Milestone...first real date with a guy...

[Melody Moore]

Excuse me for a moment Julie, but something needs to be said here...

RebeccaLynne

I have stayed out of this until now but I to join in the chorus of other people here who say you don't have a clue
about what defines 'GENDER IDENTITY' or transsexualism. From the other comments made here its obvious you are
a CDer who has little understanding about transsexual issues & appear very ignorant, while you also seem to have
quite a few ill-conceived beliefs about what defines our gender identity & sexual identity & how we are developed.

The first thing you need to realise is that every single male on this planet started out in the womb as a female!
Did you know that this is why all men have nipples? Did you also know that a penis is developed from a clitoris?

No?

Some facts: it is only through the action of testosterone that we are developed in the male direction. During foetal
development while we are in our mother's womb there could be fluctuations in the sex hormones that are being passed
to us by the placenta & umbilical cord. Our genitalia is defined about 8 weeks into pregnancy & some other parts of the
body, including the brain & our functions such as gender identity & sexual orientations are developed much later. Now
remember that everything about us is 'female' in the beginning & some of us might have bodies that appear males, but
other parts of our physiological biological anatomy & functions stayed female! I can back all of this up with more links
to more reports if you want to doubt what I am saying here, but here is one example: http://shb-info.org/sexbrain.html

And before even being approved for GRS, you go through a whole heap of interviews & assessments to identify
your true gender identity through your gender markers which are identified by medical staff such as Doctors,
Psychiatrists & Psychologist, all people much more qualified than you or I when it comes to making these calls.
But the reality is your opinion doesn't really matter anyway, Zenith already has what she needs in her life.

There are also a number of us here who were born intersex and have both male & female chromosomes & physiological features.
So dammed if I would just stand there & let you call me a 'man' & try to embarrass me & get away with it. I recall this happening
one day when I was in a thrift store & a CDer accused me in public of being a 'man', in the end it was him who put himself in a
very awkward situation & was told by staff to leave the store while everyone laughed at him. How stupid & very hypocritical?

[Kathryn Martin]

I've met and had drinks/dinners with a few people from OKCupid with limited success. But Wed I had a real date. It was so nice to be...normal. The issue of trans never came up. Drinks, dinner, a movie in a suite at the theatre, coffee. It was so nice to walk around downtown at night with his arm around my waist or holding hands. Got a lovely hand massage and some arm caressing during the movie, and a goodnight kiss. He's a cute guy with a great sense of humor and works in film, we talked and laughed all night. He may or may not be the one, I must find a way to tell him before we become intimate. I dread that. But for now I made a real connection.

On a similar note...I've grown so much on this site. A few years ago I was even to embarrassed to even pick up a copy of "TransAmerica". Now the time is nearing for me to leave the nest...

Zenith, that is truly wonderful.

The only question I have is why you intend to disclose your medical history at all. It's like writing a letter before you go on a date disclosing that you can't have children or something. I know this may be an unpopular view, but really until the relationship moves to a point of permanency that one might want to speak about medical conditions of any sort. This issue of "honesty" is and the dictum "thou shalt be honest" which really means you are not worthy is such a stupid thing. In my view the fallacy of this is revealed when your sexual orientation is lesbian. All of a sudden all relevance of such disclosure vanishes because being "fertile" is not considered a pre-requisite. Don't pay any mind to this crock of idiocy, enjoy dating and when you feel you want to disclose whatever you feel is right then you will know and act according to your own conscience.

Your description of the lovely date made all tingley and happy for you.

[Kaz]

Julie,

I am so so happy for you. We haven't connected much but I have followed posts and this is just such a wonderful "next step"! I bet you are quite giddy from the experience?

This thread has gone a different way from that which the vast majority would have thought, but it has highlighted the narrow-mindedness of some people and their inability to understand the concept of taking personal responsibility in how we live our lives.

To Rebecca Lynne... honesty is not about telling everybody what your version of the truth is... true honesty is understanding the consequences of our actions and acting appropriately. You do not know enough about Julie to make those value judgements, and I will rigorously defend the right of everyone to navigate their lives with integrity, probity and inner truth.

Julie you have been and are still on a difficult journey. I would urge you not to leave the community. You have many friends and "followers" here who are generally interested in how you make it through the next phase and beyond.

God Bless

[Jay Cee]

Zenith, I am very happy for you. Whether he is the one or not... right now, that is irrelevant. Heck, don't even give it much consideration - just enjoy your time together.

As far as this "real woman" issue is concerned: I can't imagine any woman (genetic or trans) actually saying anything about child carrying capabilities on a first date. I could , however, imagine the frightened look on the guy's face if he was told on a first date that she was capable of carrying children.

Whoever you end up settling down with, Zenith, will probably need to be told. It won't be easy to do, but best that it come from you, instead of a third party somewhere down the line.

P.S. -Maybe before a relationship becomes serious, you could have a roundabout conversation with the guy re: transexuals? Kind of like "I had a friend who dated a TS, and didn't even know it...." or however you might put it. It might be a way to get a inkling as to how he might take the news.

[Frances]

As far as this "real woman" issue is concerned: I can't imagine any woman (genetic or trans) actually saying anything about child carrying capabilities on a first date. I could , however, imagine the frightened look on the guy's face if he was told on a first date that she was capable of carrying children.

Awesome! Most guys would run for it.

[Michelle.M]

Awesome! Most guys would run for it.

LOL reminds me of that part in the movie Baby Mama where Tina Fey's character dumps all that out in the first half of the date and ends up getting ditched at the restaurant.

[PortiaHoney]

Congratulations Julie on achieving what some of us aspire to.

It seems a few of the respondents here only lend you more reason to leave this site behind. I wish you all the best for your future life.

The vast majority support you darling.

Take care and good luck. Huggs

[Frances]

It seems a few of the respondents here only lend you more reason to leave this site behind.

I am pretty sure it is just one.

[RebeccaLynne]

RebeccaLynne, I don't think anyone is disputing your point about Julie disclosing her past to the prospective bf, should the thought of marriage and children appear on the horizon, least of all Julie.

Thank you, Reine, for accurately discerning my concerns regarding a possible long-term relationship in Julie's future. I wish her all the happiness life has to offer.

In her OP, Julie clearly stated her need for honesty and openness. She intends to tell him even before they potentially become intimate.

Well, that's better than I managed to. I'd highly recommend she do so. I waited too long to disclose my CD'ing to my GF; and to this day, she brings it up as a "trump card" in arguments, claiming I "deceived her". That is why I suggested a "sooner rather than later" approach. I've learned the hard way. Enduring it to this day, with no perceptible end in sight. My cross to bear.

What you fail to understand is the difficulty transpersons face, in overcoming general society's bias against them; difficulties which are in large part present due to simple ignorance and beliefs in stereotypes. This is not only true for transwomen; it also applies to transmen and even CDers who seek relationships with GGs.

You're entirely correct; we all face the condemnation of violating the "norms" of which society is so vehement in defending.

The best way to overcome such ill-considered and undiscerning bias is to first establish a friendship with someone so that inner qualities will outshine any preconceived ideas, whatever these may be.

Precisely why I waited. Should've "come clean" prior to intimacy, though. My mistake. Not my first, and I'm sure, not my last. Everyday is a learning experience.

Do we need to disclose all on the first date? Surely the answer in a resounding no, else only the people who have histories that fit within the perfect "ideal" would ever make it past the stage of getting to know and starting to care about one another.

I agree. Timing is extremely important, and needs to be adjusted to fit the individual circumstances.

Julie is choosing to establish a relationship with someone else, human to human, with a focus on essential inner qualities which ultimately is a much stronger indicator as to whether or not a relationship will be successful, than someone's past. If a birth GG should get into a relationship with a man knowing she can never have kids, will she be blamed for not telling him on the first date? No. Is it presumptuous of her to assume on the first date that their relationship is headed for marriage and children? Yes. If things develop, they can always make the decision to adopt. Or, if it is a deal breaker, then the prospective groom can decide to move on. I don't see this scenario as being much different than Julie's.

Once again, I'd like to thank you for your input. And your calm, reasoned responses are always a stabilizing influence in the sometimes rancourous dialogues that inevitably transpire here... keeps it interesting!

To all who've participated in this thread, I appreciate your viewpoints and comments... no offense intended on my part, and no animosity held toward those with whom I disagree...

However, I will certainly consider carefully any responses I may have to future threads in this particular section of the site... I'm not here to make enemies.

[Jennifer Marie P.]

Thats great Julie being treated like a woman and hope both of you enjoy the moments.

[linda allen]

Tough crowd!

Yes, Julie is a woman. Now. She is listed as a woman on her drivers licens, SS card, employement, everything. And she has the physical attributes of a woman. She is entitled to live her life as a woman from now on.

Yet she has a past. Not everybody needs to know about her past. Not everybody is entitled to know about her past. Yet, it exists.

If Julie ever enters into a serious relationship with a male (or anyone), she will need to tell him about her past. One, he deserves to know. Two, she will not be able to keep it from him forever. There will be family to meet, old childhood photos, the male name on the birth certificate and diplomas, etc.

Finding out that his girlfriend used to be a man will be pretty shocking for the unsuspecting guy. Tell him too soon and it may turn him off. Wait too long and it will be a matter of a broken trust.

Julie will have to feel this out and decide when and if to tell him. I don't think she's obligated to for a casual relationship, but she should let him know before things get serious. I also think it's an "in person" event, not something that should be e-mailed.

I'm not trying to bring Julie down, it's great that she's had the experience. I'm just trying to be realistic.

[Laurie Ann]

Julie any further date updates how!s it going?

[Zenith]

Julie any further date updates how!s it going?

I really should thank everyone for their kind replies and consideration. Fourth date coming up, my profile page has a pic of me shopping a bit during date number 3. We definitely like each other... Being asked what high school I went to (was an all boys) or about previous boyfriends is getting awkward. I still have no idea how to breach the subject...

[AllieSF]

Julie,

First congratulations on this new experience. It will truly be a learning one, so enjoy it as much as possible. If this one doesn't work out, you will have too many more opportunities in the future. You are attractive, a professional, mature and a very pleasant squirrel (as long as you stay out of my bird feeder!). So, treating this new relationship as a training ground, I would follow your inner feelings and reveal when you think it is necessary. Since you are at that magic number of dates when intimacy starts to become the next phase, I think you know what you have to do. One way to start that conversation could be to find a way to talk about diversity in all shapes and forms and guage his level of acceptance versus tolerance. That may give you some key insights on how he may react. If it goes well with that approach you can then segue into the more important matter at hand. You could ask him how much he really likes you for who you are and then revisit the previous conversation about high schools and why your answer to him then was a little difficult for you to answer completely. You could continue on how you have matured and "changed" since those youthful days and then start to explain your personal maturing and changing process.

As to outcomes from this conversation, I personally would expect the worst and hope for the best. That way you are prepared for the negative reaction and lessen the hurt, and it will hurt. I know the feeling. Make sure you have that conversation in a safe area with no innocent bystanders. A place where your own car is close by just in case he walks out.

As I said, knowing you as I have learned to know you on this site, you will do fine and have many more opportunities to develop a relationship process that will work for you. Now, if you lived closer ......

[Aprilrain]

Being asked what high school I went to (was an all boys) or about previous boyfriends is getting awkward. I still have no idea how to breach the subject...

Yeah just thinking about this sort of thing scares the shit out of me! What did you say! I once read about someone who was deep stealth, she went on a date with a guy who had caught a ride on a submarine while he was in the navy. She had to listen to him go on and on about his brief experience when she had been a submariner for like 15 years at a time when there weren't any female submariners!

[Michelle.M]

Yeah just thinking about this sort of thing scares the shit out of me! What did you say! I once read about someone who was deep stealth, she went on a date with a guy who had caught a ride on a submarine while he was in the navy. She had to listen to him go on and on about his brief experience when she had been a submariner for like 15 years at a time when there weren't any female submariners!

You know, I was thinking the same thing. I'm a combat veteran, both Navy and Army, and I have operated in dozens of countries and nearly been killed 4 times. I figure it's only a matter of time before someone thrills me with his own tales of derring-do. Guess I'd better practice my expression of wide-eyed admiration!

[MarieTS]

Julie-- you are a woman, and owe no one your history. If/when the subject of a family surfaces you simple mention that for medical reasons you can't have children.

[pamela_a]

I really should thank everyone for their kind replies and consideration. Fourth date coming up, my profile page has a pic of me shopping a bit during date number 3. We definitely like each other... Being asked what high school I went to (was an all boys) or about previous boyfriends is getting awkward. I still have no idea how to breach the subject...

You can answer without graphic descriptions. It sounds like you went to a private school and at this age does it really matter about high school? Did you date in school? In a relationship with someone or not. I would think general overviews from that time of your life should suffice unless he want's to verify your resume.

[Aprilrain]

I could see that getting a bit sticky, Pamala, I mean obviously zenith doesn't want to say she went to an all boys school without being ready to tell this guy about her past but I think if she seems too cagey it's going to make him start to wonder if she is hiding something. I would think it was weird if I asked someone a simple question like where did you go to school and they kept evading the question. In my home town everybody knows all the different schools if they're from here so if you went to an all boys school you would have to lie or just not answer the question you could say a private school because that docent answer the question so the next question would be which one.

[7sisters]

Hey Julie! Enjoy it all. Trust your intuition about when to tell. I'm so excited for you.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Hey Julie! Enjoy it all. Trust your intuition about when to tell. I'm so excited for you.

This is literally nothing else you can do about it.

Only you can possibly get a feel for how he will react and at some point you will choose to tell him, or you will break up instead of telling him.....

until then, this hangs over whatever intimacy you are enjoying...pam i think your advice works only for casual relationships...

I'm starting to realize that "stealth living" brings its own set of challlenges and that emotionally its very challenging in a way i did not anticipate.

[Veronica_Jean]

I really should thank everyone for their kind replies and consideration. Fourth date coming up, my profile page has a pic of me shopping a bit during date number 3. We definitely like each other... Being asked what high school I went to (was an all boys) or about previous boyfriends is getting awkward. I still have no idea how to breach the subject...

Julie,

I have not been in this situation and being older it is less of a concern to me. I do think that there is a lot to be said for being all of what makes you who you are. For me that includes all of my history, not just the recent parts. Of course, the pricetag for this can be very high, especially if he cannot see that you are a beatuiful woman with everything any other woman has to offer. I know you experienced this pain before and the best I have to offer is to find the right time to choose if you want this to move forward and take the risk of telling him at least some part of all this. The future may easily involve family, old friends, etc. etc. where the risk of this surfacing is high and not telling or him not being able to realize that is your past can and will becoem a problem.

Everyone has issues in their past, even if they dont' want to admit that. The best part of an intimate couple is sharing all of one another and letting the differences be allowed as part of the relationship. My boss at work was a single divorced mother at a time when that was considered a huge issue! Imagine being afraid to tell a bopyfriend you are divorced and have children. Today, we think of this as not an issue, but 30 years ago, this was huge!

If it is meant to be, it will work out. You are on date 4 and counting..... Remember that your inner turmiol will surface and be detected and possibly interpreted as something else. That in itself can damage the relationship more than knowing the source of the issue and dealing with it, moving closer, or moving apart.

I wish you well and hope this guy is "the one" !

Veronica

[pamela_a]

I could see that getting a bit sticky, Pamala, I mean obviously zenith doesn't want to say she went to an all boys school without being ready to tell this guy about her past but I think if she seems too cagey it's going to make him start to wonder if she is hiding something. I would think it was weird if I asked someone a simple question like where did you go to school and they kept evading the question. In my home town everybody knows all the different schools if they're from here so if you went to an all boys school you would have to lie or just not answer the question you could say a private school because that docent answer the question so the next question would be which one.

I agree to a point April. IF the person if they grew up in the same town/area and knew all of the schools, etc then yes, that could be an issue. I don't believe there will ever be a single perfect answer to any of these questions and each one needs to be evaluated and addressed on an individual basis.
IMO often questions like this need to be answered the in the same way one would answer their young child, with enough information to satisfy the present curiosity without getting too in depth.
Each person's experiences and comfort levels vary. Use your intuition to determine what needs to be said and how. I have often answered questions making statements that are true and accurate yet in such a manner that it allows the person to make their own assumptions. As an example I was at a Dr. appt. for a partially avulsed finger nail. When it got to the point he had to just pull it off he warned me about how much it would hurt. I told him don't worry I have 2 children (a true statement) and could handle pain (also a true statement based on a previous medical issue I had). Both true statements although unrelated yet he drew the conclusion I was talking about the pain of childbirth. Did I lie to him? No, both statements were the truth. Did he draw a logical conclusion connecting the two? He was talking to a woman so he connected the 2 statements into 1 instance.

I believe too often we start out overloading other people talking about ourselves. Granted in a dating situation the dynamic is different and should, at some point, lead to greater detail. Unfortunately I can only hope when I'm faced with that necessity I'll be able to determine it based on our comfort level together and where the relationship appears to be headed.

[AKAMichelle]

I really should thank everyone for their kind replies and consideration. Fourth date coming up, my profile page has a pic of me shopping a bit during date number 3. We definitely like each other... Being asked what high school I went to (was an all boys) or about previous boyfriends is getting awkward. I still have no idea how to breach the subject...

I didn't see a picture of him with you so I can't even comment about him except to say how happy I am for you that you are really putting everything together. You are a very beautiful lady. Even one that I would have been very proud to have on my arms when i was younger. Keep us posted.

[ReineD]

While catching up in this thread and reading about the submarine stories I suddenly gained a powerful realization: if I had been born a genetic male and had had SRS, I would be a much stronger and freer woman than I am. I would believe myself to be capable of doing so many more things than I think myself capable of doing now. The possibilities are astounding and I can't help but feel that I would be so much more confident in my ability to thrive in realms that I was socialized to believe are only accessible to men.

So Julie, please consider this: because of your past experience, you do have enviable inner qualities and strengths that few genetic women possess, and this might be precisely why this guy is attracted to you. We point out the same thing but in reverse to GGs when they first come here after learning of their husband's trans status, wherever it may be. The softer inner qualities the husbands posess are the very things that attracted the GGs to begin with.

So ... maybe your bf will be more open to what you have to tell him than you think. Men are attracted to confident, capable, and accomplished women (just as women are attracted to sensitive men).

I love Allies suggestions for broaching the subject and I would only add one thing. Consider not telling him during a hot and heavy moment when sexual intimacy is imminent, but rather during a more neutral time.

I hope with all my heart that he will be OK with the news.