than having things go the other way. I suppose others would be happier if their family members were more tolerant or accepting.

    I never expect or hope for anyone to bow before me because of who I am. I just want their respect and to trust they will not destroy my dignity or self esteem because of who I am.

    To answer Frederique's final question, yes being tolerated matters a lot to me. Many of us wouldn't be members of this forum if tolerance was not a concern. Until then, it's great having eveyone's support.

    Babette
    Someone else's imagination is a terrible thing to waste.

  9. #9
    Breakin' social taboos TGMarla's Avatar
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    It would be nice if people would just stop making such a big deal out of it.

    Any money found in the laundry is MINE!


    "This is no social crisis....this is me having fun!"

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  10. #10
    Silver Member Rogina B's Avatar
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    I wish people would accept our personal right to choose gender presentation...There are so many more things for the non accepting to worry about...

  11. #11
    The 100th sheep GaleWarning's Avatar
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    I would be happy if people were indifferent about what I was wearing.

    Any kind of fuss, whether negative or in favour of my preference for wearing certain items deemed at the moment to be women's clothing, would indicate that crossdressing was somehow considered "not normal".

    We simply accept as taken for granted, those things currently considered to be "normal", for example, having to pass through endless checkpoints at airports when travelling. We may grumble about it, but we no longer think that all the heavy security is "not normal". We accept it as something to be tolerated. And in that sense, we are indifferent to it.

    I yearn for a similar societal view about crossdressing.

  12. #12
    Full-Time Duality NathalieX66's Avatar
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    Tolerance & acceptance is all fine and great.......it's not the same as being appreciated.

    Women dress in nice fashionable clothes to get compliments. Crossdressers, even if tolerated or acepted, don't get the same social rewards by everyone. I've been lucky enough to have nice thing said by my closest friends ( girl says "you pull off the look better than me, I'm jealous"......guy says to me "i'm not gay but you look damn hot")


    I'm sure there is someone out there that wants so use the word f * a* g out there when describing me but what to they know? I've battled with this for 38 years, and they've thought about this for what? 2 minutes?

  13. #13
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    it is locational and cultural and....

    As you pointed out, it is locational, it is cultural and tolerance requires some amount of thought be put into whether something deserves to BE tolerated. We PUT UP (tolerate) with a lot of things--the folks in Wisc or Minn tolerate the awful winters (I doubt that many really accept them in the normal sense).
    IN the Bible Belt, tolerance is going to have a different meaning, especially where it concerns crossdressing--than say Hollywood or San Francisco, California, where one might expect to find even acceptance of a different lifestyle, depending on the locations within the respective cities.
    With so many people dropping out of high school we are getting a fair share of morons who can't think at all. How will they react to crossdressing--tolerance or acceptance or a baseball bat?
    From what I see reading the various threads here, from people who live not only in various states but countries, I don't get an overwhelming sense that we are in for any great amount of acceptance and the "tolerance" that some get may simply be a lack of actual thought about what people see. (e.g. they really don't care what you are wearing if you mind your own business,as it has been phrased here many times.)
    Will we ever be just a bunch of different fish species swimming in the same water? It would be nice if that were the case. When I grew up I, never remember thinking that I had to tolerate or accept this or that individual. I liked them, or didn't depending on how they treated me.
    Are toleration and acceptance words from the Civil Rights era? I think of acceptance in the form of GMAC--general motors acceptance corporation.
    we should see are neighbors for the people they are (but nowadays, who are they?)
    Frédérique, your threads are always great and they are so many possible ways to address them. Doesn't even the word acceptance imply that there is something wrong with someone--I accept you (but there is still the something- that- bothers- me- about- you kind of mentality).
    There was a time when folks thought we should just be "color blind" and all the races would just blend in. Perhaps that's the driection we should travel in. As Tom Lehrer would put it--blind to their obvious faults, and we certainly have some faults. Pehaps we should just strive to blend in. There isn't going to be a Rosa Parks for CDers because I think basically most everyone is against our lifestyle-a lifestyle that even some of us have trouble accepting.
    Thanks for a great thought piece. Sorry to ramble here.
    Last edited by busker; 02-05-2011 at 01:05 AM. Reason: i stopped to think and forget to start again.

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    It is hard to comment here, because the issues are so complex. You stated your case very well Frederique. I don't think acceptance or tolerance is stating it accurately. We do stand out, and unfortunately always will, we are men in a dress... (or whatever variation we individually fall under). We are not the "average". I think we do for the most part have what we can expect. That is if you present well, you can be shown the respect you deserve. This is what I receive for the most part. Although, I have been mocked. I also have been shown total "acceptance". I have been respectfully called "Ma'am", which was what I was hoping for.

    I don't know if the respect that I have been shown is due to where I am located (Southern California) or not, but as I read the forum, it seems that others, even in the so-called Bible belt get the same respect that I have been shown. What we do is out in the open. Other alternative lifestyles (I don't like phrasing it that way) do what they do behind closed doors, for the most part.

  15. #15
    the happy camper
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    I dislike Mrs. Brown's denigration of tolerance. There was a time when Catholics and Protestants were massacring each other in the streets and burning each other at the stake. The thinkers who introduced the belief that some mutual toleration was in order between these warring opponents did a great thing. Toleration should not be scoffed at. Think of all the gay and transfolk who would be alive today if they had received a little toleration.

    I don't ask for more than to be left alone. I don't need people throwing roses in my path. I'm not even sure how I could get that from those who disapprove of me without some form of coercion, and I could never approve of that. If they can tolerate my "perversion", I can certainly tolerate the insincerity of their kindness.

  16. #16
    One Perky Goth Gurl Pythos's Avatar
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    Well, I would like those that curently don't like what I wear and how I look to just be indifferent, but I do like it when my GG makes a big ( positive) deal out of what I wear, and I like others to do so as well. What's really cool is if people decide to try it out too.
    "I am not altogether on anyone's side as no one is all together on my side"
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  17. #17
    The 100th sheep GaleWarning's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sophie86 View Post
    I dislike Mrs. Brown's denigration of tolerance.

    If they can tolerate my "perversion", I can certainly tolerate the insincerity of their kindness.
    How do I put this ? ...

    You denigrate yourself and the rest of us by using the term "perversion". We are not perverted.

    You could very well be wrong most of the time, when you interpret kindness as being insincere. How would you know?

  18. #18
    Complex Lolita...
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    Quote Originally Posted by busker
    Doesn't even the word acceptance imply that there is something wrong with someone--I accept you (but there is still the something- that- bothers- me- about- you kind of mentality).
    [SIZE="2"]I appreciate your thinking and rethinking, judging by the revisions!

    Yes, tolerance and acceptance are obvious “markers” that emanate from a superior position, as if one assumes guardianship over what is acceptable. “I’ll tolerate your crossdressing” sounds a lot like “I don’t like what you’re doing,” and “I accept you as a crossdresser” isn’t necessary at all if the sentiment is sincere. This is similar to the paradox of saying “I’m not gay, but there’s nothing wrong with being gay” in mixed company – this is a clear signal that being homosexual is somewhat tolerated (by the loudmouth), but full equality with heterosexuals is not forthcoming, for various reasons. Adjusting the discussion towards crossdressing, I think it’s safe to assume that most people are bothered by what we do, and they apply that censure begrudgingly to any "tolerance" they may proffer...
    [/SIZE]


    Quote Originally Posted by Sophie86
    I don't ask for more than to be left alone.
    [SIZE="2"]Same here, but I like to observe and explore the situation that our little community is in at the present time. For me, crossdressing is a VERY private affair, but public perception (and lack of tolerance) creates my closeted position.[/SIZE]

    Quote Originally Posted by clayfish
    You denigrate yourself and the rest of us by using the term "perversion". We are not perverted.
    [SIZE="2"]I was the one who brought up the word “perversion,” not the author of the quoted text, because, like it or not, we crossdressers, are lumped in under the umbrella of sexual perversion – people assume crossdressers must have some perverted take on things, which is unfortunate, so any tolerance that may come our way doesn’t get very far. If you look up the term crossdresser, or transvestite, you will quickly bump into the sexual connotations that create preconceptions and prejudice in the minds of outsiders. It isn’t fair, but this is what we have to deal with...

    I wouldn’t be too bent out of shape about the word perversion, though. Artists like myself are considered to be engaged in perversion simply by doing something contrary to normalcy, or following a path that diverts from the course that most people take in their lives – indeed, that is the very definition of perversion: to turn another way. Most people associate “pervert” with sexual deviancy, immorality, or worse, but if you’re stubborn or contrary, or prone to abnormal activity, you are also a pervert, at least by definition, if not also in the eyes of society. Here is where the word “normal” needs to be examined, since crossdressing qualifies as abnormal activity, wouldn’t you say?

    The fact that there is a “standard” for normalcy, almost instinctually adhered to without recourse, is right at the heart of the matter about tolerance. We are different, thus we are abnormal, and so we are willfully engaging in perversion. How do you tell the purveyors of normalcy that we have not turned to error (in their eyes), nor do we have a twisted sense of values or morals? I mean, crossdressing is a visual perversion (there’s that word again), so everyone can see what the problem is and act accordingly. Due to circumstances beyond our control, we are perverts – not within our own community, of course, but to the world at large. I can expect tolerance from the former, but not the latter – I accept that, even though I dislike the disparity…
    [/SIZE]

  19. #19
    Silver Member linnea's Avatar
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    I hope for freedom not just tolerance. Tolerance, along with its other spurious implications, implies a "lesser other" whose behavior, words, beliefs, etc. are allowed by a "greater other" who condones them often in a condescending manner. The condescension often includes the further implication that if the lesser other goes to far with her behavior, words, beliefs, etc. , the toleration may be limited or discontinued. Freedom, not always tolerated, does not obtain in the control of others--at least it shouldn't; it should be the right of all. We, crossdressers, do not enjoy freedom not very often tolerance.
    warmly, Linnea

  20. #20
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    To my way of thinking, tolerance and acceptance aren't really the right words.

    Imagine a world where everyone holds a libertarian sort of worldview. Do what you please, so long as you don't interfere with anyone else's right to do the same. You don't have to like what your neighbor does. You don't have to tolerate, condone, accept. Just respect the rights of others, as you wish them to respect yours.

    Being that we don't live in that world yet, you can't really expect everyone else to respect your rights. You don't get them handed to you on a silver platter. Sometimes you have to insist.

    Expecting the whole world to tolerate or accept a thing you do -- that's preposterous. Does anyone tolerate everything? I've seen plenty of intolerance on this forum... and the worst of it is found in threads decrying intolerance! It's one thing to ask it of a few individuals you know... but to expect warm fuzzy feelings from the rest of the planet is just too much. But it is nevertheless perfectly reasonable to expect others to respect your rights, insofar as you accord them the same.

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