Extreme Femininity

[Kate Simmons]

The problem is that no one, including women really knows what femininity is or even masculinity for that matter. We only know what society and the media tell us it's supposed to be. We are daily inundated with suggestions telling us who and what we are based on our anatomical sex. The problem is, real people don't really fit the supposed "mold" as everyone is an individual.

From my own experience at least, I've realized it's mostly about feelings and the clothing is a symbolic way to display those feelings and by extension wigs, makeup and all the other accessories. The extent we do it is the extent we want to convey our feelings to others but mostly puts us in tune with the feelings, which is the main goal. Any supposed femininity we gain is what we make it and there are no "rules" really, only what we've been taught by others and society in general if we choose to follow them. The main thing in my opinion is to always enjoy being ourself regardless of mode of presentation.

[Tamara Croft]

CDs are necessary for women to become feminine again. Feminism is evil. CDs set the standard and become competition for women. Women now have to worry about CDs stealing their men.

Ok, someone needs to say it... you really are a twat

[sissystephanie]

Seanmuscle, you really have been told, by more than one person! Either you know very little about CD's, or you know very little about GG's or maybe both!

I personally dress to please my self, not the rest of the world! I do not try to be really feminine, let alone extremely, but when dressed enfemme I certainly look feminine from the neck down! I do not wear a wig or makeup, so I cannot appear very feminine, but the clothing definitely is feminine!!

[Lorileah]

Any time someone starts something (like a new job, hobby, life) they tend to want to be what they consider the best. It is not unusual for people to go beyond what is really needed in these cases. As was pointed out here, many who dress either don't get much time or they tend to not do it often for whatever reason(s). Usually self imposed. So when they can dress they go over the edge.

It is also common here for CDs to have a jealous streak. This leads to over compensating.

Personal opinion is that if cross dressing tomorrow became a "norm" that 2/3 of the people here would give it up as the thrill factor or the forbidden fruit would be easily obtained. Using that theory, if they "could" dress as they wish they would soon fall into the wearing less dressy things and be just like they are in their daily life now. What ever is comfortable and handy would be the dress of the day. Not to say that skirts and dresses would not be worn but I would bet that they would be worn more as an occasion. Make up would be limited to what is "needed". Shoes would be more practical.

This is not a blanket statement. Look around, there are women who wear heels daily, who use make up daily for dramatic effect and even women who would never wear slacks. I am going to say that CD tend to go to extremes because they don't get to do it every day. Just like a young woman who is starting out in the world.

[kimdl93]

Ok, someone needs to say it... you really are a twat

OMG, I love it!!! Thank you Tamara!!!

[msniki48]

One thing i see here, is that being feminine doesn't make you female. I can come close but i will never truly be female. there are plenty women who are feminine, and plenty who are not, but they are all Female.

Same goes for the male contingent....Not every male is masculine, but they are definately Male.

I can feel feminine, as a transgendered person, i can actually, think and feel very similarly to that of a female because i'm wired that way [ and very proud of that] [ i call it thinking from both sides of the brain] , but i will never be female.

there are so many layers in this continuum of male to female,one could compare it to all the colors in the spectrum or the many shades of gray.

yep, some of us are a charicature of femininity and are happy being there, i try to be happy with my time as the girl next door, i wish i could be more but life gets in the way.

even if i could transition i would still have an XY chromosome so i could never be a total female... but i can feel the pleasures of being feminine.

just my humble opinion

PS: thanks for making us think...this is a great thread

hugs

[shesadvl]

shaken my head here at seanmuscle, wow ..... dont know where your head or ideas come from,.. but man I think those that have smacked you for your comment were justified.

I have a saying on the end of my emails.... most often says

"Be who you are..not whom others wish you to be"

that includes dressing, and if you are a cd'er and feel more feminine then good, shows you are enjoying what you do. But dont ever say that CD'ers are necessary for women to become feminine.

I wonder if you have an SO as they say there be hell to pay for that comment....

[charlie]

Hello Gina!
For me I do not feel good and feminine if I am not wearing a dress or a skirt, nylons and full makeup. I guess that is my vision of being a woman. There is nothing that I am proving to womanhood, setting any standard, or making any point except that I feel good wearing those clothes. I like going out so I do not wear the micro minis or the 6 inch heels. Three inch heels are my most comfortable. Nothing to do with anyone else....just me!

[SandraAbsent]

Ok, someone needs to say it... you really are a twat

Pretty much sums up my thoughts

Ok, I stopped coming to this forum for a while because I really didn't feel a connection and I refuse to get into a trannier than though conversation. Having been out for a while and met many girls both on the streets and in the virtual world I can say without out a doubt there is a differences between a lot of crossdressers, and lets say a girl that is transexual woman, or even a genetically born woman. (notice my careful use of words there )

Sometimes when I read through crossdressing forums I see a lot of the same things, girls posing in unrealistic poses, wearing unrealistic clothes, and using terms phrases to describe what they are wearing or what they are doing that no genetically born woman I have ever met would ever use. BUT THATS OK!!!! I am guilty of having done this myself when I first started. I look at it this way. Often when a girl starts is growing up, they like to play dressup, like to dance awkward dances, strike awkward poses, put on way too much makeup, trying new hairstyles, and the list could go on and on and on. I see this all the time with my nieces. This is no different with a trans woman. Depending on our experiences, how much time we have to be en femme, and what your ultimate goal is and how much time you invest reaching it, we will all be on diferent learning curves. We will all have different views on what being a woman is and what defines femininity.

I personally find myself wanting to be more natural all the time from my voice, to my posture and from my body to my dress. For me this is part of moving towards living as a woman. I know this isnt every ones goal, it's just mine. I would get frustrated coming to crossdressers forums like this because it just didnt feel like a match for me. Now I realize that it is just as much a step for some girls as it was for me and that I cant just say "I out grew that stage."

Anyhow "extreme femininity" is just all part of the learning curve, and for some its all some girls want to be or do. In my book its ok. But never never say that its a benchmark for woman who have lost the femininity, this is just about as much of a farce as I have ever heard.

[Shananigans]

One thing I would say is to be careful in using the words 'femininity' versus 'feminism' - totally different things. But, other than that, you're right. If you're about emulating women, you should be listening, not telling them on what being a woman is. And, I'm not saying "listening more". You have no place in telling a woman what a woman means. Now, some women may have different places they find themselves more comfortable in (being more feminine or more androgynous) so you can take that into account, but they're still women and know it, nonetheless...

Thank you.

CDs are necessary for women to become feminine again. Feminism is evil. CDs set the standard and become competition for women. Women now have to worry about CDs stealing their men.

You're high. If a man wanted to leave me for someone else (CD or otherwise), he can go right ahead. Stupid men are easily replaceable. What I WOULD worry about, if I were you, is that you are heterosexual. As soon as I saw your words, my vagina became very dry and my libido plummeted to the ground. I'd be afraid that you would cause more women to have this reaction.

On the negative side, every day now I get on this site and I become very angry with the number of sexists on this site.
On the plus side, I become more of a feminist and my bisexuality swings from 50/50 to 60/40 (in favor of the women).

If you all really want to exude the feminine essence, learn to be a balancing beam. Learn to be intelligent, be successful, and work "like a man" (but, not be paid like a man or respected like a man in similar positions)....then, work your second job: take the kids to school, make dinner, raise a family, and squeeze in time to put on heels and lipstick at the end of the day so your worthless husband who plants himself on the sofa with a beer at the end of the day doesn't complain that you are getting frumpy.

When you can balance all of the above and not resent humanity, you have successfully become a woman.
Listen and learn

[Suzette Muguet de Mai]

Hey Shananigans, not all here are like this idiot seanmuscle. Please don't let idiots like him wreck the offers in knowledge you and other GG generously give free. It makes me question if the site is not being invaded by a tribe of neanderthal males, like major stupidity and thoughtless remarks makes me wonder. I hope not because I don't want the minority to jeopardize the sites appeal so the majority lose out again.
Back to the topic, I try and emulate female when I get a chance to dress and maybe at times I go to extreme feminizing but I have fun and I enjoy pampering myself. In male mode I guess I maybe a slob, but once I femulate, I try to do it without being ridiculous.
I am trying to learn how to minimize make-up to be more softer in my face than hard lined male and trying to find an every day outfit that suits me and my female part. Looking back at my past attempts I think one does take to extreme feminizing at first but there always seems to be some form of oscillation between minimum and maximum amounts of feminizing till equilibrium occurs naturally then you are at one with yourself and your appearance will become relaxed and appealing. Well I hope so anyway.

[ReineD]

But Im wondering if sometimes since as a cd we can never be truly female, that at times we go to the far extreme. We want to take a almost characture of what a women is and then impose it on ourselves. The problem is then if we try to impose our view of this on the rest of the world and women in general. Then all of a sudden u see, why dont women wear skirts or dresses or take pride in their appearance, or....... Because the focus of crossdressing is on our clothes we transmit that to the focus of being a woman is clothes. I think most would agree that a fairly big leap

I've wondered the same thing! You make valid points and I thank you for bringing it up.

The way that femininity is portrayed here at times is vastly different than the reality. Yes, there are women who dress up, and there may well be a few who feel naked without all the fashion & makeup props (Tammy Faye Baker comes to mind). Most of us do dress up for some occasions, but we don't spend so much time and money on our appearance as some members here seem to think, especially as we move forward in our lives (past the age of finding a mate), to careers and child rearing.

I understand needing to be ultra feminine from a CDer's viewpoint since it is difficult to mask the male gender cues without doing otherwise, especially in the beginning of the learning curve. But then it seems as if some CDers do lose a sense of reality when they stop being able to see a woman's femininity just because she doesn't go to the same extremes in her own presentation.

My impression from reading threads here is that generally, CDers say they dress because they wish at some level to get in touch with their feminine sides and this is why they enjoy wearing the clothes. But I've often wondered if there is also a deep love and fascination with idealized feminine beauty as well, to the degree of developing a deep seated need for replicating it. In other words, it is not enough to be feminine, but one must be beautiful as well. (I'm not suggesting this is true for all CDers.)

With my own SO and other CDers, I've observed a distinct attraction to beautiful women (their faces, hair, and bodies), and the clothes they wear that are designed to enhance their beauty, far more than just a regular guy's attraction to a pretty girl. And this is helped along by the obliging media which plays an important role in establishing these very high beauty standards. Magazines, fashion catalogues, the TV and silver screens have a much higher proportion of women who are more beautiful than the norm, which might make it seem to those who are fascinated with feminine beauty as if it is the norm. So from this perspective, I can understand why a CDer might not value the average woman's femininity (when she dresses in blue jeans and wears no makeup), in comparison to the high standards set forth in the media. Unfortunately this exasperates those of us who are average and who are in relationships with said CDers. lol

I remember in a thread once I brought forth the idea that we are not born with makeup on and a cute skirt. A woman's non-stereotypical baseline is no makeup and comfortable clothing, and if she is alone with no plans of going out or receiving visitors, by and large this is how she will present herself. When she does dress up, she is conforming to the stereotypes of idealized beauty set forth by the media. Needless to say, my ideas were not well received. If I recall, the CDers in that thread were arguing that a woman IS at her baseline norm when she is dressed fashionably and hiding behind a makeup mask. lol

There are many shades of gray to everything and I'm by no means suggesting that all women hate fashion and makeup, and only put it on to conform with societal expectations of how they should look. We are, after all, socialized in the same culture that panders to consumerism and rewards ideal beauty, so when it suits our purposes, we want to decorate ourselves as well. We receive positive feedback when we do and we like it, myself included.

But, it is important to remember that the media ideal for feminine beauty that so many here aspire to is not the norm for the majority of women, and it would be good to remember to appreciate the average woman, even when she is presenting as her undecorated, baseline self.

Heaven forbid that I ever get through and actually discover what femininity consists of. That might just spoil the whole endeavor.

Yup, it just might!

CDs are necessary for women to become feminine again. Feminism is evil. CDs set the standard and become competition for women. Women now have to worry about CDs stealing their men.

Sean, you really should give it up. Surely by now you can see that your opinions are in the minority here.

[sometimes_miss]

I mean how many time do u read about someone not feeling right if they dont wear a skirt or dress or if they are not completely made up. Gina

There are plenty of women out there that would not even consider leaving the house without doing their make up and hair,and putting one a 'nice dress'; and there are also those who don't feel good unless they are wearing a hot dress or skirt and heels because they LIKE feeling beautiful and sexy. Not all; but more than you'd imagine. And no, you won't read about them, as it's really not considered 'news'; for lots of them, it's just part of being a woman.
And over the years I've heard lots of women tell another woman how great and how 'hot' they look, and that woman certainly enjoyed the comment and basked in the moment. Why does that make it 'extremely feminine'? Does anyone ever approach a woman who's in a beautiful dress and heels and say, 'Hey, you're extremely feminine today!'? Probably, well, never.
And millions of women dress up every day, trying to look their best, wearing beautiful female attire that accentuates everything female about them, without the intention of inspiring lust in anyone in particular. So, why can't we do the same. All we want to do is feel beautiful. Women get to do it. It shouldn't be an incident or a crime when we do.

[ReineD]

There are plenty of women out there that would not even consider leaving the house without doing their make up and hair,and putting one a 'nice dress'; and there are also those who don't feel good unless they are wearing a hot dress or skirt and heels because they LIKE feeling beautiful and sexy. Not all; but more than you'd imagine. And no, you won't read about them, as it's really not considered 'news'; for lots of them, it's just part of being a woman.

You illustrate the point I made very well. I do understand why you think the way you do though. But, if you go to any average, mid-sized town mall (not an upscale mall near a ritzy area), and observe the women who walk by, how many are dressed the way you describe?

If, however you are describing the way that women dress when they go out on the town, then I agree with you. But an evening out on the town is not an average activity for most people.

[Sue101]

but we don't spend so much time and money on our appearance as some members here seem to think

Isn't the common complaint here that women no longer try to appear feminine?
Another thing to consider is the massive fashion and beauty industry which makes up a significant proportion of all consumer spending. Women say they are not bothered about such things but they sure do spend a lot of time shopping for these things.

But then it seems as if some CDers do lose a sense of reality when they stop being able to see a woman's femininity just because she doesn't go to the same extremes in her own presentation.

That depends if you consider wearing a dress an extreme. Isn't the issue here that women are no longer interested or cannot be bothered to visually express femininity? Ask any men what he thinks of as femininity and he will list mostly the visual clues. That is what men see and want.

With my own SO and other CDers, I've observed a distinct attraction to beautiful women (their faces, hair, and bodies), and the clothes they wear that are designed to enhance their beauty, far more than just a regular guy's attraction to a pretty girl.

True enough. But doesn't every woman aslo not want to be pretty and be considered the most beautiful in the world. I am not sure why we are being chastised for wanting the same thing women want.

But, it is important to remember that the media ideal for feminine beauty that so many here aspire to is not the norm for the majority of women, and it would be good to remember to appreciate the average woman, even when she is presenting as her undecorated, baseline self.

Honestly Reine we live in the real world and we are all perfectly aware of the difference between the average woman and models. Lets remember instead that crossdressers are chasing after fantasies and good feelings and often have only very limited opportunities to do so thus we will always take the opportunity to take our dressing to the extremes.

But, if you go to any average, mid-sized town mall (not an upscale mall near a ritzy area), and observe the women who walk by, how many are dressed the way you describe?

True but why do you insist that we must relate to the average woman. Why cannot crossdressers relate to the girly girls and use them as our role models? We dress for ourselves, we are not competeing with our SOs nor are we compensating for any real or perceived lack of femininity in our SOs. If our overt desire for femininity grates with you then the answer lies within you, meaning you have issues with people who wish to emphasize femininity.

PS - When I am using "you", I mean the generic you not the you you!

[Kathi Lake]

As soon as I saw your words, my vagina became very dry and my libido plummeted to the ground. I'd be afraid that you would cause more women to have this reaction.

Ah, Shananigans. Thank you for one of the best troll-busting quotes in memory. You rock, woman!!

The way that femininity is portrayed here at times is vastly different than the reality.

And it always will be. In my opinion, no crossdresser will ever 'get' the other sex. We may think we do at times, but it is "through a glass, darkly" if I can lift a quote. Reine, you do, at least, 'get it' in that we are at a disadvantage when trying to emulate the other side, and have to compensate by piling on what we feel that other side needs to have. As guys, we are visual. We concentrate on the curvy, the pretty, the 'shiny' things. Certain things just scream "female" to us, and we carry that into our dressing activities. For some, it's that plus a fetishistic component. For instance, if it weren't for some of us, there would be no market for large size maid uniforms, rhumba panties, or especially garter belts. Those industries would have blown away years ago.

When I was starting out, my wife took me aside and laughingly - yet lovingly - said I was going about it all wrong. She said that I was concentrating on the outside - clothes, makeup, etc. - the trappings of what the world saw as femininity. She told me that it came from inside. She had me start reading a series of books from Jeanette Oak. She told me to pay attention to her internal dialog, her thoughts, hopes, dreams, and reactions. She told me that femininity and beauty came from the inside. Now, I'm not suggesting that reading some books will suddenly make us feminine, I'm saying that we need to think in terms of who we are on the inside. Love that person.

Kathi

[ReineD]

Sue101,

Yes, fashion & beauty sales are large. But other sectors of the retail industry are larger, including food, household, automotive, electronics, and a host of others. My point is, the average woman doesn't spend as much time and money on her appearance, clothing, and accessories as do the CDers who post here ... unless all the threads I've read from members who describe the size of their closets and their love of shopping are pure fantasy?


As to chastising you for wanting to look pretty, perhaps you missed the following part of my post?

There are many shades of gray to everything and I'm by no means suggesting that all women hate fashion and makeup, and only put it on to conform with societal expectations of how they should look. We are, after all, socialized in the same culture that panders to consumerism and rewards ideal beauty, so when it suits our purposes, we want to decorate ourselves as well. We receive positive feedback when we do and we like it, myself included.

I fully appreciate and support any CDer's desire to be feminine, and to go to the lengths he/she must in order to do so. But, you seem to have missed my major points: It is my observation that CDers in general are more fascinated with "ideal" feminine beauty than is the average woman, and further, the desire to be beautiful rather than merely expressing a feminine nature may be a fundamental reason many members here CDress. Also, this obsession with "the media-type beautiful" rather than garden variety femininity, may lead some members here to have an exaggerated, stereotypical, or fetishized view of what it is to be a woman in our society.

Kathi got to the point much more quickly than I:

There are many people out there (but never in here! ) who think of femininity as an outside-in process. "If I cake on enough layers of femininity - at least as much as I understand it - I will be feminine. Much more so than those 'fake' genetic women who don't even own a dress. Sheesh!"

To me - at least as much as I understand it - femininity is an inside-out process. People see you for who you are on the inside - not for what you wear, or how you look.

[Stitch]

True enough. But doesn't every woman aslo not want to be pretty and be considered the most beautiful in the world. I am not sure why we are being chastised for wanting the same thing women want.

While all women like to think that on some scale they are attractive, I doubt everyone wants to be the most beautiful in the world. There is more to life than being pretty. I'd rather be loved for who I am rather than because I am genetically female. Incidentally I see that's also what you pretty much have as your own signature. I want to be loved and admired as much for my personality and abilities as a person, then just because I may look attractive. Beauty is fleeting after all.
I find "beauty" to be rather generic these days. The universally attractive people all look so samey, like they've all been carved out with the same cookie cutter.

That depends if you consider wearing a dress an extreme. Isn't the issue here that women are no longer interested or cannot be bothered to visually express femininity? Ask any men what he thinks of as femininity and he will list mostly the visual clues. That is what men see and want.

Pssh. I actually feel my most feminine when I am completely naked, without all my bells and whistles. I feel great getting up in the morning and seeing just how cute I look without makeup. As for what men want, I am pretty sure that when I am naked my boyfriend totally does want me. For GGs it isn't always about clothing or make up, and you know what? I feel just as feminine and cute in my dowdy artist clothes covered in paint than when I'm in a dress.

This next part isn't nessarily aimed at you Sue, its more of something I've noticed in general on the forum.
It's very disheartening to come to this forum as a member, as someone who supports and adores her CDing pattern and hear time after time that women aren't feminine enough. I have no qualms with CDers who wish to express their vision of femininity, its when they start attacking women for theirs that bothers me. It frustrates me so much that demographic of people who so wish for acceptance and love, turn around and are so unaccepting of the differences of a whole other group of people. I sometimes wonder why I even bother to come here. It's not always the most welcoming of forums. I generally find that my generation of CDers (25 and under) are hell of a lot more accepting of GGs styles as a whole than the older generation, and its them and the FABs which make me feel okay to be here.

[kimdl93]

.... its more of something I've noticed in general on the forum. It's very disheartening to come to this forum as a member, as someone who supports and adores her CDing pattern and hear time after time that women aren't feminine enough. I have no qualms with CDers who wish to express their vision of femininity, its when they start attacking women for theirs that bothers me. It frustrates me so much that demographic of people who so wish for acceptance and love, turn around and are so unaccepting of the differences of a whole other group of people.... .

This really bears repeating and emphasis.

[Fab Karen]

IF there's such a cult, then there are plenty of GG's who have joined it as well ( as a well-known example, the Kardashian girls ). If all the stores selling dresses & skirts & fab make-up relied just on sales to CD's, they'd go broke. Over & over on this site we get the silly message sent that "all women are identical" ( whether for example the moronic "all women want to give birth" or the absurd "all women hate high heels" ).

[docrobbysherry]

Let me say a few words before Sean steals this thread, unless he already has!?

We're simply trying to emulate that which looks attractive to us! At least, I AM! I saw a stunning woman in the bank today I couldn't help but stare! And, she noticed! I'm SURE she gets that a lot!

Immaculately dressed. Peep toe shoes with perfectly toe nails, hands too! Not too much of anything, just that everything about her look was perfectly coordinated and presented!

So what if we rarely see women like that out? We see them all the time on TV, in movies, and in newspapers and magazines!

If u only dress occasionally, like I do, why NOT make the effort to look EXTREMELY FEMININE!?

[BettyShore]

Gina, having dressed and pondered this issue since I was very young, I have a strong feeling that I am my own space and gender. I do not believe that women feel what I feel, and I do not believe that I feel what women feel. I believe that the feelings of a man who feels like a woman are unique. Ultimately, the strongest empathy that I have is with other *Tgirls, and ultimately, the greatest support and empathy that I know is *T to *T. Just my 2Cs. ;-)

[Sue101]

It is my observation that CDers in general are more fascinated with "ideal" feminine beauty than is the average woman, and further, the desire to be beautiful rather than merely expressing a feminine nature may be a fundamental reason many members here CDress.

I agree but I don't think you take this point far enough. I made this point elsewhere but i will repeat it again.

Most crossdressers are not trying emulate women because they are not as transgendered as they would like to think they are. There are transgendered crossdressers out there but the average crossdresser is not, but does like the label because it neatly explains his behavior. What I perceive is going on for most is they are trying to recapture and project onto themselves specific female images that communicate to them femininity. It is not about idealism over beauty, it is idealism over feminity. This is why older crossdressers often seek to recreate the feminine images of the 1950-60s and why so many crossdressers focus on lingerie, hookers outfits and maid's uniforms etc. If a crossdresser is truly trying to emulate a woman then he would do his best to blend in by toning down his style to an androgynous look.

Here is my best shot. Think of femininity as a drug which has been fined tuned to get men high. If you are a cis man and want a shot then you have to be with a woman. Crossdressers discovered plan B - get hold of a syringe of femininity and shot it directly into your veins. We get what we want directly instead of via a third party. It is a shortcut to get to that happy place we want to be.

I doubt everyone wants to be the most beautiful in the world. There is more to life than being pretty.

True but I would suggest if given the choice everyone wants to be pretty AND admired for their other qualities or put it the other way nobody wants to be ugly and admired for other qualities.

For GGs it isn't always about clothing or make up, and you know what? I feel just as feminine and cute in my dowdy artist clothes covered in paint than when I'm in a dress.

What you are describing is how women and men have different takes on femininity. Women feel it comes from within while men can only relate to the external visuals since they have been forbidden to feel these feelings for themselves.

It's very disheartening to come to this forum as a member, as someone who supports and adores her CDing pattern and hear time after time that women aren't feminine enough.

If you understand my drugs analogy then you will understand these sentiments come from the craving crossdressers have for femininity which intensifies their desire to experience it not just in themselves but in others.

[Megan70]

I think we expect far to much from real GG's and think they should dress the way WE want them do and not what is natural and comfortable for them. For most GG's wearing hosiery is a pain in the ass where with me its a high holy ritual. To them it its merely wearing a material against their legs when they have to.
Our selfishness as CD's ( a natural trait) demands the world and GG's revolve around us because after all aren't we truly the feminine ones. ( tongue in cheek here)
Agree totally with your comments. Many of us go way overboard because we have our head up our ass or in a pink cloud. Leave the real girls alone.

Megan

[ReineD]

IF there's such a cult, then there are plenty of GG's who have joined it as well ( like the Kardashian girls ). If all the stores selling dresses & skirts & fab make-up relied just on sales to CD's, they'd go broke.

But that's my point. The Kardashians aren't real, in that they are not representative of the average. They are a part of the media ideal: the type of (above average) beauty and allure that men desire and that women are conditioned to want to imitate because of this. This is why the Kardashians are on TV!

I also said above that the feminine fashion and makeup industry is large. But so is the total population of women. Spread everything out per capita (among women and CDs) and I guarantee you the CDers will have a greater personal share of the bounty than the AVERAGE GG. There will be some GGs who rival CDers in terms of purchases (the younger women who are looking for mates perhaps, or the women who do source their self-esteem from their looks), but not most women. Just look at all the women at the average mall (not the SAs who are selling the stuff) and you will see what I mean.

I also want to make it clear that I don't believe there's anything wrong with a CDer presenting as feminine as she does. The issue is, if she compares herself to the average, not quite so glam/fashionable/whatever GG and thinks less of her because of it.

So what if we rarely see women like that out? We see them all the time on TV, in movies, and in newspapers and magazines!

Precisely!

If u only dress occasionally, like I do, why NOT make the effort to look EXTREMELY FEMININE!?

No one is saying that you shouldn't make the effort to look as pretty or as feminine as you want! The point is rather about CDers not thinking that the beauty ideal they aspire to (which is in large part constructed and maintained by the media), is baseline or average for women, and the women who don't look like that just don't measure up.

I saw a comment in another thread that made my blood boil. The thread is about whether or not CDs who don't pass or blend should go out in public. One member said that if GGs can go out and "not pass" as women then why can't CDers.

This is precisely the attitude that I think the OP wants to flag: the idea that if a GG does not measure up to a CDer's ideal (i'm repeating this for emphasis .. the stereotype that is constructed by the media), then she is not feminine enough and she doesn't "pass".

It is not about idealism over beauty, it is idealism over feminity.

That's exactly what I'm saying!

Here is my best shot. Think of femininity as a drug which has been fined tuned to get men high. If you are a cis man and want a shot then you have to be with a woman. Crossdressers discovered plan B - get hold of a syringe of femininity and shot it directly into your veins. We get what we want directly instead of via a third party. It is a shortcut to get to that happy place we want to be.

You've explained it brilliantly!! The point I was getting at earlier is the danger of getting so high on that self-injected drug that the CDer becomes less attracted to his average looking wife or girlfriend than he might otherwise, simply because the wife or girlfriend doesn't measure up. How can she excite him to the same degree? And on a separate note, this is precisely what threatens some of the GGs who are in relationships with CDers. She can develop a nagging feeling that if she wasn't around, her husband would be perfectly satisfied without her, since he has himself. She thinks that he doesn't need her if he gets high on himself in a style that he considers to be more feminine than she is. It isn't a stretch for the wife to then believe that if he wasn't a CDer (if he is enamored with this hard to reach beauty ideal), then she might stand higher in his system of priorities ... and this is why she might decide she doesn't want to support the CDing.

To step back a bit, my primary reason for participating in this forum is not to put down CDers for being who they are, or defend a wife for being less than supportive. It is rather to bridge the gap by attempting to describe at least on the GG's side, why she feels the way she does. My impression from reading the threads is that many CDers think their non-accepting wives are simply against the concept of the CDing, as in a man wearing a dress. They don't realize that it runs much deeper than this: it is rather about the fear that her husband will no longer need her.

This thread attempts to flag one of the things that GGs read frequently in this forum: the idea that because many CDers have an idealized/stereotypical/fetishized view of femininity, they believe the average GG who wears jeans and no makeup doesn't "pass". And this very idea reinforces the GGs' fears that they are not enough for their husbands.