Extreme Femininity

[msginaadoll]

Reading various posts it is easy to see many posts about cds love for dressing and emulating women. However reading posts from many of the GGs from this forum it is interesting to see a often different viewpoint. Sometimes I wonder if many of us are not falling into the cult of extreme feminism. I mean how many time do u read about someone not feeling right if they dont wear a skirt or dress or if they are not completely made up.
On the other hand I have never read a post from a GG stating you know I dont feel at all like a woman unless I wear a micro miniskirt and 7 inch heels. That may seen like a silly point and it probably is.... But Im wondering if sometimes since as a cd we can never be truly female, that at times we go to the far extreme. We want to take a almost characture of what a women is and then impose it on ourselves. The problem is
then if we try to impose our view of this on the rest of the world and women in general. Then all of a sudden u see, why dont women wear skirts or dresses or take pride in their appearance, or....... Because the focus of crossdressing is on our clothes we transmit that to the focus of being a woman is clothes. I think most would agree that a fairly big leap
Im sure some will disagree with my comments and that is personally ok.... Even the comment that the focus of crossdressing is on clothes may be silly... however how many naked crossdressers do u see? Well I look forward to the comments, this forum has always given me plenty to ponder on. Gina

[SarahMarie42]

I think some of us cross dressers fall victim to fallacious ideas regarding the definition of femininity, but I personally enjoy presenting myself in a subtly feminine way as much as I enjoy presenting myself in a more flamboyant, traditionally glamorous, hyper-feminine way

[Loni]

I do not know how I should feel at any time, but I am more confortable relaxing in a skirt than jeans.

[VioletJourney]

I'm a newcomer to this world but isn't that what's called the "pink fog"? From what I understand us CDers will occasionally fall victim to the pink fog but it gradually fades away and we express ourselves more subtly.

Plus in my opinion, being a woman and femininity are completely different things; for example, Lzzy Hale of the band Halestorm (or perhaps Joan Jett) has a stage presence that's very aggressive and rock n' roll, traditionally masculine traits, but still easily expresses herself as a woman.

[Kathryn Philips]

For me dressing is about seeing myself as woman and distancing myself from as much as possible from my male appearance but without going extreme. I have 2 dressing modes.

1) Full make-up only, for looking at myself in mirror (wig, foundation, eyeshadow, eyeliner, red lipstick, feminine looking glasses and pearl earrings).
2) Fully dressed (the above+ knen -length skirt, bra, tights, 4" heels).

My opportunities to dress are scarce and have to make most of them, if I cannot look like a woman, I don't bother. I also never underdress, it does nothing for me (I even wear mens briefs under my skirts).

[noeleena]

Hi.

As by now you all know im not a dresser nore will be,nore T S, & yes i go with what youv said as iv met 100 s of .

& yes most would out dress me any time most would make me look well what the..... are you . the way in which they dress make up & shoes , tho for me what i do see as youv said the way they act as tho they are woman & for me some way over do it . i cant act being a woman my dress is simple hardly any make up if any most of the time . so my standing with in the dressers would be what am i doing here , (( i dont mean on our forum , places iv been ))

& yes i do feel out of place this is my comflict being around men im being up front with this . im a lot better than i was .

My women friends in our groups do dress lovely & have some so so nice clothes i dont even try because i know theyll out class me every time so for me it has to be just simple in design & comfortable ,
in day to day wear i do have nice clothes & do dress up & do get comments of that suits you & its nice ,

im not being what im not , yet i do see what your saying now the ? i would put out is how would those get on in my world how would they be seen, accepted yes , just some thinking would be whats the game they are playing at .now some of my fiends do know & have seen pics i took over in Oz e so for them its no bigge ,

If some were to come with me & meet my friends could they stand the test of,.... are you really a woman ,...... for many voice is a good point to start with, i talk with 100 s of people been in front of ...... okay youv got the point... im out there, thats the difference.
Now thats not to say some would not be able to do what i cant do , theyed PASS where as i dont. tho im a woman.
As iv said before yous would out class me in dress & what wev talked about .

Clothes do not have much bearing on who i am im still a woman no matter how im dressed or not. , so what makes a real woman , being one.
For me growing to be one.

The last part is a ...tell all .....thats where the difference is for me as a woman.

...noeleena...

[prene]

i feel the most feminine when I tightlace, tuck well and wear attachable forms.
When U tightlace my walk changes, and when I wear attachable forms I can wear a light support bra so I feel my breasts pulling and moving with my body.
THerefore,
When I a wearing them I feel extremely feminine.

[KrystalA]

I enjoy wearing feminine clothing. Period. Alsways with satin undies. And I wear skirts of knee-length to micro-mini...and capri pants, slacks, jeans, whatever, with nice blouses. Pretty much anything, mild to a bit wild. It depends on my mood, but almost anything designed to cover the female body makes me feel feminine. I suppose it varies with every one of us as much as everything else varies with each of us. My basic principle as far as CDing goes, is if it feels good, wear it.

[SarahMarie42]

Well Violet, most people don't know that Mel Torme was himself a cross dresser, and when he was in his feminine persona, he referred to himself as "The Pink Fog". At least that's MY theory as to what "pink fog" means.

[Julogden]

I can only speak for me. I have to use a lot of makeup in order to disguise a masculine visage, but I try to use makeup in a manner so that it doesn't look like a lot of makeup. I only wear full makeup if I'm going to be around other people, don't want to put anyone off their feed. Or if I'm taking photos of myself too. Around home by myself, some lipstick usually suffices.

I don't dress for sexual thrills, I dress to reflect who I am inside, and I try to dress nicely and appropriately for my age in a manner that a female who is unfortunate enough to be my size might dress. I've never owned a miniskirt or mini-dress, just never went through that phase for some reason. I do have a couple pairs of heels, but I rarely wear them. I love my flats, sandals and kitten heels.

I do tend to wear skirts or dresses a bit more than many females do, in warmer weather anyway, and I was raised at a time when women wore hosiery if they wanted to dress "properly" and I seem to have taken that rule to heart, as I don't feel completely dressed without sheer hosiery if I'm dressed nicely. If dressed casually, and the weather is warm, then I usually don't wear hosiery. I usually wear knee-highs if I'm wearing pants, mainly because I don't like how shoes feel without hose or socks. So I do dress a little more toward what's being referred to here as extremely feminine, but nowhere near the extreme that many here go to.

I dress to make me happy, and I hope that females don't find my manner of dressing offensive or demeaning to them, but if they do, I can't help that. I need to be me. Back when I used to go out to T-friendly bars a lot, my main place to go to was a lesbian bar where I became accepted as one of the women, and I was accepted there by all but a small group who didn't like transwomen in general. They tolerated me, but didn't like me.

Carol

[Kathi Lake]

Ding ding ding!!!

There are many people out there (but never in here! ) who think of femininity as an outside-in process. "If I cake on enough layers of femininity - at least as much as I understand it - I will be feminine. Much more so than those 'fake' genetic women who don't even own a dress. Sheesh!"

To me - at least as much as I understand it - femininity is an inside-out process. People see you for who you are on the inside - not for what you wear, or how you look.



Kathi

[sterling12]

Yes....there are certainly "Girly-Girls" out there who do enjoy dressing well, feeling very feminine, and get a huge kick out of it! But, among The Spectrum of Women, they are a tiny fraction. If you ask them privately, they will be glad to tell you about it. Trust me, I'm like Freddi. I've dated enough of them to know!

But for The vast majority of Women, IT'S NOT ABOUT THE CLOTHES! They do not define femininity, nor themselves, based upon dressing choices.

And yes, there seems to be a Fetishistic Element for many Trans Folk. (And yes, many TS Gurls like to dress up for a Party too.) Perhaps we tend to "emphasize" The Appearance items because they are The Visible signs of Femininity, and are The Things we can easily effect. Shaving your legs, wearing stockings, putting on a cute dress? All of that is Easy! Learning a million and one gestures, mindsets, social graces, movements, headshakes, etc. etc.. THAT is Hard! To be 100% totally, habituated into The World of Women may be unobtainable for us. Maybe we just try to achieve what we believe is obtainable.

Peace and Love, Joanie

[Cari]

For me when I dress its a special occasion so I generally dress up.
I own jeans, pants and casual clothes but they come out if the occasion calls for it or after I've had allot of time to dress.
Some items of clothing do make it easier for me to find my fem side, heels in particular help with the walk ect.
Also skirts are more comfortable because I dont have to tuck as well.

You mention creating a character of a woman and Im guilty of that; however it evolved as I found a sense of style and developed my own tastes.
When I started I thought the more feminine the clothes were the more feminine I would look.
Imagine my surprise when I found out I look best in a skirt suit :-)

I think we CD's are often way to hard on women for not watching there appearance.
I remember researching stocks and a women told me that I was wrong in my assumptions because mascara is a staple item and she wouldnt leave the house without it.

And BTW you are right I would never invest in a CD friendly nudist colony.

[LilSissyStevie]

I like to dress in an ultra feminine style and could really care less about what the majority of GGs do. I do this to express myself not because I want imitate some "average" GG or because I think it represents some kind of "ideal" GG. There is a difference between gender (masculine, feminine) and sex (male, female.) Once you "get" the difference, things start to make a lot more sense.

[ReineD]

But Im wondering if sometimes since as a cd we can never be truly female, that at times we go to the far extreme. We want to take a almost characture of what a women is and then impose it on ourselves. The problem is then if we try to impose our view of this on the rest of the world and women in general. Then all of a sudden u see, why dont women wear skirts or dresses or take pride in their appearance, or....... Because the focus of crossdressing is on our clothes we transmit that to the focus of being a woman is clothes. I think most would agree that a fairly big leap

I've wondered the same thing! You make valid points and I thank you for bringing it up.

The way that femininity is portrayed here at times is vastly different than the reality. Yes, there are women who dress up, and there may well be a few who feel naked without all the fashion & makeup props (Tammy Faye Baker comes to mind). Most of us do dress up for some occasions, but we don't spend so much time and money on our appearance as some members here seem to think, especially as we move forward in our lives (past the age of finding a mate), to careers and child rearing.

I understand needing to be ultra feminine from a CDer's viewpoint since it is difficult to mask the male gender cues without doing otherwise, especially in the beginning of the learning curve. But then it seems as if some CDers do lose a sense of reality when they stop being able to see a woman's femininity just because she doesn't go to the same extremes in her own presentation.

My impression from reading threads here is that generally, CDers say they dress because they wish at some level to get in touch with their feminine sides and this is why they enjoy wearing the clothes. But I've often wondered if there is also a deep love and fascination with idealized feminine beauty as well, to the degree of developing a deep seated need for replicating it. In other words, it is not enough to be feminine, but one must be beautiful as well. (I'm not suggesting this is true for all CDers.)

With my own SO and other CDers, I've observed a distinct attraction to beautiful women (their faces, hair, and bodies), and the clothes they wear that are designed to enhance their beauty, far more than just a regular guy's attraction to a pretty girl. And this is helped along by the obliging media which plays an important role in establishing these very high beauty standards. Magazines, fashion catalogues, the TV and silver screens have a much higher proportion of women who are more beautiful than the norm, which might make it seem to those who are fascinated with feminine beauty as if it is the norm. So from this perspective, I can understand why a CDer might not value the average woman's femininity (when she dresses in blue jeans and wears no makeup), in comparison to the high standards set forth in the media. Unfortunately this exasperates those of us who are average and who are in relationships with said CDers. lol

I remember in a thread once I brought forth the idea that we are not born with makeup on and a cute skirt. A woman's non-stereotypical baseline is no makeup and comfortable clothing, and if she is alone with no plans of going out or receiving visitors, by and large this is how she will present herself. When she does dress up, she is conforming to the stereotypes of idealized beauty set forth by the media. Needless to say, my ideas were not well received. If I recall, the CDers in that thread were arguing that a woman IS at her baseline norm when she is dressed fashionably and hiding behind a makeup mask. lol

There are many shades of gray to everything and I'm by no means suggesting that all women hate fashion and makeup, and only put it on to conform with societal expectations of how they should look. We are, after all, socialized in the same culture that panders to consumerism and rewards ideal beauty, so when it suits our purposes, we want to decorate ourselves as well. We receive positive feedback when we do and we like it, myself included.

But, it is important to remember that the media ideal for feminine beauty that so many here aspire to is not the norm for the majority of women, and it would be good to remember to appreciate the average woman, even when she is presenting as her undecorated, baseline self.

Heaven forbid that I ever get through and actually discover what femininity consists of. That might just spoil the whole endeavor.

Yup, it just might!

CDs are necessary for women to become feminine again. Feminism is evil. CDs set the standard and become competition for women. Women now have to worry about CDs stealing their men.

Sean, you really should give it up. Surely by now you can see that your opinions are in the minority here.

[Sue101]

but we don't spend so much time and money on our appearance as some members here seem to think

Isn't the common complaint here that women no longer try to appear feminine?
Another thing to consider is the massive fashion and beauty industry which makes up a significant proportion of all consumer spending. Women say they are not bothered about such things but they sure do spend a lot of time shopping for these things.

But then it seems as if some CDers do lose a sense of reality when they stop being able to see a woman's femininity just because she doesn't go to the same extremes in her own presentation.

That depends if you consider wearing a dress an extreme. Isn't the issue here that women are no longer interested or cannot be bothered to visually express femininity? Ask any men what he thinks of as femininity and he will list mostly the visual clues. That is what men see and want.

With my own SO and other CDers, I've observed a distinct attraction to beautiful women (their faces, hair, and bodies), and the clothes they wear that are designed to enhance their beauty, far more than just a regular guy's attraction to a pretty girl.

True enough. But doesn't every woman aslo not want to be pretty and be considered the most beautiful in the world. I am not sure why we are being chastised for wanting the same thing women want.

But, it is important to remember that the media ideal for feminine beauty that so many here aspire to is not the norm for the majority of women, and it would be good to remember to appreciate the average woman, even when she is presenting as her undecorated, baseline self.

Honestly Reine we live in the real world and we are all perfectly aware of the difference between the average woman and models. Lets remember instead that crossdressers are chasing after fantasies and good feelings and often have only very limited opportunities to do so thus we will always take the opportunity to take our dressing to the extremes.

But, if you go to any average, mid-sized town mall (not an upscale mall near a ritzy area), and observe the women who walk by, how many are dressed the way you describe?

True but why do you insist that we must relate to the average woman. Why cannot crossdressers relate to the girly girls and use them as our role models? We dress for ourselves, we are not competeing with our SOs nor are we compensating for any real or perceived lack of femininity in our SOs. If our overt desire for femininity grates with you then the answer lies within you, meaning you have issues with people who wish to emphasize femininity.

PS - When I am using "you", I mean the generic you not the you you!

[Kathi Lake]

As soon as I saw your words, my vagina became very dry and my libido plummeted to the ground. I'd be afraid that you would cause more women to have this reaction.

Ah, Shananigans. Thank you for one of the best troll-busting quotes in memory. You rock, woman!!

The way that femininity is portrayed here at times is vastly different than the reality.

And it always will be. In my opinion, no crossdresser will ever 'get' the other sex. We may think we do at times, but it is "through a glass, darkly" if I can lift a quote. Reine, you do, at least, 'get it' in that we are at a disadvantage when trying to emulate the other side, and have to compensate by piling on what we feel that other side needs to have. As guys, we are visual. We concentrate on the curvy, the pretty, the 'shiny' things. Certain things just scream "female" to us, and we carry that into our dressing activities. For some, it's that plus a fetishistic component. For instance, if it weren't for some of us, there would be no market for large size maid uniforms, rhumba panties, or especially garter belts. Those industries would have blown away years ago.

When I was starting out, my wife took me aside and laughingly - yet lovingly - said I was going about it all wrong. She said that I was concentrating on the outside - clothes, makeup, etc. - the trappings of what the world saw as femininity. She told me that it came from inside. She had me start reading a series of books from Jeanette Oak. She told me to pay attention to her internal dialog, her thoughts, hopes, dreams, and reactions. She told me that femininity and beauty came from the inside. Now, I'm not suggesting that reading some books will suddenly make us feminine, I'm saying that we need to think in terms of who we are on the inside. Love that person.

Kathi

[ReineD]

Sue101,

Yes, fashion & beauty sales are large. But other sectors of the retail industry are larger, including food, household, automotive, electronics, and a host of others. My point is, the average woman doesn't spend as much time and money on her appearance, clothing, and accessories as do the CDers who post here ... unless all the threads I've read from members who describe the size of their closets and their love of shopping are pure fantasy?


As to chastising you for wanting to look pretty, perhaps you missed the following part of my post?

There are many shades of gray to everything and I'm by no means suggesting that all women hate fashion and makeup, and only put it on to conform with societal expectations of how they should look. We are, after all, socialized in the same culture that panders to consumerism and rewards ideal beauty, so when it suits our purposes, we want to decorate ourselves as well. We receive positive feedback when we do and we like it, myself included.

I fully appreciate and support any CDer's desire to be feminine, and to go to the lengths he/she must in order to do so. But, you seem to have missed my major points: It is my observation that CDers in general are more fascinated with "ideal" feminine beauty than is the average woman, and further, the desire to be beautiful rather than merely expressing a feminine nature may be a fundamental reason many members here CDress. Also, this obsession with "the media-type beautiful" rather than garden variety femininity, may lead some members here to have an exaggerated, stereotypical, or fetishized view of what it is to be a woman in our society.

Kathi got to the point much more quickly than I:

There are many people out there (but never in here! ) who think of femininity as an outside-in process. "If I cake on enough layers of femininity - at least as much as I understand it - I will be feminine. Much more so than those 'fake' genetic women who don't even own a dress. Sheesh!"

To me - at least as much as I understand it - femininity is an inside-out process. People see you for who you are on the inside - not for what you wear, or how you look.

[Sue101]

It is my observation that CDers in general are more fascinated with "ideal" feminine beauty than is the average woman, and further, the desire to be beautiful rather than merely expressing a feminine nature may be a fundamental reason many members here CDress.

I agree but I don't think you take this point far enough. I made this point elsewhere but i will repeat it again.

Most crossdressers are not trying emulate women because they are not as transgendered as they would like to think they are. There are transgendered crossdressers out there but the average crossdresser is not, but does like the label because it neatly explains his behavior. What I perceive is going on for most is they are trying to recapture and project onto themselves specific female images that communicate to them femininity. It is not about idealism over beauty, it is idealism over feminity. This is why older crossdressers often seek to recreate the feminine images of the 1950-60s and why so many crossdressers focus on lingerie, hookers outfits and maid's uniforms etc. If a crossdresser is truly trying to emulate a woman then he would do his best to blend in by toning down his style to an androgynous look.

Here is my best shot. Think of femininity as a drug which has been fined tuned to get men high. If you are a cis man and want a shot then you have to be with a woman. Crossdressers discovered plan B - get hold of a syringe of femininity and shot it directly into your veins. We get what we want directly instead of via a third party. It is a shortcut to get to that happy place we want to be.

I doubt everyone wants to be the most beautiful in the world. There is more to life than being pretty.

True but I would suggest if given the choice everyone wants to be pretty AND admired for their other qualities or put it the other way nobody wants to be ugly and admired for other qualities.

For GGs it isn't always about clothing or make up, and you know what? I feel just as feminine and cute in my dowdy artist clothes covered in paint than when I'm in a dress.

What you are describing is how women and men have different takes on femininity. Women feel it comes from within while men can only relate to the external visuals since they have been forbidden to feel these feelings for themselves.

It's very disheartening to come to this forum as a member, as someone who supports and adores her CDing pattern and hear time after time that women aren't feminine enough.

If you understand my drugs analogy then you will understand these sentiments come from the craving crossdressers have for femininity which intensifies their desire to experience it not just in themselves but in others.

[Stitch]

True enough. But doesn't every woman aslo not want to be pretty and be considered the most beautiful in the world. I am not sure why we are being chastised for wanting the same thing women want.

While all women like to think that on some scale they are attractive, I doubt everyone wants to be the most beautiful in the world. There is more to life than being pretty. I'd rather be loved for who I am rather than because I am genetically female. Incidentally I see that's also what you pretty much have as your own signature. I want to be loved and admired as much for my personality and abilities as a person, then just because I may look attractive. Beauty is fleeting after all.
I find "beauty" to be rather generic these days. The universally attractive people all look so samey, like they've all been carved out with the same cookie cutter.

That depends if you consider wearing a dress an extreme. Isn't the issue here that women are no longer interested or cannot be bothered to visually express femininity? Ask any men what he thinks of as femininity and he will list mostly the visual clues. That is what men see and want.

Pssh. I actually feel my most feminine when I am completely naked, without all my bells and whistles. I feel great getting up in the morning and seeing just how cute I look without makeup. As for what men want, I am pretty sure that when I am naked my boyfriend totally does want me. For GGs it isn't always about clothing or make up, and you know what? I feel just as feminine and cute in my dowdy artist clothes covered in paint than when I'm in a dress.

This next part isn't nessarily aimed at you Sue, its more of something I've noticed in general on the forum.
It's very disheartening to come to this forum as a member, as someone who supports and adores her CDing pattern and hear time after time that women aren't feminine enough. I have no qualms with CDers who wish to express their vision of femininity, its when they start attacking women for theirs that bothers me. It frustrates me so much that demographic of people who so wish for acceptance and love, turn around and are so unaccepting of the differences of a whole other group of people. I sometimes wonder why I even bother to come here. It's not always the most welcoming of forums. I generally find that my generation of CDers (25 and under) are hell of a lot more accepting of GGs styles as a whole than the older generation, and its them and the FABs which make me feel okay to be here.

[kimdl93]

.... its more of something I've noticed in general on the forum. It's very disheartening to come to this forum as a member, as someone who supports and adores her CDing pattern and hear time after time that women aren't feminine enough. I have no qualms with CDers who wish to express their vision of femininity, its when they start attacking women for theirs that bothers me. It frustrates me so much that demographic of people who so wish for acceptance and love, turn around and are so unaccepting of the differences of a whole other group of people.... .

This really bears repeating and emphasis.

[sometimes_miss]

I mean how many time do u read about someone not feeling right if they dont wear a skirt or dress or if they are not completely made up. Gina

There are plenty of women out there that would not even consider leaving the house without doing their make up and hair,and putting one a 'nice dress'; and there are also those who don't feel good unless they are wearing a hot dress or skirt and heels because they LIKE feeling beautiful and sexy. Not all; but more than you'd imagine. And no, you won't read about them, as it's really not considered 'news'; for lots of them, it's just part of being a woman.
And over the years I've heard lots of women tell another woman how great and how 'hot' they look, and that woman certainly enjoyed the comment and basked in the moment. Why does that make it 'extremely feminine'? Does anyone ever approach a woman who's in a beautiful dress and heels and say, 'Hey, you're extremely feminine today!'? Probably, well, never.
And millions of women dress up every day, trying to look their best, wearing beautiful female attire that accentuates everything female about them, without the intention of inspiring lust in anyone in particular. So, why can't we do the same. All we want to do is feel beautiful. Women get to do it. It shouldn't be an incident or a crime when we do.

[ReineD]

There are plenty of women out there that would not even consider leaving the house without doing their make up and hair,and putting one a 'nice dress'; and there are also those who don't feel good unless they are wearing a hot dress or skirt and heels because they LIKE feeling beautiful and sexy. Not all; but more than you'd imagine. And no, you won't read about them, as it's really not considered 'news'; for lots of them, it's just part of being a woman.

You illustrate the point I made very well. I do understand why you think the way you do though. But, if you go to any average, mid-sized town mall (not an upscale mall near a ritzy area), and observe the women who walk by, how many are dressed the way you describe?

If, however you are describing the way that women dress when they go out on the town, then I agree with you. But an evening out on the town is not an average activity for most people.

[Fab Karen]

IF there's such a cult, then there are plenty of GG's who have joined it as well ( as a well-known example, the Kardashian girls ). If all the stores selling dresses & skirts & fab make-up relied just on sales to CD's, they'd go broke. Over & over on this site we get the silly message sent that "all women are identical" ( whether for example the moronic "all women want to give birth" or the absurd "all women hate high heels" ).

[docrobbysherry]

Let me say a few words before Sean steals this thread, unless he already has!?

We're simply trying to emulate that which looks attractive to us! At least, I AM! I saw a stunning woman in the bank today I couldn't help but stare! And, she noticed! I'm SURE she gets that a lot!

Immaculately dressed. Peep toe shoes with perfectly toe nails, hands too! Not too much of anything, just that everything about her look was perfectly coordinated and presented!

So what if we rarely see women like that out? We see them all the time on TV, in movies, and in newspapers and magazines!

If u only dress occasionally, like I do, why NOT make the effort to look EXTREMELY FEMININE!?